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Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network


Sabaidee

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It also makes you wonder why we can't lay them down with the same level of effort as they used to.  Why do we need the continuous welded full concrete foundation craziness, when they just some tracks down and paved between them? 

 

 

I hope they keep them for display like they did on East Blvd, or do something symbolically interesting like reusing the steel from the old tracks for the new.

 

Someone who knows more than I do will probably correct me, but the welded rail helps with the ride of the cars as well as reducing maintenance of the track.  Concrete ties also reduce the maintenance requirements.

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Right.    But the cost estimates for this keep zooming upward, and now it is a political hot potato.   Is there no way to just put flipping rails down in the street without it being so much?

 

Yes.  However the major cost as I understand it isn't the laying of the tracks themselves, but the redoing of the utilities under the street. This isn't just a project of putting down some tracks but completely redoing the roadway from the utilities to the sidewalks.  The utility work was projected to be needed soon anyway, it makes sense to do it all at once in this instance, especially since the work would likely cause the streetcar to be out service for that area when it was needed to be done.  It's kinda of the flip of the reasoning for putting in the tracks on Elizabeth when they did. 

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So why is that not a utility cost?   It is to save the utilties money in the long run when they need to repair something, so they don't need to shore up the tracks, so push that on them.  They seem to have enough capacity to have their customers pay for mothballed nuclear plants, etc., why not that?

 

Also, is this a function of the not properly regulating them in the first place so that the utilities are put into the public right of way in an organized way?    It just seems excessive for the transit organization to pay for cleaning up haphazard utilities when both are public needs, but utilities costs can be spread across a much wider base. 

 

 

I suppose it is settled policy, but it is just frustrating to see what seems to be businesses using public right of way on the cheap, and then costing the public a lot of money to clean it up. 

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I wasn't able to get any pictures, but I noticed something that I thought was very cool on Trade street in front of the jail and old city hall. It appears that as crews continue to dig up the street for utility relocation, they have also uncovered and pulled up the rail from the original streetcar line on Trade street. I could be mistaken, but I am fairly sure that is what I saw. I know more tracks were uncovered when East Blvd was redone, and it makes me wonder how much of our original streetcar line is still there under modern city streets. I love this link to another era in Charlotte history. It seems fitting that the old tracks are being removed in order to make way for the relaunch of streetcar service in Charlotte over 75 years later.

Alex

Saw this also, here's a pic (if I can get it to work)

 

i-XwPLsvw-M.jpgi-4489Qjx-M.jpg

Edited by Mobuchu
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Does anyone think we might get a leg up on streetcar or any rail transit from the airport to uptown if say it connected the Charlotte "World Trade Center" to uptown?

The CBJ has a great article about Orr's vision for a rail/air/truck hub. Though I much, much rather see a WTC in uptown. All of these recent articles about the airport suggest the big Push for the authority is basically to develop west Charlotte into a "Crystal City" ..... Which makes me cringe.

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Does anyone think we might get a leg up on streetcar or any rail transit from the airport to uptown if say it connected the Charlotte "World Trade Center" to uptown?

The CBJ has a great article about Orr's vision for a rail/air/truck hub. Though I much, much rather see a WTC in uptown. All of these recent articles about the airport suggest the big Push for the authority is basically to develop west Charlotte into a "Crystal City" ..... Which makes me cringe.

 

A recent study by a transit funding task force has suggested that if a streetcar line is built to the airport, that the line stop just short of reaching it, and that the airport should fund the rest of the connection.

 

With the topic of a Charlotte WTC, I would like to see such a thing built, but I don't have a problem with it being built in uptown nor near the airport. It'll be interesting if it does get built near the airport, and then creates another "city within a city" in Charlotte like University City, Southpark, and Ballantyne. Though, if it gets built in uptown, I always envisioned it utilizing the empty space in 3rd ward, the area currently owned by the Charlotte Pipe and Foundry company. I also wonder if the complex would be a bunch of small buildings, or a single skyscraper/supertall...

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A cunning observation by the kind of person that reads meeting agendas ahead of time (ok, a journalist), caught an interesting change in next week's CLTCC meeting. 

 

The streetcar? It's being referred to as the "CityLYNX Gold Line."

 

Given my preference for the streetcar, it seems like a good change adopting the LYNX branding. For whatever reason, people seem to foam at the mouth and turn into raging lunatics at the mention of the word "Streetcar."

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^Erik Spanberg also wrote about the 'new streetcar debate' in the CBJ. He also intones that the discussion about the streetcar will be recontextualized. The discussion of the CityLYNX Gold Line on Monday will focus on:

 

cost, types of streetcars to be used, alignment and operations; marketing and branding strategies; possible funding; and economic development and tying into the rest of the transit system.

