Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[tozmervo]

CATS just sent out notice that testing on the Gold Line is about to begin

[kermit]

^ signs are up on every Elizabeth ave parking space announcing that anyone parked over the white line will be towed immediately. Those street spaces are kinda tight now.

[ajfunder]

Those signs have been up for a few months and people still park well over the white line. The double parking near CPCC will also be illegal once the streetcar starts. People sure are gonna have to change their habits.

They finally poured the concrete for the platforms at CPCC. They also tore up parts of the already installed platforms along the line, not sure what for, but I think it has to do with installing the station shelters.

Is the station at Travis Avenue still happening? So far nothing has happened at the location.

Edited March 10, 2015 by ajfunder

[15895]

Does anyone think there are too many stops?

I'm just thinking between all the stops + Traffic + Lights.

[Matthew.Brendan]

It'll be faster to walk

[Guest]

Does anyone think there are too many stops?

I'm just thinking between all the stops + Traffic + Lights.

It'll be exactly like the bus, except hopefully they will eventually time the lights in favor of the street car. Saying walking will be faster is just straight up hyperbole. Edited March 11, 2015 by Guest

[ajfunder]

The Government Center Station and the McDowell street station are the two which seem too close together. Some of the traffic lights in front of the jail seem unnecessary and the traffic light at Brevard and Trade seems completely unnecessary. I think the main purpose of this traffic light is to provide signalized pedestrian crosswalks.

[tozmervo]

Brevard & Trade is important for bus movement around the CTC.

[15895]

It'll be exactly like the bus, except hopefully they will eventually time the lights in favor of the street car. Saying walking will be faster is just straight up hyperbole.

The bus doesn't stop at every stop though and say "Please Stand Clear, doors are closing"

(I'm not a critic. I'm a huge huge proponent.)

Edited March 11, 2015 by AirNostrumMAD

[Niner National]

The bus doesn't stop at every stop though and say "Please Stand Clear, doors are closing"

(I'm not a critic. I'm a huge huge proponent.)

Will the streetcar stop if nobody has requested a stop and there is nobody at the station?

 

I've never ridden one before, but it seems silly to stop if there is no reason to.

[Guest]

Will the streetcar stop if nobody has requested a stop and there is nobody at the station?

I've never ridden one before, but it seems silly to stop if there is no reason to.

The street cars I've ridden have not stopped when nobody requests, and haven't had the silly "stand clear the closing doors." Just beeps, and is suspect this will just have beeps as well.

[15895]

Will the streetcar stop if nobody has requested a stop and there is nobody at the station?

 

I've never ridden one before, but it seems silly to stop if there is no reason to.

 

 

From my understanding, I thought so.

 

After looking at a map zoomed in, the stations don't look too close.

 

 

 

 

Edit: And I meant when we get the actual siemens Cars like Atlanta has. Aren't they basically just like our Light Rail with the same voice and all?

Edited March 11, 2015 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

It'll be faster to walk

 

That is entirely dependant upon the headway. If the streetcar comes by every 5 minutes (or less, like Toronto) then it will be faster to take the GoldLine. If the frequency is >15 minutes then the streetcar will be totally pointless. Guess which the city is planning...

 

[ajfunder]

The McDowell Station is actually located at the intersection of Trade and Myers, a block closer to the Government Center Station than depicted on the map. IMO the McDowell Station should have been located on the East side of McDowell for better spacing, but I'm not going to complain, I'm just happy testing will begin soon.

[cltbwimob]

It'll be exactly like the bus, except hopefully they will eventually time the lights in favor of the street car. Saying walking will be faster is just straight up hyperbole.

Not necessarily....

 

http://blog.oregonlive.com/commuting/2013/02/joseph_rose_vs_the_portland_st.html

 

http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/feb/20/streetcars-of-desire-why-are-americans-obsessed-with-building-trams

 

http://www.humantransit.org/2014/07/email-of-the-day-on-robert-steutevilles-defense-of-slower-than-walking-transit.html

 

To AirNostrumMAD's point, the number of stops likely won't be a problem for Phase 1 & 2 because most of the stops will be either in downtown or immediately adjacent.  This is also the area where the streetcar will function more like an urban circulator, and will likely do just fine. 

