Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[ajfunder]

^The tracks on 5th are non-revenue connector to the LRT, the streetcar utilizes a pocket track at CTC and at Presbyterian to turn around. The only difference is that the platform at Presbyterian is located in the "pocket" section of track (eventually it will be just a crossover when the line is extended). The streetcars still must reverse to turnaround at CTC.

Every station has been started except for the Travis Avenue station, they have been working on the CPCC station for weeks, and honestly I'm not sure what they are working on. The construction crews seem to be understaffed.

Edited February 8, 2015 by ajfunder

[Charlotte Guanxi]

Does anyone know when they the line is extended towards West Trade Street and through Johnson and Wales, where the stops potentially might be?

[navigator319]

Does anyone know when they the line is extended towards West Trade Street and through Johnson and Wales, where the stops potentially might be?

 

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/charlottefuture/PublishingImages/CityLYNXMap.pdf

[tozmervo]

Based on the 65% plans, it will be a center-street station located in front of the Gateway Starbucks, basically where the bus stop is now.

[southslider]

Pretty much all of the Phase 2 stops are in the median, except the Square.

[15895]

Yayyyy, Mayor Foxx is in town! I loveeee Foxx. I wonder if while in town he gives updates on Gold line funding.

I think as this point we only have leaks reported from USA Today or something

[dubone]

In my opinion, the "toy trolleys" should never once touch this line, it instantly marginalizes it.

 

 

 

There was once a time when we were all extremely excited seeing those Gomaco Replica Trolleys rolling between Southend and uptown.   I think the key element is that with the approval of the extension and modern vehicles as a real 'coming soon' element, it is totally reasonable to have the smaller vehicles for just the starter line.   The general public thinks the Gold Rush trolley buses are a nice charm, and so many of the general public ride those trolley buses that it is one of the highest riderships in the whole system. 

 

I am perfectly happy with the compromise of the already-owned replica trolleys for the first phase, and hope they keep running them along with the modern Siemens trams too. 

 

Now that we know the second phase and the modern vehicles are actually going to come, I am far less concerned with the perceptions of anti-transit people. 

[kermit]

^ Well said.

 

We should also keep in mind that our "toy trolleys" are the same models used for heavy service on the Canal Street line in New Orleans. They work very well there.

[ChessieCat]

 

In my opinion, the "toy trolleys" should never once touch this line, it instantly marginalizes it.

 

There was once a time when we were all extremely excited seeing those Gomaco Replica Trolleys rolling between Southend and uptown.   I think the key element is that with the approval of the extension and modern vehicles as a real 'coming soon' element, it is totally reasonable to have the smaller vehicles for just the starter line.   The general public thinks the Gold Rush trolley buses are a nice charm, and so many of the general public ride those trolley buses that it is one of the highest riderships in the whole system. 

 

I am perfectly happy with the compromise of the already-owned replica trolleys for the first phase, and hope they keep running them along with the modern Siemens trams too. 

 

Now that we know the second phase and the modern vehicles are actually going to come, I am far less concerned with the perceptions of anti-transit people. 

 

 

 It would be a dream to see the "Toy Trolleys" on the old P&N line from Cedar Street to Seversville.  Agree they are not needed on the uptown trolley line given the new rolling stock...

Edited February 19, 2015 by ChessieCat

[ah59396]

^ Well said.

 

We should also keep in mind that our "toy trolleys" are the same models used for heavy service on the Canal Street line in New Orleans. They work very well there.

 

 

New Orleans is a different situation though.  Canal Street is the center of the most historic city in the southeast.  the line runs through old colonial homes and buildings.  trolleys fit that style and accent it well.  our street car runs through a modern downtown next to an 10 year old arena and community college built in the last 30 years.

[dubone]

(somehow my quote of RDF21's toy trolley line appeared like my own line earlier.  I am in favor of using these trolleys)

 

In SF, the F line goes from the Wharf to Castro through mostly modern urban environment and uses actual (mostly run down) historic trolleys.   These replica trolleys we are using are built in the 21st century, and while nostalgic in appearance are quite comfortable and reasonable as current transit vehicles.  

