Greenville Skyline

[gs3]

That's a good picture- we certainly could head there soon. There was an article in the Greenville News re: the amount of office space Greenville will need in the next decade or so: much more than what is currently downtown. As long as we keep working on making downtown a desirable place and perhaps change zoning laws and provide tax incentives to funnel growth downtown, there's absolutely no reason why we cannot have a skyline like that.

Great to hear! Did the article give numbers on square footage that would be needed?

Edited April 27, 2006 by gsupstate

[mallguy]

Great to hear! Did the article give numbers on square footage that would be needed?

Yes, and it was a much larger amount of space than is currently in the market. Sorry I don't have the link but an online search should show some results. It was maybe 2 or 3 months ago in the Greenville News.

[goodbye]

Actually, I think I recall the same blurb. It was mentioned in an article about The South Financial Group's new headquarters. The amount of growth in the Upstate will be nothing short of phenomenal in the coming decades, if this prediction turns out to be true.

[goodbye]

Enjoy!

Did someone say we don't have a skyline?

[GvilleSC]

Enjoy!

Did someone say we don't have a skyline?

AHHHH! LOVE IT!

That's an awesome view Skyliner!

[jfl25]

Great view.

Edited April 30, 2006 by jfl25

[distortedlogic]

Don't know how to link, but I was looking at some pics of DT birmingham in the Alabama forum. Those pics are beautiful, and the type of skyline i can definitely see Greenville having one day. If we can just get some of these proposals up and going it may not be that far off... ...

[Fiddlestix]

I just added the following post to the New Hotel thread, but it is quite relevant to this thread as it describes the dynamic that will be needed to get a Charlotte-like skyline here:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...ndpost&p=427793

This is also a cheap way to get my 100th post. Somewhere before now, however, I earned "Whistlestop" status. I will feel it's more legitimate with 100 posts under my belt, even if I'm just laying down a bunt to get on....

[distortedlogic]

There were some posts in the New Hotel thread that remarked about Gvile's lack of DT density. Though I would like to to see a couple of 30-40 story buidings instead of 8 more ten story ones, I do agree that density is needed. I haven't seen an updated list recently, but here are the ones I can think of right now that are "supposed to happen."

1. Pinnacle on Main 14 stories

2. Camperdown Condos 14 Stories

3. Riverplace Condos 8 or 9 stories

4. Phase 3 Riverplace 12 stories

5. New Courthouse (8-15)?

6. Tower at Falls/Broad 20 stories

7. New Hotel at City hall (6 - 12)?

Please add if I am forgetting any, but these will certainly help with that density issue. Next we need some height, and some plans for that signature tower of skyliner's...

[goodbye]

I am hoping beyond all hope that RiverPlace phase III will include a monster of a signature tower for Greenville's skyline. I understand that is unlikely, but the need was never greater, in my opinion. I can't wait around for too much longer.

BTW, I did update the highrise list today. Just click in my signature, or locate the correct thread in the Greenville forum.

[Greenville]

I am hoping beyond all hope that RiverPlace phase III will include a monster of a signature tower for Greenville's skyline. I understand that is unlikely, but the need was never greater, in my opinion. I can't wait around for too much longer.

BTW, I did update the highrise list today. Just click in my signature, or locate the correct thread in the Greenville forum.

Thanks, Skyliner! The updated highrise list looks great. I am looking forward to hearing more about the hotel in City Hall Plaza.

[distortedlogic]

I was reading moten's post in the "duplicate thread" and he brings up a good question. Were we fed a pipe dream last year with all these proposals? Are any of them ever going to happen? I would say a couple of them will. I feel pretty confident that Pinnacle, Camperdown, and Phase 3 will happen and those three alone will help the skyline. But they certainly will not reshape it, and none of them seem to be anything signature that will really stand out. At this point, I doubt the others will happen except possibly the court house in 4 or 5 years. But it makes me wonder, is it just Gville that struggles to get projects off the ground? I am sure other cities have their problems with this, but Gville seems to be the king of failed proposals. Do cities like Cola, Chas, Knoxville, Chatanooga, Raleigh, Greensboro, W-S have problems with projects like we do?

[GvilleSC]

I'd say that the market was just too saturated at the time with SO many announcements at once. It was overwelming. But I look to see more announcements before long. I know of nothing right now, but with Greenville's growth, you know there are some on the horizon. Some that WILL happen.

[g-man430]

Like the new hotel that will probably be coming downtown by the year's end on the city hall park site.

[krazeeboi]

Do cities like Cola, Chas, Knoxville, Chatanooga, Raleigh, Greensboro, W-S have problems with projects like we do?

As GvilleSC said, Greenville was in a period where it got proposal after proposal announced in rapid succession. I'm sure if you put together all the high-rise proposals within the last 5-10 years in the above cites, some were built and some were not. I don't necessarily think Greenville's situation is any different. As a matter of fact, I believe Raleigh is just getting some information/renderings about a development that was proposed some time ago and got stalled.

