Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[ah59396]

I'm really liking this Carlee.

[rugger62]

So the comments on the Disturber make me feel like this is still going to be an uphill battle. I thought that the long term economics of the Gold Line were in the best interests of the city, reducing pollution being one of the main drivers. Isn't the $3.3 million annual operating cost less than the operating cost for the bus routes on these lines too?

 

Anyone have a link to the plan? Of course the observer didn't post it, and I'm not sure where it is in the 740 other comments on this thread.

[Dale]

I got the impression that this has the council votes to go forward.

[SouthEndCLT811]

I got the impression that this has the council votes to go forward.

 

Same here.  Based on the article it sounds like the streetcar needed one council member to change their vote and Cannon might be that man.  In the Observer article it shows modern streetcars, is that what the proposal entails?  I wasn't sure if this new plan was similar to Mayor Foxx's that would include upgrades or if this would still utilize the trolly.

 

Also agree with rugger, I'd like to know the current operating cost of buses on this route.  Funny how the article makes it sound like operating cost right now is $0 and the $3.3 million is an all new expense.

Edited May 14, 2013 by SouthEndCLT811

[MilZ]

So the comments on the Disturber make me feel like this is still going to be an uphill battle. I thought that the long term economics of the Gold Line were in the best interests of the city, reducing pollution being one of the main drivers. Isn't the $3.3 million annual operating cost less than the operating cost for the bus routes on these lines too?

 

The comments in the Observer are usually the same 3 people, who always seem bitter about mass transit because a handfull of people don't pay. All of their other opinions go in about the exact same pattern, and they like to restate their case all day instead of working...

 

Ok the last bit was just how I pictured them.

[kermit]

So the comments on the Disturber make me feel like this is still going to be an uphill battle.

 

nah, Observer comments are completely meaningless. There was the same level of vitriol in support of the transit tax repeal back in 2007, ultimately 70% of voters supported keeping the tax. 

 

While I am very glad there is some positive momentum behind the project now I am concerned by the additional risk that the federal grant strategy will bring. The previous expansion plan assumed that federal support was not possible for the streetcar (thus the 100% local funding). I know that the FTA has rewritten its new starts guidelines to place more emphasis on landuse change, liveability  and development, but I was not clear on how big that shift was. I really do hope Carlee et al. have done their due diligence on federal funding, even with mayor Foxx driving the DOT the Gold line won't see a dime of federal money if the project does not meet current funding guidelines.

[ah59396]

What are the credentials for federal funding?  Are they based off a combination of ridership numbers and economic impact?  I would have to believe that this sector could potentially garner some strong numbers in both those regards, even considering the relatively short nature of the line.

[SouthEndCLT811]

I wondered about Federal funding too but Carlee seems pretty confident that we'd get the support.

 

Democrat Michael Barnes, who voted against the streetcar last year, pressed Carlee on what would happen if Charlotte doesn’t get federal help.

“If we couldn’t get federal funds, I wouldn’t recommend using these funds,” he said.

After the meeting, Barnes declined to comment on the proposal. 

 

I also broke down the cost to operate the line.  To break even with $3.3M operating cost over 365 days we'd need approx. 4,500 daily riders at $2 per ride.  I tried to find ridership numbers for the bus lines currently in place but didn't find much.  I found meeting minutes from a Plaza-Midwood meeting a few years ago that said there are 5,000 daily riders down Central through PM on the #9 bus.  If that's the case then I think that funding daily operations of the line through that neighborhood should be fairly easy if we can get the money to build it.  But that's more 2020 and beyond planning than what is currently up for debate.

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/05/13/4039939/streetcar-gets-boost-from-city.html#storylink=cpy

Edited May 14, 2013 by SouthEndCLT811

[kermit]

What are the credentials for federal funding?  Are they based off a combination of ridership numbers and economic impact?  I would have to believe that this sector could potentially garner some strong numbers in both those regards, even considering the relatively short nature of the line.