 

As the line approaches complete build-out, number of stops (34 stops in 9.6 miles), traffic, etc will become an issue and likely hamper ridership.  The numbers typically quoted for streetcar average speeds are between 6 mph and 10 mph; it will take a long time to get from the ends of the line to downtown. This is the problem with the streetcar as currently planned and why I believe it will struggle to meet ridership projections. 

 

Rather than building a single line nearly 10 miles long, transit planners should have planned multiple lines of 2-3 miles in and around downtown to connect major destinations and neighborhoods near the CBD such as Midtown, Freedom Drive, and others.

 

Edit: Actually, what transit planners should have done is focus their efforts on building out a good light rail system and focused on a streetcar system when the major rail lines were finished.

Edited March 11, 2015 by cltbwimob

[Guest]

Not necessarily....

http://blog.oregonlive.com/commuting/2013/02/joseph_rose_vs_the_portland_st.html

http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/feb/20/streetcars-of-desire-why-are-americans-obsessed-with-building-trams

http://www.humantransit.org/2014/07/email-of-the-day-on-robert-steutevilles-defense-of-slower-than-walking-transit.html

To AirNostrumMAD's point, the number of stops likely won't be a problem for Phase 1 & 2 because most of the stops will be either in downtown or immediately adjacent. This is also the area where the streetcar will function more like an urban circulator, and will likely do just fine.

As the line approaches complete build-out, number of stops (34 stops in 9.6 miles), traffic, etc will become an issue and likely hamper ridership. The numbers typically quoted for streetcar average speeds are between 6 mph and 10 mph; it will take a long time to get from the ends of the line to downtown. This is the problem with the streetcar as currently planned and why I believe it will struggle to meet ridership projections.

Rather than building a single line nearly 10 miles long, transit planners should have planned multiple lines of 2-3 miles in and around downtown to connect major destinations and neighborhoods near the CBD such as Midtown, Freedom Drive, and others.

Very true, kudos.

[dubone]

That is entirely dependant upon the headway. If the streetcar comes by every 5 minutes (or less, like Toronto) then it will be faster to take the GoldLine. If the frequency is >15 minutes then the streetcar will be totally pointless. Guess which the city is planning...

I was thinking this, it may be faster to walk short distances, but if you are walking the whole distance of the line, it is not a matter of the actual vehicle going slower than walking speed (which will not be the case, even if they do stop for 5 seconds at an empty station).  The issue would be if there are not many vehicles running to keep frequencies up.

 

In the case of the (goddam awful) Gold Rush Tryon line, they would have strange policies of waiting at the end of the line until the right time to leave.  That is because they were rationing servicing thinking people would be waiting at stops for them.  But the reality of that low frequency is that I could always walk from 9th to 2nd/MLK faster than the Gold Rush because it was still stopped at the starting line.  But if started moving, of course it would get there faster.   The 'walk faster' is because of the frequency and the out of sync with when you are at the station, not whether in a race you could technically go faster than the vehicle. 

 

 

______________________________

 

A stop/station every 3 blocks in downtown is consistent even with the Blue Line and is part of a balance of speed and servicing a high density urban core.  If they kept going with that many stops in the less dense outer section of Central, yes it would be unbearably long of a trip, but just like the Blue Line, it will just feel natural for those stations to be there actually serving all of the locations.     Of course there is a limit where too many will not bring new riders and the slower overall speed will cause a reduction in overall ridership, but this part of ridership models which the professionals have studied and they have made educated decisions on during engineering.  It is all part of the design best practices of a streetcar system. 

[tozmervo]

In the case of the (goddam awful) Gold Rush Tryon line, they would have strange policies of waiting at the end of the line until the right time to leave.  That is because they were rationing servicing thinking people would be waiting at stops for them.  

 

 

I'm not sure I understand that - isn't waiting at the end of the lines part of maintaining a consistent timetable, and keeping the trolleys spaced apart at regular intervals? (that is, you don't get three trolleys in 15 minutes, then have to wait 30 minutes for one)

[pgsinger]

The issue I have is much less about speed and much more about predictability.  In my opinion, this is also important to the issue of walking being faster.  If I know when the car is going to show up, I can time my schedule around its arrival.  This eliminates the 14 minute "head start" a walker would get if they showed up right after the last car departed.  From my perspective predictability is the most important characteristic the street car needs to have.  If it is not punctual, then I will not ride it.  