 

I very much prefer the modern Siemens vehicles, but we shouldn't mothball the replica trolleys that Tampa and other cities use and are a draw for some tourists.  They are smaller vehicles, but fit enough people to be helpful in the transit mix.   If we can employ a driver to drive those shtty gold rush buses, then we can employ a driver to run these replica trolleys on the actual tracks.   I actually doubt the full size Siemens S70 trams will be filled to capacity on this line that is basically little more than the current Gold Rush Red Line replacement.   

 

I would rather keep them in circulation and leverage their capacity and the frequency with higher number of vehicles than to have lower frequency with larger vehicles.  

[kermit]

New Orleans is a different situation though.  Canal Street is the center of the most historic city in the southeast.  the line runs through old colonial homes and buildings.  trolleys fit that style and accent it well.  our street car runs through a modern downtown next to an 10 year old arena and community college built in the last 30 years.

 

I think you are thinking of the St. Charles line which runs through the garden district. They still use vintage trolleys there. Canal street (which uses the same, newish, vehicles as we will use) is not hugely different than South blvd for most of its route. Here is a random streetview:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/New+Orleans,+LA/@29.959459,-90.078541,3a,75y,333.77h,73.67t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sxjdHZ-PNUCmDOu4M_3twxA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x8620a454b2118265:0xdb065be85e22d3b4?hl=en

Edited February 19, 2015 by kermit

[dubone]

Let's be clear.  Phase I and II of the Charlotte Gold Line is replacement of the Gold Rush Red Line, which goes from Johnson C Smith to Presbyterian/Novant Hospital.

 

The Gold Rush Red Line uses Chance Coach Replica trolley buses, which appears to not be made any more by Optima/Nabi Bus.  These buses are jumpy uncomfortable, diesel-fume smelling 2nd-rate buses that have some wood trim thrown on to appear like a trolley.   They are typically used throughout the country as shuttles to parking lots at amusement parks or some other low-grade use with a half-hearted attempt to seem aesthetically pleasing.

 

 

The streetcar vehicles we are using for the CityLynx Gold Line Phase I are NOT vintage.  They use an classic design, but they were built in 2003-4.  We bought and paid for them and then mothballed them when we built the Blue Line.  

http://www.gomacotrolley.com/resources/charlotteopening.html

 

These vehicles are vastly more attractive than the Gold Rush buses.  They are not fake trolleys, they are real trolleys and use a classic design but have the modern structural integrity to be safe on the roads.  If you rode in them when they were live, you'll recall they are charming, smooth-riding, and comfortable and fit easily 2x more people than the Gold Rush Chance Coach buses. 

 

There is no reason to mock these vehicles as vintage or toys.  They classic design does draw people in that like the nostalgic aesthetic, but this is not fakery like the current Gold Rush buses.  

 

 

We all prefer the modern vehicles, but our city OWNS the Gomaco trolleys outright and they work, and they are practically brand new, and they fit more people than the vehicles running on this transit route for a long time.   They ought to be used for lifespan or else sold to Tampa or another city that has been using this type of vehicle.

 

 

I think it would be nice if the vehicles got a different paint job (I never loved the green and yellow).   Perhaps with it being the Gold Line, we could repaint them all gold like the Ybor line in Tampa.  But there is nothing wrong with these vehicles.  

[Guest]

Let's be clear.  Phase I and II of the Charlotte Gold Line is replacement of the Gold Rush Red Line, which goes from Johnson C Smith to Presbyterian/Novant Hospital.

 

The Gold Rush Red Line uses Chance Coach Replica trolley buses, which appears to not be made any more by Optima/Nabi Bus.  These buses are jumpy uncomfortable, diesel-fume smelling 2nd-rate buses that have some wood trim thrown on to appear like a trolley.   They are typically used throughout the country as shuttles to parking lots at amusement parks or some other low-grade use with a half-hearted attempt to seem aesthetically pleasing.

 

 

The streetcar vehicles we are using for the CityLynx Gold Line Phase I are NOT vintage.  They use an classic design, but they were built in 2003-4.  We bought and paid for them and then mothballed them when we built the Blue Line.  

http://www.gomacotrolley.com/resources/charlotteopening.html

 

These vehicles are vastly more attractive than the Gold Rush buses.  They are not fake trolleys, they are real trolleys and use a classic design but have the modern structural integrity to be safe on the roads.  If you rode in them when they were live, you'll recall they are charming, smooth-riding, and comfortable and fit easily 2x more people than the Gold Rush Chance Coach buses. 