 

Until recently federal transit funding decisions were based primarily on a combination of expected travel time savings, foretasted ridership and cost. Since streetcars don't produce significant travel time savings over buses they were rarely funded

 

Summaries of the new / small starts program talk about the funding criteria revision like this:

 

New guidelines for evaluating project proposals will feature an increased emphasis on livability measures such as economic development opportunities, connection of land use, and environmental benefits. 

 

"We're going to free our flagship transit capital program from long-standing requirements that have allowed us to only green-light projects that meet very narrow cost and performance criteria," said LaHood. "Instead, as we evaluate major transit projects going forward, we'll consider all the factors that help communities reduce their carbon footprint, spur economic activity and relieve congestion."

 

 

http://www.planning.org/policy/newsmallstarts.htm  Hopefully folks here who do this stuff for a living can flesh out the details.

 

Assuming CATS and the City can pull off the BLE and the Streetcar starter without major incident or overrun I do think the city can put together a compelling application for federal funding.

Edited May 14, 2013 by kermit

[tozmervo]

In FY2011, per the most recent CTSP, Route 7 had about 1.2 Million boardings, Route 9 had about 1.5 Million boardings. So at full build-out (which I'm not sure is the assumption for the $3.3 million operating number), the CityLYNX would be drawing about $5.4 million a year from FULL FARE boarders, not accounting for reduced ticket boarders.

[kermit]

Erik Spanberg has a nice long article on the new streetcar plan in the CBJ. http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/2013/05/charlotte-streetcar-by-any-other.html?ana=e_clt_rdup&page=all

 

Not a ton of new information but I'll quote a couple passages:

 

“There is no assurance, but our assessment is that we can compete very favorably (for federal grants),” Carlee told council.

 

Operating money would not be needed before 2019 or 2020, when the 2.5-mile span would likely open. To meet that deadline, construction must start in 2014 or 2015. 

 

Later this week, the economic development will learn the details of an updated study by consultant BAE outlining the economic benefits of adding the streetcar.

 

 

Some concern was noted at Council about the State's response to the proposal (e.g. the 'magical appearance' of $63 million from the city budget)

 

The article also noted that the remaining 6 miles of the streetcar project would be the responsibility of the MTC rather than the city (although I don't think there was attribution for that point).

Edited May 14, 2013 by kermit

[ajfunder]

Same here. Based on the article it sounds like the streetcar needed one council member to change their vote and Cannon might be that man. In the Observer article it shows modern streetcars, is that what the proposal entails? I wasn't sure if this new plan was similar to Mayor Foxx's that would include upgrades or if this would still utilize utilize the trolly. [qoute]

 

the Foxx proposal included the purchase of 7 modern streetcar vehicles, I assume that is the same for the Carlee proposal.

Edited May 14, 2013 by ajfunder

[kermit]

To his great credit Ron Carlee attended the Smart Growth panel discussion (sponsored by Plan Charlotte and the City) at the UNCC uptown building tonight. Carlee brought copies of the Gold Line City Manager's recommendation memo. Most of it made it into the press but I'll mention some highlights:

 

• "To date the project has been referred to generically as the "streetcar". The CityLYNX Gold Line is not a novelty, tourist attraction, but an integral part of the approved transit plan, supporting economic development and connections to employment and activity centers. It is a rail project literally linking the Blue and Red Lines." [sic]
• "The compelling reason to advance the CityLYNX Gold Line at this time is the potential for federal funding in a highly competitive process. If federal funds are not awarded, the timing of CityLYNX Gold Line will have to be reevaluated in the context of the larger challenges around funding for the 2030 Transit Plan."
• [on the use of the replica trolley's for the starter segment] The replica trolley's will be replaced with modern vehicles in Phase 2 [the extension currently being debated]. "The city is particularly interested in considering the use of emerging hybrid technology. Use of the replica vehicles on Phase 1 provides time for the hybrid technology to evolve before larger investment decisions have to be made." ... "With the completion of CityLYNX Gold Line Phase 2, the system will shift to seven new modern streetcar vehicles with an option to use hybrid technology."
• The BAE economic development report will report that the incremental property tax revenue generated by the Gold line [phasing is not clear from the document] could range from $4.7 million to $7.0 million per year by 2035 [this is significantly less than I had imagined]
• The $126 million phase 2 budget is in current dollars. Costs are expected to increase between 4.75% for roadway components and 6.3% for steel, rail, shelters and vehicles per year of delay.
• Three possible federal grant sources and one federal loan program are mentioned as possible funding sources: TIGER grants (the small maximum size of the grants was not mentioned in the memo, deadline of June 3, 2013 was mentioned); New Starts (process would require a minimum of five years to FFGA); Small Starts (maximum grant of $75 million, no time line mentioned in memo); "The city will also explore federal capital funding using the Transportation Infrastructure Finance and innovation Act (TIFIA). TIFIA loans leverage federal resources and stimulate private capital investment in transportation infrastructure by providing credit assistance to projects of national or regional significance. A local government can apply to TIFIA loans for more than one project."

