Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[Guest]

^No, the real costs of the Gold Rush are $700K, or one fifth the annual costs of Gold Line.

Read his breakdown. Based on the service used, the hours and days of service and the frequency, it would be a comparable price per unit.

[southslider]

^Look at Uptown's lack of financial support of not just the Gold Rush, but even the Starter Project. If there isn't any MSD or TIF now, why later?

[dubone]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/04/23/3999074/tryon-street-gold-rush-service.html

 

Both Gold Rush lines combine to cost $1.5m annually.  The Gold Rush Red line currently runs 3.3 mi on most of the 4 mi CityLynx Phase II route with 15 min frequency over 11.5h/day.   The Gold Rush Orange line runs at 12 mins over only 1.5 mi.  

 

That means the Red line runs 46 trips over 3.3mi for a total of 151.8 miles per day, with the Orange line running 55trips over 1.5 miles for 82.5 miles per day.  The Gold Rush Red line has significantly more riders, so it makes sense that the resources have been allocated more to the Gold Rush Red Line.   Proportionally, it is 65% of the operating miles, so likely 65% of the combined operating costs, or $970k for the Gold Rush Red Line. 

 

The CityLynx Phase II is a slightly longer at 4 mi, which is 21% longer distance.  Running at the same operating hours as the other Lynx and bus routes, would put it on the 20 hour Lynx schedule of 5:30a to 1:30a or 82% longer.  Extrapolating the current Gold Rush Red Line costs to that distance and operating hours, would bring it to $2.14m for comparison purposes.  

 

It isn't clear how many Gold Rush Red line vs CityLynx II vehicles there are, but the long term plans for the streetcar show 15min frequency in off peak and 7.5-10 min frequency during rush hour.  Rush hour for the Blue line is 6-9a and 4-6p, so 5 hours a day.  That would add another factor of 25% trips from the higher frequency over the course of the day.  Now the comparison number is $2.67m for the extrapolated Gold Rush Red line costs.

 

Then comes the modern streetcar vehicles in Phase II, which have a passenger capacity of 117 riders compared to the 28 capacity of the Optima replica trolleys in use now for the gold rush.  That is a 418% increase in capacity, for which it would cost the Gold Rush line $11.5m to provide, which of course now brings us to a meaningless number.  

http://www.nabusind.com/Optima/streetcar-diesel-specs.htm

 

Bottom line is, yes, the currently designed Gold Rush [Moonbounce for Bankers] costs just under a $1m in annual operation, but with the CityLynx, you have a high capacity, smooth-operating, electrically [clean] vehicles running longer distances, longer times, and higher frequencies coming to $3.3m.   3.5x the operating costs, yet dozens of times the value to the community, not even mentioning the intangible benefits.  

[southslider]

Gold Rush lines will be cut in half this July because Uptown can't (or won't) cover half the current cost. The City will have to absorb the operating cost of the Starter Line.

[dubone]

The problem with the Gold Rush is that it is unconventional.  It is a fare-free system offering many people short rides to circulate around downtown.  As transit, it is very useful during the day, despite being an uncomfortable ride.  Both Gold Rush lines are the highest ridership in the entire CATS system, but most of those riders only ride for 1/2 mile.   Many of the riders are atypical transit riders and otherwise would not be people who set foot on a bus. 

 

Fare free systems like that are often hard to swallow the operating subsidies because you cover the whole cost, with none born by the actual users.  The greater good is served by getting more and more riders on, which is proven by the success.

 

It is not determined yet if the Gold Line would be fare free, but it would really be smart if they did.   

[southslider]

If there truly is $63 million laying around (nice accounting trick by the way), then Phase II could end at Gateway without any Federal grant necessary. Granted, operating costs would still require some huge new subsidy.

[ajfunder]

So the vote on the streetcar phase 2 may take place tomorrow. Apparently, the city may apply for a Tiger grant with or without council support, just for different amounts of money. If phase 2 wins council support, the city will apply for $63 million for half the cost of extending the streetcar line a total of 2.5 miles, for the purchase of 7 modern streetcars, and for the modification of the starter project stations for the modern vehicles. If the streetcar line doesn't receive council support the city may still apply for a smaller $24 million grant to extend the line 0.5 miles to the Gateway station site, purchase three modern streetcar vehicles, and alter stations for the modern vehicles. As a side note, the feds can still consider this alternative even if the city applys for the full $63 million. They can also have the option to just fund 3 modern vehicles and station modifications for the starter project, but that is unlikely to be considered.