 

There is no reason to mock these vehicles as vintage or toys.  They classic design does draw people in that like the nostalgic aesthetic, but this is not fakery like the current Gold Rush buses.  

 

 

We all prefer the modern vehicles, but our city OWNS the Gomaco trolleys outright and they work, and they are practically brand new, and they fit more people than the vehicles running on this transit route for a long time.   They ought to be used for lifespan or else sold to Tampa or another city that has been using this type of vehicle.

 

 

I think it would be nice if the vehicles got a different paint job (I never loved the green and yellow).   Perhaps with it being the Gold Line, we could repaint them all gold like the Ybor line in Tampa.  But there is nothing wrong with these vehicles.  

My opinion is swayed, but I implore you to sway the minds of the Charlotte Observer Commenters, who I fear accurately depict the populous as a whole.

[dubone]

My opinion is swayed, but I implore you to sway the minds of the Charlotte Observer Commenters, who I fear accurately depict the populous as a whole.

 

I think with the next phase practically approved, and obviously with all new vehicles being the modern european tram vehicles, minds will luckily be able to be swayed by the actual built line just like what happened for the Blue Line.

 

 

So I was looking for substantiation for the my own personal experience that these are much bigger than the faux trolley Gold Rush.  The Chance Coach trolley buses are 29' long and have seating for 26. (See page 20)

 

The Gomaco Birney streetcar vehicles we own are 49' long and have much nicer hardwood and brass seating for 48 and standing capacity for 57 (105 total).   See page 13 of this document.   These vehicles are actually quite upgraded inside.  

 

Granted we only one 3 of them so they won't be enough for the whole 4 mile line, but the vehicles themselves will hold up to scrutiny and capacity for the starter line, and as part of the mix for the full 4 mile line.   An average person riding them will be impressed, which is why this line actually drew tourists when it was operating.  

 

 

 

 

Now let's remind ourselves how many passengers were served by our terrible, awful, uncomfortable, pretentious, second-rate, faux trolley diesel Gold Rush bus running just half of the day (Route 86 in these charts from a couple years ago -- I can't find anything more recent because CATS is bad at data transparency):

 

 

They were in the top routes of the entire city, despite the handicap of small uncomfortable buses and only running during bank hours.  Note that even with the highest ridership by far per revenue hour, at 80 pax/hr, the tiny Gold Rush buses needed to serve most of those riders standing up in the small vehicles.  The Gomaco streetcars will allow twice as many to be seated, and the standing riders will far more room and comfort.  If all 80 crushed onto the Gomaco trolley at once, it would still have room for 27 more people.   

 

 

The great news is, we have these on hand paid for from the old SouthEnd budget.   And the new budget for Phase II gets us even bigger and roomy vehicles with a smooth ride and more seating.  

 

The Gold Rush already proved the market, now with a full schedule, and a permanent fixed track electric railway corridor with both these classically designed Gomaco vehicles and modern designed Siemens vehicles coming to serve it, we will almost undoubtedly answer the critics with high ridership and economic growth.  

[cltbwimob]

I haven't seen anything to suggest Siemens will be the vehicle contractor, but perhaps I overlooked something. Can you provide a source?

[dubone]

Nothing will be selected until bids go out.  But the Siemens S70 tram is what has always been shown in documentation for this line for a decade.  It is what Atlanta used, and would likely be in the lead in Charlotte because it would have some parts sharing with the Blue line's S70 LRV.   

 

I see that DC chose Inekon, and there are others that could bid.   I think the city has discussed the desire to include some wireless induction sections near Tryon and under low bridges.  I'm pretty sure that is just a nice-to-have luxury and not a full requirement, but at least there are some designs that include that capability, so I bet that will factor in during the next level of engineering and bids.

 

Of course, if they do the wireless sections and drop the catenary in any section, then the Gomaco trolleys will not be able to run the line.   I suspect we will not end up with any wireless sections, even though it is a cool technology that also can charge electric buses as well.  

[15895]

So is it possible phase II is completed in 2017 along with the BLE?