 

 

This shift in rhetoric is WAYYYYY overdue. I am getting the sense that Carlee is much more politically adept than Walton was.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/2013/05/next-on-city-agenda-return-of.html?ana=e_du_pub&s=article_du&ed=2013-05-09&u=jDmEk+CKbYnAvaVfOFOlFGXcGSC

Edited by kermit
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The name CityLynx is an awesome name for streetcar. The name reflects its primary function;?serving the inner city. Where as LRT, as we all know, funnels people from the burbs to the inner city. Hence they proposed LRT for independence & not streetcar; serves a different purpose.

Hopefully the new marketing will help the public understand what is CityLynx, what's its purpose & why it makes sense.

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I just do not buy the "permanence of the rails" argument as it relates to redevelopment around streetcar lines.  Maybe there is some case to be made regarding the positive effect of streetcar on area development, but the permanence of the rails argument is too simplistic and as a result is weak in proving this point. 

 

1.  The argument implies that just because buses can be rerouted, that they are by no means a permanent fixture.  But do any of us really think that Beatties Ford and Central Avenue will, at some point in the future, have all buses routed away leaving those corridors with no public transit options?  Furthermore, if we do accept that all buses can and perhaps will be routed away, how can any of us here argue that the city should spend nearly $1/2 billion to install a streetcar line in corridors that hypothetically could not even support simple bus service?

 

2.  I find it ironic that we argue the merits of streetcar due to it's permanence knowing full well there was a time when it suffered near wholesale abandonment and deconstruction by almost every community that had a streetcar system.  I am not saying that it will suffer a similar fate in the future, but there was a time when streetcar was anything but permanent.

 

By that logic, you can make the argument that nothing is permanent. Streetcars weren't removed because they were ineffective modes of transportation. They were removed because of specific economic interests (Ford, GM, Chrysler) and the fact that they were owned by the power companies that didn't want to operate them anymore (at least in the South). Duke Power was pretty effective at eradicating all of them in the Carolinas.

 

 

 

 

I need to point out one other similarity between the streetcar and LRT. Choice riders will view both streetcar and LRT as a more acceptable mode of transit than the bus.

 

I really dislike buses, but not for 'social' reasons. In an unfamiliar city I will often walk a mile or more to get to rail over an adjacent bus stop. Buses feel slow, my experience with streetcars in Toronto, Hong Kong, Portland and Seattle has been that streetcars 'feel' faster (I know that they are not). My biggest problem with buses is route uncertainty -- in unfamiliar environments I can never be sure that the bus I am boarding is going where I need to be ("will the 86A go to the same place as the 86?") and I can never be sure that a bus will actually arrive to pick me up at the stop where I am waiting (routes can, and do, get moved, sometimes only on specific days of the week). If I am in an unfamiliar place its also hard to know when I have reached my destination on a bus, particularly since they do not stop unless requested. Finally payment is also an obstacle, exact change (how much?), pay on board (on entrance or exit?). Granted all of this is less an issue when you are familiar with a place but, based on my past experience, I am always uncomfortable about 'getting there' when I am on a bus.

 

[do you remember the episode of the Simpsons when Lisa accidentally got on the 22A instead of the 22A and ended up here instead of the Springstonian Museum?]

 

All of this discomfort goes away with rail transit. Although many of these concerns can be addressed more cheaply by a true BRT system (the Sprinter comes close, but ultimately fails to do this).

 

My preferences alone are certainly not justification for spending $400 million on a streetcar. Honestly if the streetcar is extended I would use it at most 2-3 times per month to travel over to Elizabeth and Central ave and spend money (money would have been spent in another part of town anyway). But I do think it would be a sound investment (one that I am willing to contribute to) if the presence of a streetcar would encourage commuters to take advantage of transit and then produce a dense urban corridor -- honestly I think the streetcar might do that.

 

In short, speed is not the only thing that makes transit a success (IMO). Is the streetcar similar to the blue line? I would suggest that the Blue Line's greatest success has been in the area where it has a streetcar-like stop density (between East-West and Carson). The Blue Line has yet to generate any landuse change where it runs faster (I am not optimistic about LRT related 'redevelopment' beyond Sugar Creek on the BLE)

 

Do you think that a bus with a route fixed by overhead catenary cables would accomplish the same thing (eg: the electric Muni buses in San Francisco) ?

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My friend will do everything to avoid the bus. She takes LRT all the time. & that's for the simple reason she doesn't know what to do... She gets nervous being the only person & she doesn't get the numbers or exactly know where they go.

Are conventioneers, tourist & suburban locals really going to want to figure what to do in the transit center?

CityLynx & the Blue line are going to better help integrate uptown, SouthEnd, Elizabeth, Gateway, Plaza & NoDa. Parking at say Dairy Queen to stroll Plaza is different than taking rail & stepping off to bustling plaza.