 

The city will also be applying for funds to expand more of the south corridor stations to three car trains. WSOC reported it this way, "But that grant application is also causing controversy. City Councilman Michael Barnes said he believes it could hurt the city's chance of getting money from the same grant pool to add a third track to the Lynx Blue Line."  Either Michael Barnes or WSOC (most likely the latter mixed up a fact). Either way it made me laugh. I personally believe the city should shoot for the stars and apply for both, it can't hurt.

Alex

Edited May 27, 2013 by ajfunder

[15895]

3rd Lynx Track?

[ajfunder]

^I know right, good old Charlotte reporting.

[15895]

I hate the observer;

http://m.charlotteobserver.com/charlotte/db_97739/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=mrGYCkvo

They refer to it as "Trolley line" over and over again... With the headline reading "Council could vote on trolley grant bid"

...

[RVA2CLT]

3rd Lynx Track?

 

It's going to be for the Lynx Express from 485 to CTC to handle all rush hour and special event volume.

It will incorporate 4 cars and be the first mag-Lev light rail line.

Part of the The 2090 plan.

[dubone]

During the last TIGER process, the city got both the 3-car stations upgrades AND the streetcar starter money, so I think the feds are correctly weighing all projects by merit.

 

Surely the city council will not back away from this option, after so many nearly supported paying for the whole project by themselves.  Also, it would likely embarrass Foxx with a sort of no-confidence vote if they voted it down again at this stage.   It is a protected move politically, as it is really just voting to submit for federal funds.

 

For me, personally, I like that there is an option for the lesser project to Graham, as I rarely go west of Graham on the current Gold Rush.  It is also a more proper starter line to cover more of the heart of downtown, although the full 4-mile line is still obviously better for grabbing the share of Gold Rush passengers from Gateway Village as well as the adding Midwood and the West End to the rail system.

[ajfunder]

And Charlotte media does it again. Sorry to nit pick, but these little errors do change public opinion, especially when you just magnified the cost 5x and they do hurt the chances of public support on this project .WCNC: "The starter project is currently under construction in uptown and Elizabeth with the help of a $125 million federal loan."

 

Also Clare Fallon: "I've been called everything...and threatened, and screamed at by council people in public." How did she get into office. She dramatizes everything, simply because people don't agree and they try to explain their point doesn't mean they are threatening you.

 

 

Alex

Edited May 28, 2013 by ajfunder

[tozmervo]

And with a 7-4 vote, the City Council has given Ron Carlee the go-ahead to pursue matching grant funding to build "Phase II" of the Gold Line, which would extend the line west past JCSmith to French Street and east past Independence to Sunnyside Ave.

 

Dulin, Cooksey, Fallon, and Barnes voted agin' it. Wouldn't be surprised to see Patrick Cannon (who is supposedly announcing his mayoral candidacy tomorrow) run on it as a major platform piece. Even Foxx had a surprise appearance - could be the last meeting he attends before being confirmed as the Secretary of Transportation.

[15895]

PRAISEEEE Them!!!!! Oh lord, this issue has bee tearing at me seemingly forever.

I just knew it wasn't going to pass and I was ready to rip out my hair. Patrick Cannon will have a great history (or any mayor of Charlotte - the Hornets will be back, the park & Knights will be brand new, the streetcar & Blue line projects will most likely be complete before the next mayor resigns (or loses), hopefully transformational projects (talk about ripping hair out....) etc.

This is excellent news

[Norm2]

I am so glad that it has FINALLY passed! I have been refreshing the Observer website and they don't have anything in their headlines. Those beotchs! LOL!

[HopHead]

And for a good laugh, please check out the Charlotte Observer comments tomorrow morning on any article that revolves around the Gold line. It will be sure to bring out the best in all the "Don't spend a dime of my tax money on mass transit because we'll turn into Detroit and will be overrun with crime" crowd. 

 

Anyone know how long Carlee has to apply for the grant?

[tozmervo]

I think there are multiple grants they can pursue, at least that was implied. TIGER grants are due this Friday.

[ajfunder]

He has until Friday for the Tiger, but I believe the paperwork is ready to go.