Off topic; it will be neat when professors take the blue line to work or SoutyEnd residents take blue line to NoDa, NoDa to Whole Foods, teachers & nurses from University to Elizabeth on the Gil's line, etc it could mark a social shift

[Third Strike]

I think they are aiming for a 2019 completion date for phase 2 of the Gold Line. I hope the city starts planning for phase 3 as soon as work for the second phase starts. Hopefully the next phase will extend the Gold Line all the way through Plaza-Midwood, and reach at least Eastway. The west end could extend only slightly across Brookshire to Oaklawn. The last phase would finish the entire project.

[birky]

Off topic; it will be neat when professors take the blue line to work or SouthEnd residents take blue line to NoDa, NoDa to Whole Foods, teachers & nurses from University to Elizabeth on the Gil's line, etc it could mark a social shift

 

I work at UNCC but live in uptown.  I don't think I'll ride the BLE every day, but there will no longer be a need for my wife & I to own two vehicles. 2017 can't get here soon enough.

[kermit]

So is it possible phase II is completed in 2017 along with the BLE?

 

While I don't want to be Captain BuzzKill please keep in mind that we don't yet have the federal grant. The only thing we have is an indication that funding was included in the FTA draft budget for fiscal 2016. There are several things that need to happen before Charlotte actually has the grant.

 

These events include, but are not limited to

a) passage of a federal budget by a Republican controlled Congress which includes the necessary funding levels for the FTA

b) a positive decision by the FTA to fund the Phase II grant (the budget item suggests that they will fund the grant agreement BUT does not guarantee that, if their budget is reduced from the requested amount they will certainly need to make adjustments)

c) the city must find $75+ million in matching funds for their majority share of construction costs.

d) the city must find a source of funds for 100% of the Gold Line's operating costs (CATS has said they will not pay this out of the transit tax)

e) avoiding ideological roadblocks to streetcar extensions from our esteemed legislature. While they can't threaten to pull funding (they are providing none) they certainly could enact legislation that would make it harder or impossible for the city to fund their majority share.

f) avoiding ideological roadblocks from local politicians. I don't see this as a huge threat (at the moment) but streetcar projects have been very visible targets for elimination by new mayors and council members in places like San Antonio, Cincinnati, DC, and Arlington. I certainly hope that our local rightwing activists learned their lesson from the 2007 transit tax repeal referendum, but that is an example of the kinds of things that can happen.

 

Edit: I also work at UNCC and live in Dilworth. I hope to ride the BLE everyday -- parking on campus is very expensive and the drive sucks!

Edited February 21, 2015 by kermit

[southslider]

As for operating cost, I think the MSD for Center City should cover at least half, while TIF around the segments outside of 277, including Phase 1, should be established now to start the value-capture well before 2019. This thinking goes with the two key benefits of any streetcar, which are mobility (urban core circulation) and development (core expansion).

[dubone]

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/charlottefuture/Documents/CityLYNX%20Gold%20Line%20Power%20Point_FINAL.pdf

 

The schedule [if] we get the money in FY2016 will be for construction to be from 2016-2019.  It will be 1-2y after the Blue Line.

 

 

a) Of course we know we don't have the money, but typically in these projects, the key has been selection by FTA in the competition for the executive budgeting.   The budget for the transit agency is not a major place of congressional cuts, especially for projects in what is effectively a red state.  So the most significant hurdle was getting a recommended and inclusion.   In federal budgets, $75m is not going to a entry that they are just itching to cut. 

 

b) Inclusion in the FTA's 2016 budget means that it passed and is recommended for moving forward by FTA.  It is absolutely on track as planned. 

 

© City matching funds were already allocated, it was during the CIP process where the local matching funds for this was from savings from other projects.  

 

d) This is not a very high operating cost, but when CATS (absolutely ridiculously) decided not to fund the operating costs for the city agreed to that and will budget for it.   The numbers are not wildly high for the operating costs, especially with the economic benefit like what has always been the case for the Gold Rush.   I believe what will be discussed is whether CCCP and any other mechanism will go in to keep it as a fare-free circulator like Gold Rush.  

[southslider]

^Given the Gold Rush has been historically subsidized by the major employers along its route, it doesn't seem absolutely ridiculous to ask for the operations of the Gold Rush's replacement to be subsidized by others, too.

Besides, the City Council insisted on such an arrangement, including the current Governor / then-Mayor.

[dubone]

I mean, it is still a benefit to the city at large to be farefree and have significantly more ridership and circulation uptown.  Regardless, that is a discussion for 2018-9.