[g-man430]

I don't get it. How can cities like Dubai build condo after condo and not be over-saturated, but when Greenville tries to build 5, they get over-saturated? I know Greenville is a lot smaller than Dubai, but still I just can't see why Greenville hasn't gotten one building over 14 stories tall off the ground since 1999.

Edited May 17, 2006 by g-man430

[krazeeboi]

I don't think comparing Dubai with Greenville demonstrates your point here--two different cities in two different countries. I feel your pain though.

[g-man430]

Ok, instead of Dubai, lets say Mobile, Alabama. They can get this RSA Tower built that's like 30 stories tall or whatever and we can't even get a 13 story building built here. What's up with that?

Edited May 17, 2006 by g-man430

[Spartan]

With Dubai you are dealing with a lot of insanely wealthy people that live in the desert. A city like that is bound to be attractive. If you take a look at the rest of the city, and not the extravagant hotels, you'll see its not that different from an American one.

The difference is just economic forces. Market patterns are cyclical. Once someone takes a risk and develops something, say a mid rise condo -like the Bookends- and they are successful, others will see that the maket is there, and lots of units will be constructed. Prices will go up. Then the market will become over saturated, and they won't sell, so prices come back down. At some point the market will go back to an upswing. Greenville might just be in a lull. People definately want to live downtown, and Greenville is doing a lot of thigns right, so you can expect more at some point.

Another example is in Spartanburg. Over the past few years 2 new, large office buildings were constructed, so now more office space is being created because of a percived demand. The problem is that they arent being filled at the same rate, because the market is probably too saturated.

I'm not sure what the background is with RSA in Mobile, but with smaller cities, large offic buildings are usually not constructed unless they are backed by one or two large tenants. Odds are that in Mobile, they have found them. Being a good sized port city, and the largert in Alabama must have its benefits. If you think about it, every large port city has a decent skyline (except Charleston). In Greenville, its just a matter of time. Right now it appears to me that Greenville is focusing on high tech industry, which tends to prefer campus style offices, like ICAR. Greenville would need to alter its strategy and pursue more commercial oriented businesses... but that would be crazy given the success rate in the industrial side of things. Skyscrapers aren't everything though.

[distortedlogic]

I agree that the high-end market DT has been saturated, only so many people can afford condos in the 300k to 1.85M range. But (as has been pointed out many times in this forum) the mid to lower range idea hasn't really even been explored. Take for example the project PHC is doing on Woodruff rd. I don't see why a project like this can't be done DT with similar prices. I understand that DT land is more expensive, but it's not THAT more expensive, and the building can be made taller to help cut down on overhead, especially with over 300 units to work with.

I agree with Spartan that skyscrapers and skylines aren't everything, but they are something. I think Gville's will improve, but probably not at the rate we would like. I think some of Gville's problems getting these projects off the ground is part the transition phase between a small town and a big city. Greenville is big enough to have these type proposals made, but not big enough for many of them to come to fruition. I wonder if places like Charlotte, Austin, Memphis had similar problems 30 or 40 years ago.

[Greenville]

I agree with the points that have been made. I also think it is important to realize that Greenville is just now becoming an important city. We are now known for big business - Michelin, BMW, Bowater, etc. - plus as a blossoming city in the automotive industry. We do not have the advantage of being a historically important city or as a government center. We were known as a glorified mill town until only recently. We are still coming into our own, still developing an identity, and still educating the rest of the country (and the world) as to all that we have to offer. Other cities had a huge head start on us, and we are making up time. Our skyline will happen, but it probably won't happen overnight. I, too, am looking forward to the day when we see more towers downtown. Hopefully it will start this summer with groundbreaking for both The Pinnacle on Main as well as The Camperdown.

As we have seen, projects such as these can have a ripple effect.

[goodbye]

While I know beyond all doubt that skylines aren't "everything" about a city (Greenville is a perfect example of this fact), I would be content with even one signature tower to represent Greenville to the World. And while the original rendering for phase III of RiverPlace is not that tower, I have strong hope that the final rendering will look far more the part. Otherwise, great disappointment once again...

[GvilleSC]

Don't forget you guys, that Greenville is home to what? 6 or 7 of SC's fastest growing businesses. As these businesses grow and take up more space, it will become more limited. Then, we'll see the need for more office space downtown!

[Chickenwing]

I agree that the high-end market DT has been saturated, only so many people can afford condos in the 300k to 1.85M range. But (as has been pointed out many times in this forum) the mid to lower range idea hasn't really even been explored.

I wonder if there are any formal market studies to show what the demand would be for some midrange condos. I would think that if you could put in something in the $150K-under$200K, there would be some real demand. I know that if there had been something in that range, I would have jumped at the chance a couple of years ago.

Maybe it would have to be built a couple blocks off Main to keep the price down, but it would still be within walking distance of everything.

Maybe the reason this hasn't been explored is that the high end stuff has just been more profitable. Could be now that the high end has stalled, that someone will try something mid range.

[gs3]

Isn't McBee Station to be more moderately priced? They are having both rentals and condos correct?