Edited May 29, 2013 by ajfunder

[dubone]

That is such a relief that they went along with it, mostly because this would traditionally be a no-brainer for Charlotte in its pursuit of growth and getting to the next level, but we seem to have more and more people and politicians that are starting to want to apply the brakes on everything.

 

I was in Ybor City in Tampa the other day, and they have replica streetcars almost the same as ours (a different color scheme, but otherwise the same), and I was reminded that there is actually a decent chance that tourists might actually hop on the streetcars just because they're there and seem old.  Yes, ours will go down a path that has almost nothing old left along it, but it is still a nice sample of Charlotte buildings that tourists may want to see:

- TWC Arena

- Row of anitque buildings at Trade and Brevard

- Federal Reserve (it's not all that attractive, but it is a symbol of the banking city we are/were)

- 1920s City Hall

- 1920s County Courthouse

- Great Aunt Stella Center in a century-old church

- Little Sugar Creek Greenway/ Captain Jack statue

- Central High School

- Halton Theater at CPCC (not historic, but some visitors will like the arts)

- Historic houses and active storefronts on Elizabeth Ave

- Visulite Theater

- Belk House

- Presbyterian Hospital (1940s brick hospital)

- Independence Park

 

We often think primarily in terms of economic activity for commuters, but there may very well be people who ride the streetcar for enjoyment.  It isn't like this has the historic charm of Ybor City, but it is certainly an area that will give visitors a view of Charlotte and Elizabeth that they'll want to see.   If you think that would be odd because we take it for granted, I'll tell you of the people who take segway and van tours of the city already when they come here.  Riding a replica trolley on the starter Gold line may very well draw tourists as well.

[Urbanity]

^ I fully agree.  I said something along the lines of the tourism angle for the old cars a while ago.  

[southslider]

Let's just hope it's also a no-brainer for Uptown stakeholders to continue paying for the operations of Gold Line as was done for Gold Rush. Otherwise, Charlotte taxpayers will end up with the bill, or the frequency won't even match Gold Rush.

Edited May 29, 2013 by southslider

[dubone]

^ I fully agree.  I said something along the lines of the tourism angle for the old cars a while ago.  

 

Yeah. I'm sure most of the topics have been hashed a few times.  It was just fresh on my mind again after visiting Ybor with the same vehicles.   Unfortunately the light rail totally took away the touristy angle of the previous Charlotte Trolley line a decade ago, and some of that money spent was superceded and many of the civic volunteers that put efforts into building up the link to history have lost the faith.  It is almost an anomaly now that the Trolley museum is in SouthEnd, whereas that had real momentum a while back, and even caused some of the early interest in South End, even with the creation of the neighborhood out of Wilmore and Dilworth as its own 'place'.

 

Let's hope that some of that magic can come back and be redirected to Elizabeth, and the sections of First and Second Wards near Trade which are fairly dead outside of the government land uses.

 

I totally agree that some of the operating subsidies are really important for keeping it a fare-free line so that uptown can benefit most from  hop-on-hop-off riders circulating and supporting businesses that have limited parking. 

[kermit]

I do wonder if Raleigh will find a way to throw a tantrum about the current funding plan.

[dubone]

Most of the state politicians are not that petty to shy away from a federal grant won in a competition with national projects.  That vetting process is often enough gravitas to prevent people from truly stopping a project (although they have grandstanded a bit recently).

 

The streetcar was in the long term transit plan that McCheese promised as the benefit of the transit tax he pitched and long supported.  The problem is, they did not project for a life altering recession and significant shift to online shopping exempt from sales taxes (for now).  It isn't that we are allocating more resources to transit than originally planned (other than by way of inflation because of overpromising how quickly the plan would be built), it is that those taxpayers are avoiding the taxes by online shopping and because they/we did not spend as much money shopping during the recession.  

 

We will not have very many options anymore to have dedicated right of way rail transit in this city beyond the blue line and red lines.   The Red line has proved how difficult it is to put even infrequent rail transit on a freight corridor, even though to the airport and possibly other areas, that is an enticing prospect.   That means we have one remaining option for urban rail transit, streetcars/trams.   I seriously hope that both the starter line and the possible first extension help prove to people that these are viable and reasonable modern transit lines.  If they aren't, then we will need to come up with a funding plan for much more expensive dedicated right of way light rail projects.   Doing nothing or building freeways only is not a wise plan for the next generation of growth in this city.