[southslider]

^Ok, so that addresses the capital cost, IF the Feds cover 50%.  But what about on-going operating costs?  Evidently (see below link), the Gold Rush is on its last legs.  That rubber-tired "trolley" is funded 50-50 between Uptown interests and CATS.

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/news/pressreleases/Pages/050413.aspx

 

So if Uptown can't even cough up $300,000 a year for the Gold Rush, what makes anyone seriously think Uptown will help cover $3,000,000 a year for the "Gold Line"?

[kermit]

^ Here is what Carlee's memo said about operating costs:

 

funding for operations will be provided from a variety of sources including ridership fares, advertising, naming rights, and potentially some for of property based value capture revenue from sources such as TIF districts, Special Assessment Districts or Municipal Service Districts. These funds will not be needed until 2019 at the earliest. The city will continue to work with the MTC for new sources of transit funding. If we are not successful in expanding funding, the city will need to incorporate the operating costs of the Gold line into its budget by FY2020.

 

Sounds a bit like Carlee is saying that operating costs are not his problem....

[Urbanity]

^ I don't get that feeling at all.  To me it sounds like Carlee is proposing ways to pay for the operating costs outside of just taxpayers which along with taxpayer cost for building has been the criticism against the project.

[dubone]

I suspect that operating costs are somewhat similar (maybe a bit more for maintenance) compared to the Gold Rush.  Diesel costs go down, as electricity is significantly cheaper than gas (as those who have looked into plug-in vehicles have observed), but then they have larger vehicles and additional costs for maintaining the wires and the tracks.  

 

If they do switch to ticket sales, versus fare-free, then that covers a lot of the operating expenses.  So it isn't a matter of being 'not his problem', but it is significantly more solvable than the capital costs.

 

Overall, I am impressed by the points made.   Those familiar with the project for a while can often forget some of them.  I especially like the point that it is part of the approved transit plan.  McCrory's disdain for the project clouds the fact that this is part of what he promised could be delivered within the 1/2c sales tax, which turned out to not be true.   Just because the revenues expected didn't materialize does not suddenly make the project unimportant.  

 

The idea in this new plan exactly addresses my complaint with Walton's plan, which is that it ignores the potential for federal funds.   By pursuing that, it both satisfies some of the politician's desire to let the decision be made by others (the feds, as part of their competition for funds), but then once the feds fund it, the line has sufficient momentum to carry through to completion.  It is the same as what happened with the Blue Line.  Many people were opposed to it until it was funded by the feds, and then it had enough momentum to get finished without issue.  The opponents had a hissy fit and got it onto a referendum, but by then the public had confidence in the line because it was funded and built.   The same will be for the Gold line assuming it wins those federal funds. 

[kermit]

sorry, I should have included more of the memo (I got tired of typing). What follows is the paragraph on the magnitude of the expected operating costs (costs are for the 4 mile line, not the starter line)

 

Annual operating cost in the first year of operation is estimated to be $3.3 million to support vehicle operations, basic equipment maintenance, and safety and security. An additional approximately $1.0 million per year will be required to build a capital maintenance reserve to perform regular vehicle overhauls every five years and mid-life overhauls every 15 years.

