Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[rugger62]

speaking of lynx track, has anyone noticed how messed up South Blvd is at Old Pineville? something is going to have to be fixed there in the near future.

[go_vertical]

It's funny that you mention that because I had to swerve pretty agressively just yesterday to avoid that spot. It looks like the concrete bordering the tracks now sits a couple of inches below the asphalt. It just recently got like that too.

[dubone]

Guys, call 311 not strangers on the internet.  

 

We may have had a corrupt weak-mayor, but it doesn't mean our city doesn't fix pot holes or dangerous flaws that just require some minor patching.  

[cltbwimob]

while streetcars can generally use LRT tracks, LRT units can not always use streetcar tracks. LRT vehicles are heavier than streetcars have a wider turning radius. Streetcar tracks are not usually built to LRT specifications.

I am not an engineer but my glances at our streetcar track construction suggest that they could not support the weight of our LRT equipment. (the streetcar rails are not supported by multiple concrete ties per foot like the blue line, instead the streetcar tracks have steel supports for the rails every 5 feet or so)

EDIT: In theory the streetcar starter project could run from Presby to the arena loop, up to the LRT tracks and then down to 9th st station. In practice I think the loop around the arena is only built to accommodate infrequent traffic due to at grade crossings and pedestrian conflict.

I'm not sure if the tracks can handle LRT vehicles or not, but the width of the LRT trains may be wider than streetcar and the tracks (and stop platforms) may not be designed for that width. It would be interesting if someone in the know could clarify this...

Per a conversation I had with one of the CATS engineers, the Gold Line streetcar tracks are designed to support the Siemens S70 ultrashort. The Siemens S70 ultrashort is approximately 10 ft shorter and about 6000 lbs lighter than current Lynx S70 vehicles but about 15 feet longer and much heavier than a standard streetcar. (Actually, he told me that the track could support the weight of the current Lynx vehicles but the turns were a little too tight for the regular length S70 to work.). The cool thing about the S70 ultrashort is that it comes in a streetcar version with no coupler, or a light rail version with couplers...other than the couplers, they are the same vehicle. In fact, Salt Lake City uses the ultrashort in both it's light rail system and its recently opened streetcar line. The implication here is that it is now theoretically possible for a true light rail line to be built for the price of a streetcar line [more-or-less] assuming there is a potential to remove lanes of traffic from vehicular usage. As far as the width of the vehicles are concerned, the ultrashort and the regular length S70s are exactly the same width. I will post some pictures later for everyone's comparative curiosities. Edited July 23, 2014 by cltbwimob

[kermit]

I can't remember how the Silver (Independence) line was planned to come into town. Was it ever planned to travel along the streetcar tacks to CTC or did they have another route in mind?

[cltbwimob]

The Silver Line as originally planned was to follow Charlottetowne to 5th and terminate at CTC, if you are referring to the light rail alignment.

 

Here is a link to a PDF map of the various Silver Line alignments from CATS website:

 

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/planning/silver/projectfacts/Documents/JuneMTCSECorridorLRTBRTHOV%5B1%5D.pdf

[Third Strike]

That alignment would have had the Silver Line running right next to Memorial Stadium. That would have been pretty big for many reasons.

[ajfunder]

It sounds like Siemens, although not official yet, will be the supplier of our modern streetcars for phase 2. It makes since from a parts standpoint. The Atlanta S70 Streetcars are awesome and they will begin operating in the next few months. I really can't wait for this thing to open and for the line to expand.

August is when the city plans to apply for phase 2 funding, correct?

[michaelef]

You may notice a familiar sight on this page, it was for a preview of Atlanta's streetcar back in 2010

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/do/preview-a-streetcar-in-centennial-olympic-park

[dubone]

The Silver line is moot for the most part, but it is a very smart thing to plan for for the longer term and any new light rail lines in almost any direction to use these tracks for those lines, and simply dedicate the lanes or the entire street to transit.  