Rails, it seems are supposed to link attractions, offices or destinations. Buses are supposed, it seems, to serve the the inside of neighborhoods as opposed to through the neighborhood.

The rail lines can have big signs pointing towards Plaza, NoDa, UNCC, etc.

We're never gonna reach that next step if we don't integrate the 'hoods. I just can't see conventioneers hopping on a bus to Plaza as opposed to CityLynx.

(I like CATS buses fwiw)

Edited by AirNostrumMAD
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Do you think that a bus with a route fixed by overhead catenary cables would accomplish the same thing (eg: the electric Muni buses in San Francisco) ?

 

Its really a matter of route density. If one bus route had catenary then yes, It would accomplish the same thing for me. However in a situation like SF there are so many electric bus routes it is not possible to get a clear vision of origins and destinations of specific routes -- so electric buses are just as 'stress inducing' for tourists as fossil-fuel buses. FWIW the streetcar (tram) network in Melbourne was also stress inducing for me since it has so many different overlapping routes that the presence of rails alone does not provide much information about where you will end up if you hop on the next tram.

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Its really a matter of route density. If one bus route had catenary then yes, It would accomplish the same thing for me. However in a situation like SF there are so many electric bus routes it is not possible to get a clear vision of origins and destinations of specific routes -- so electric buses are just as 'stress inducing' for tourists as fossil-fuel buses. FWIW the streetcar (tram) network in Melbourne was also stress inducing for me since it has so many different overlapping routes that the presence of rails alone does not provide much information about where you will end up if you hop on the next tram.

 

I agree to an extent. When you are in downtown SF it is confusing, but in the rest of the city where there is less over lap it is much less daunting. I think it will be many decades before Charlotte's streetcar system is mature enough to have lines that over lap to make it confusing. To that end, I would argue that any robust transit system (London, New York, Paris etc) is confusing.

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The Charlotte 3030 Plan

 

I think it will be many decades before Charlotte's streetcar system is mature enough to have lines that over lap to make it confusing. To that end, I would argue that any robust transit system (London, New York, Paris etc) is confusing.

tokyo-subway-map.gif

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The Observer's article on the 'new' streetcar plan to be presented tomorrow night is out. Not much we haven't already heard (e.g. CityLYNX Gold Line rebranding) but there were a couple of tidbits:

 

It’s believed that a major part of Carlee’s new streetcar funding plan will call for the city to again seek a grant from the Federal Transit Administration.

 

It’s unclear what local money will be used for the project. Carlee has suggested it won’t come from a property tax increase.

 

The article also mentioned shifting funds from the existing Gold Rush to the "Gold Line" for fund operating expenses.

 

I am impressed with Carlee so far, if he can pull a rabbit out of his 'hat' for the streetcar extension I'll be ready to anoint the man Pope of the Piedmont.

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/05/12/4037863/new-charlotte-streetcar-plan-coming.html

Edited by kermit
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The Observer's article on the 'new' streetcar plan to be presented tomorrow night is out. Not much we haven't already heard (e.g. CityLYNX Gold Line rebranding) but there were a couple of tidbits:

 

 

The article also mentioned shifting funds from the existing Gold Rush to the "Gold Line" for fund operating expenses.

 

I am impressed with Carlee so far, if he can pull a rabbit out of his 'hat' for the streetcar extension I'll be ready to anoint the man Pope of the Piedmont.

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/05/12/4037863/new-charlotte-streetcar-plan-coming.html

I really have to stop reading the comments section of the Charlotte Observer.

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I wonder if there will be a nice surprise, other than what we all know. I'd be interested to know how ambitious the plan is (2.5 miles or the whole thing)

I wonder how much traffic the airport would boost ridership for the Gold line. Obviously our airport is large because of primarily connecting Passengers *but our airport has a huge labor force also to service those Passengers.

And as always when discussing the streetcar and transit in general , I will try my absolute best not go off topic about spurs to Ballantyne, Southpark, etc so I'll leave it on that note ;)

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Well, I thought the recent discussion has been to pursue a longer term plan.  I like the updated branding which distinguishes it while still associating it with the Lynx and the Gold Rush, which are both successful.  It also does make sense to be selected at this point, given that the starter line is under construction.

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Charlotte’s controversial streetcar extension appears to have a good chance of being approved after new City Manager Ron Carlee said Monday the city could pay for it without a property tax increase.

 

Carlee’s plan for the $126 million streetcar extension calls for the federal government to pay for half of the construction costs, with the city using surplus money to cover the rest.

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/05/13/4039939/streetcar-gets-boost-from-city.html

Edited by kermit
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Great. Finally some seemingly good news.

Just wish the end of the line of the 2nd segment went a little further into Plaza

Edit; 2020 seems like such a long time for the 2nd segment to be complete. 7 years... I guess I should pretend the Silver line doesn't exist then

Edited by AirNostrumMAD
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