 

Unfortunately this operating cost appears to be almost exactly one order of magnitude higher than for the gold rush.

[tozmervo]

When this powerball jackpot is mine Saturday night, I'll pitch some the city's way for the Gold Line. 

 

#comeonkarma

[ah59396]

I always thought about how it'd be nice if we had a Bill Gates type billionaire from Charlotte interested in transit. The guy could basically give us a system rivaling Tokyo and still have money to spare!

[southslider]

I suspect that operating costs are somewhat similar (maybe a bit more for maintenance) compared to the Gold Rush. 

 

Not exactly.  Gold Rush costs about $700,000 a year to operate, while the 4-mile Gold Line (1.5-mile starter line, plus 2.5-mile Phase II) will cost $3.3 million a year to operate.  Granted, CATS only pays for half of the Gold Rush, while Uptown partners pay the other half.  If these Uptown interests are currently falling short on the bargain-priced Gold Rush, how will they ever support the significantly richer Gold Line?

 

And if TIF and MSD are the solution to operating costs, then why not use such funding model sooner on the starter line?  All that empty land in Elizabeth Village should be in TIF today, so any new development will actually help operate the starter line.  And Uptown has an MSD that could help pay for the starter line's operating costs, as well.  But in reality, Uptown will never pay more, when City taxpayers will.

[Third Strike]

I'm not sure if this is an old picture or not, but here's a pretty cool rendering of the CityLynx:

 

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/05/16/4046147/consultant-streetcar-could-spark.html

Edited May 17, 2013 by Third Strike

[Niner National]

Not exactly.  Gold Rush costs about $700,000 a year to operate, while the 4-mile Gold Line (1.5-mile starter line, plus 2.5-mile Phase II) will cost $3.3 million a year to operate.  Granted, CATS only pays for half of the Gold Rush, while Uptown partners pay the other half.  If these Uptown interests are currently falling short on the bargain-priced Gold Rush, how will they ever support the significantly richer Gold Line?

 

And if TIF and MSD are the solution to operating costs, then why not use such funding model sooner on the starter line?  All that empty land in Elizabeth Village should be in TIF today, so any new development will actually help operate the starter line.  And Uptown has an MSD that could help pay for the starter line's operating costs, as well.  But in reality, Uptown will never pay more, when City taxpayers will.

Hard to believe that with tracks in the ground and work going on to build the rest of the starter line that there haven't been any announcements for Elizabeth.

 

My parents, who are not urbanites at all, had brunch with me at Custom Shop last weekend and even they commented on how much potential that part of town had.

[dubone]

Not exactly.  Gold Rush costs about $700,000 a year to operate, while the 4-mile Gold Line (1.5-mile starter line, plus 2.5-mile Phase II) will cost $3.3 million a year to operate.  Granted, CATS only pays for half of the Gold Rush, while Uptown partners pay the other half.  If these Uptown interests are currently falling short on the bargain-priced Gold Rush, how will they ever support the significantly richer Gold Line?

 

And if TIF and MSD are the solution to operating costs, then why not use such funding model sooner on the starter line?  All that empty land in Elizabeth Village should be in TIF today, so any new development will actually help operate the starter line.  And Uptown has an MSD that could help pay for the starter line's operating costs, as well.  But in reality, Uptown will never pay more, when City taxpayers will.

 

So does that mean the real operating costs of the Gold Rush are $1.4m, with CATS paying only $700k?   The Gold Rush ends at 6p or so and not on weekends, so running until 1a and adding Saturday and Sunday is almost double the operating hours.   As much as I have waited for the Gold Rush, I would also suspect frequency increases with this line, and with Phase II, capacity certainly increases a lot. 

 

So yes, it costs more, but when you break it down, that is really because this project adds more, and they are really in the same ballpark, since running the Gold Rush at that frequency, operating hours and anywhere close to that capacity would be closer to $3m than $700k.

 

 Regardless, even if double the operating costs, the ridership boost from not being a POS rickety faux trolley seems to warrant any higher costs. 

[southslider]

^No, the real costs of the Gold Rush are $700K, or one fifth the annual costs of Gold Line.