 

I honestly think there is little issue with dedicating the entire lane to the streetcar or streetcar/buses even as a streetcar line, but as part of a longer Light rail corridor that requires a section on these tracks, it is a no brainer to simply disallow cars on that lane.   It is a shame, though, they they also did a roat diet on the Elizabeth Avenue portion, so there is now only one lane, but that would not be a dramatic or unattainable fix to add back.  

 

Obviously once it gets out past the grid, like Central, it will be much much harder to dedicate a lane, but if the budget worked to rebuild half of Tryon St, then it may also work for Central, and could be a wonderful opportunity to improve the aesthetics of the avenue.

 

But even if it is just a short connector from any other corridor, like US74, CSX, Norfolk-Southern, it is a no brainer.   Many cities have a transit-only streets in their downtown grid, so this seems inevitable, and the fact that it the vehicles are virtually the same is a really good thing.  

 

 

 

I have always believed they should restore the "streetcar" overlay in SouthEnd and join it with this line, which is especially obvious with the 5th Street connector.  Having these vehicles go from Hawthorne to Caldwell then get on the blue line tracks and continue to every station until East-West, you end up with a very functional line with many benefits: 

-  Added frequency between Southend, Uptown, and Elizabeth. 

- In town pricing, cheaper or continued fare-free service to add hop-on-hop-off customers, or if full fare adds value since it doubles the length of the available line without transfers.

- Many transfer options.

 

This is pretty basic for transit to use common infrastructure in the core and then branch out. 

[Nolan]

You may notice a familiar sight on this page, it was for a preview of Atlanta's streetcar back in 2010

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/do/preview-a-streetcar-in-centennial-olympic-park

 

The S70s on our streetline will look sexy though, I believe the S70 version for streetcar lines all over will be shorter to accommodate a tighter turning radius.

I was in a Atlanta a few weeks ago and I didn't know the part I was in was part of their streetcar line, some parts look stretchy, especially just west of the Downtown Connector on Auburn.  

[cltbwimob]

It sounds like Siemens, although not official yet, will be the supplier of our modern streetcars for phase 2. It makes since from a parts standpoint. The Atlanta S70 Streetcars are awesome and they will begin operating in the next few months. I really can't wait for this thing to open and for the line to expand.

August is when the city plans to apply for phase 2 funding, correct?

It is not certain that Siemens will be the supplier.  The reason the gold line was designed to handle the S70 ultrashort was because no one actually knows what will be chosen, at least not as of a couple of months ago, hence CATS wanted to plan for the larger vehicle in case they need the capacity in the future.  This is not to say that a smaller vehicle will not be used on the gold line, but it is easy to put a small vehicle on tracks that are robustly designed, whereas placing a large vehicle on something engineered for a standard streetcar may be impossible.

 

Here are the promised photos for comparison:

 

S70 standard length

 

 

S70 ultrashort in light rail configuration (4 car set)

 

 

S70 ultrashort in streetcar configuration without couplers

 

A short article on the Siemens S70 US:

 

http://www.masstransitmag.com/article/10408114/siemens-builds-streetcars-upgradeable-to-light-rail-operation

Edited July 24, 2014 by cltbwimob

[carolinagarnet]

I honestly think there is little issue with dedicating the entire lane to the streetcar or streetcar/buses even as a streetcar line, but as part of a longer Light rail corridor that requires a section on these tracks, it is a no brainer to simply disallow cars on that lane.   It is a shame, though, they they also did a roat diet on the Elizabeth Avenue portion, so there is now only one lane, but that would not be a dramatic or unattainable fix to add back.  

 

I agree that dedicated lanes make sense, but they are a political non-starter. Even pro-transit cities like DC and New York have trouble building the support necessary to dedicate lanes. There has to be enough noise from taxpayers to make it happen and the bulk of the tax base in South Charlotte would probably revolt. This may be palatable in 15-20 years if growth continues at its current pace around Uptown.

[ChessieCat]

^Agreed.  Just look at all the engineering work required to get the BLE going from 7th street station.  And the initial section past NoDa is already a dedicated abandoned rail corridor! 