 

I think what Dubone is saying is that 15 minute intervals is too infrequent for such a short line.  They might as well just try to run the loop as frequently and as often as possible rather than sticking to a schedule because if you even had a 2 minute "head start" on foot walking would be faster since the distance traveled was so small.  I would argue that if the line was predictable in arrival times at stops people could have timed their arrival at the stops.  However, the nature of that line makes its predictability difficult to accomplish.  

 

Though, I have no formal knowledge of any urban or transport planning, so you may always be better ignoring me.

[teeg]

I'm not sure I understand that - isn't waiting at the end of the lines part of maintaining a consistent timetable, and keeping the trolleys spaced apart at regular intervals? (that is, you don't get three trolleys in 15 minutes, then have to wait 30 minutes for one)

 

It looks like Gold Rush does have an actual schedule, though I do not know if I have seen it anywhere other than the internet:

http://wirelesscats.ridetransit.org/BusSchedules/mnt/pf.asp?p=WeO86&sk=5cVIlC4vE9ZeXx2 

This appears dated, like it was not updated after they expended service to Presbyterian Hospital.  But, regardless, I have always understood that bus drivers are not allowed to pass through any of the key points on their route ahead of schedule.  It's like a law or something.  

[dcharlotte]

Predictable, reliable, and on-time transit is a must for all cities - especially in cities where transit is in competition for choice riders. Frequent service, real-time information via apps, and high reliability are crucial for success of any system. 20 minute headways are worthless to choice riders at this distance. 

[pgsinger]

It looks like Gold Rush does have an actual schedule, though I do not know if I have seen it anywhere other than the internet:

http://wirelesscats.ridetransit.org/BusSchedules/mnt/pf.asp?p=WeO86&sk=5cVIlC4vE9ZeXx2 

This appears dated, like it was not updated after they expended service to Presbyterian Hospital.  But, regardless, I have always understood that bus drivers are not allowed to pass through any of the key points on their route ahead of schedule.  It's like a law or something.  

 

These are their "timed" stops, there are actually many more stops than these on the line.  I forget the actual term of these stops, but yes, they try to arrive at these stops at these times, but they frequently get off schedule.  It is certainly not law for them to get ahead of schedule, but getting ahead is not the issue.  If they were ahead they could simply wait at any of these stops until they were back on track.  The issue is them getting a few minutes behind, and god for bid the one in front was actually on time, not you 15 minute intervals become 20 minutes if one is just 5 minutes late.

Predictable, reliable, and on-time transit is a must for all cities - especially in cities where transit is in competition for choice riders. Frequent service, real-time information via apps, and high reliability are crucial for success of any system. 20 minute headways are worthless to choice riders at this distance. 

 

Agreed.  In fact back when I used to ride the bus occasionally, then best app was a privately created app.  I don't even know that the city had one back then.  However, given the cost of GPS and technology these days, I think it is unforgivable that every light rail vehicle and bus do not have GPS units that rely live location information to a website and app.  This is unforgivable.

[dubone]

The issue I have is much less about speed and much more about predictability.  In my opinion, this is also important to the issue of walking being faster.  If I know when the car is going to show up, I can time my schedule around its arrival.  This eliminates the 14 minute "head start" a walker would get if they showed up right after the last car departed.  From my perspective predictability is the most important characteristic the street car needs to have.  If it is not punctual, then I will not ride it.  

 

I think what Dubone is saying is that 15 minute intervals is too infrequent for such a short line.  They might as well just try to run the loop as frequently and as often as possible rather than sticking to a schedule because if you even had a 2 minute "head start" on foot walking would be faster since the distance traveled was so small.  I would argue that if the line was predictable in arrival times at stops people could have timed their arrival at the stops.  However, the nature of that line makes its predictability difficult to accomplish.  

 

Though, I have no formal knowledge of any urban or transport planning, so you may always be better ignoring me.

 

Exactly.  I almost always "out walked" the old Tryon St Gold Rush because of that head start.   Therefore they lost me as a rider because my choice was to walk until I saw the trolley then hop on.   It got to be so common that I would out walk it or it would not catch up until I was already 3/4 of the way to my destination that  I quit bothering and never rode it again.   It was discontinued a year or two later. 

 

 

It was more the case that they were saving gas and rationing their frequency to 20 or 30 minute headways because of the low ridership.  It was more of a death spiral, though, in my opinion.  Many that would have hopped did not have the opportunity, or people had so few opportunities to ride it that it lost mindshare as a possibility for people in traveling along Tryon.   Plus SouthEnd riders of that Gold Rush would be much better served by the reliable Blue Line rather.  And even if you happened to catch the Gold Rush, you'd still have to subject yourself to the godawful g-forces and bouncing and trouncing and all the rest of a very low quality diesel bus. 

 

The Trade route kept the ridership because it was longer distances, so fewer people would even try to out-walk it and did not have a rail line taking part of the ridership. 

 

With a reliable, more comfortable, and more frequent (and all day) streetcar service, it will be a far better experience.   But it is unlikely you will think you are out-walking it like you feel with the Gold Rush.

[DMann]

The Tryon Street line was basically flat,  The Trade Street line runs uphill to Tryon Street in both directions.

[cltbwimob]

I was thinking this, it may be faster to walk short distances, but if you are walking the whole distance of the line, it is not a matter of the actual vehicle going slower than walking speed (which will not be the case, even if they do stop for 5 seconds at an empty station).  The issue would be if there are not many vehicles running to keep frequencies up.

 

In the case of the (goddam awful) Gold Rush Tryon line, they would have strange policies of waiting at the end of the line until the right time to leave.  That is because they were rationing servicing thinking people would be waiting at stops for them.  But the reality of that low frequency is that I could always walk from 9th to 2nd/MLK faster than the Gold Rush because it was still stopped at the starting line.  But if started moving, of course it would get there faster.   The 'walk faster' is because of the frequency and the out of sync with when you are at the station, not whether in a race you could technically go faster than the vehicle. 

 

 

______________________________

 

A stop/station every 3 blocks in downtown is consistent even with the Blue Line and is part of a balance of speed and servicing a high density urban core.  If they kept going with that many stops in the less dense outer section of Central, yes it would be unbearably long of a trip, but just like the Blue Line, it will just feel natural for those stations to be there actually serving all of the locations.     Of course there is a limit where too many will not bring new riders and the slower overall speed will cause a reduction in overall ridership, but this part of ridership models which the professionals have studied and they have made educated decisions on during engineering.  It is all part of the design best practices of a streetcar system. 

 

On many things throughout this forum, I agree with you; however I can't say I agree with this notion that the streetcar was designed according to best practices.  Much like you are convinced that the Gateway Station location is not an example of engineering best practices, I am convinced that beyond Phase 1 and 2 there is nothing "best practices" about the Gold Line. 

 

Streetcars do not function well as long, linear modes of transit; they work best in an urban circulator role focused on short trips, yet the planners of the system, likely driven by political interests, have chosen to try to force a modern streetcar system to accomplish a task for which it was not intended.  Even the poster child of streetcar design, the Portland Streetcar, does not extend more than maybe a mile or two from the CBD.  Since there are not too many natural destinations beyond Phase 2, the Gold Line ridership models are either a) over-relying on trips from the far reaches of the line to the CBD to drive ridership, or b) speculating that so much development will take place that ridership will be driven by the people not traveling to the CBD but making short trips between neighborhoods.  Since, it takes a long time to travel from Eastland to Uptown at an average of 6 mph, and the prospect of new development being sufficient to drive ridership as high as the models predict is questionable at best, I question whether the models are based on valid assumptions.

 

I am not the only one who is of this opinion.  I have talked to a couple of the engineers and planners who worked on this project.  In that conversation, they indicated that the streetcar line, as currently planned,  travels too far outside downtown and that they also think the full line will struggle to meet ridership projections.

Edited March 11, 2015 by cltbwimob