Edited July 24, 2014 by ChessieCat

[ChessieCat]

It is not certain that Siemens will be the supplier.  The reason the gold line was designed to handle the S70 ultrashort was because no one actually knows what will be chosen, at least not as of a couple of months ago, hence CATS wanted to plan for the larger vehicle in case they need the capacity in the future.  This is not to say that a smaller vehicle will not be used on the gold line, but it is easy to put a small vehicle on tracks that are robustly designed, whereas placing a large vehicle on something engineered for a standard streetcar may be impossible.

 

Here are the promised photos for comparison:

 

 

S70 standard length

 

 

 

S70 ultrashort in light rail configuration (4 car set)

 

 

S70 ultrashort in streetcar configuration without couplers

 

A short article on the Siemens S70 US:

 

http://www.masstransitmag.com/article/10408114/siemens-builds-streetcars-upgradeable-to-light-rail-operation

 

There are a ton of manufacturers out there for LRT/Streetcars:

 

Siemens (Germany) 

Alstom (France)

AnsaldoBreda (Italy)

CAF (Spain)

Stadler (Swiss)

Skoda (Czech)

Nippon Sharyo (Japan)

Kinki Sharyo (Japan)

Kawasaki (Japan)

Hyundai Rotem (Korea)

Bombardier (Canada)

United Streetcar (USA)

Brookville (USA)

 

Not included are East European, Russian or Chinese manufacturers who want in on the US market too. Brazil and India have their own startups too.  Imagine all the boondoggles Charlotte politicians will get over the next few years.  The opportunities for corruption are endless!

Edited July 24, 2014 by ChessieCat

[km1789]

There are a ton of manufacturers out there for LRT/Streetcars:

 

Siemens (Germany) 

Alstom (France)

AnsaldoBreda (Italy)

CAF (Spain)

Stadler (Swiss)

Skoda (Czech)

Nippon Sharyo (Japan)

Kinki Sharyo (Japan)

Kawasaki (Japan)

Hyundai Rotem (Korea)

Bombardier (Canada)

United Streetcar (USA)

Brookville (USA)

 

Not included are East European, Russian or Chinese manufacturers who want in on the US market too. Brazil and India have their own startups too.  Imagine all the boondoggles Charlotte politicians will get over the next few years.  The opportunities for corruption are endless!

 

 

There may be a lot of manufacturers/companies that make them, but due to the way this line has been funded, via federal grants in part, the city must use trans/cars that were built here. This poses a problem as there are better foreign models already in existence but we cannot use them.

[ChessieCat]

There may be a lot of manufacturers/companies that make them, but due to the way this line has been funded, via federal grants in part, the city must use trans/cars that were built here. This poses a problem as there are better foreign models already in existence but we cannot use them.

 

All of the above manufacturers have entered the US market through local JV's that align with Congress' "Buy America" policy for receiving federal funding.  For example, CAF has built LRT rolling stock for Pittsburgh, Skoda in Portland, AnsaldoBreda in LA, etc.

[JoshuaDrown]

Went for a bike ride today, here is the view from McDowell down Elizabeth:

 

 

And up Trade:

 

[Brendan]

This is so impressive.  Someone is going to be able to do this real soon.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cktlY8JfvQ

[Norm2]

This is so impressive.  Someone is going to be able to do this real soon.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cktlY8JfvQ

OK now that was just really cool!

[go_vertical]

Genius

[15895]

So when is this thing going to be done already! I'm excited

[ajfunder]

They seem to be a little behind schedule, the intersection of Caldwell and Trade should be closed by now but it is not. They can't start the final section across Kings until Hawthorne (grading under way) and Caldwell are reopened. The target date for completing track installation is September 12th, my bet is they will be done in early October with the current pace.

[Dcarnys]

This is so impressive.  Someone is going to be able to do this real soon.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cktlY8JfvQ

 

Please don't give me ideas haha

[nonillogical]

This is so impressive.  Someone is going to be able to do this real soon.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cktlY8JfvQ

You could do that right now down Elizabeth at least! Just bail at the end