Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[John E]

Thanks for the link.

Why the hell did they publish the schedule on their web site as an image? Were the HTML table tags too hard for them to implement?

They have a link for the PDF document.

Took some photos of the construction of the Kroc Center Inbound Station today:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johne777/sets/72157633159420104/

[organsnyder]

They have a link for the PDF document.

Took some photos of the construction of the Kroc Center Inbound Station today:

The PDF document is better, but it's still not ideal for many users. A screen reader browser, for instance, would have no way to present that data.

Thanks for the pics. From some of your posts, I gather that you're located near to that intersection. We must be fairly close - I'm right by Garfield Park.

[RegalTDP]

Before the current lot, it was actually just a field with tall grass, with an owner that was none too thrilled with people walking through it.

 

I used to go to elementary school across the street in the early 80s, and on the occasions where me and my sister missed the bus, we would have to walk and cut across that space. They weren't any, and still aren't any sidewalks.

 

I could have sworn there was some wetlands there too.

 

Nice, a fellow Kentwood Public survivor!  I was thinking of the concrete imprint at the north end of the lot, which appears to be a scar left from a building.  Sometime between the early 80s and now it must have existed.

Edited April 3, 2013 by RegalTDP

[John E]

Yes, the Plaster Creek Trail is on the other side of the street of my house. I'll be able to keep up with photo updates.

[sonic]

From what I can tell, these stations will be located on the edges of the street, rather than the center. That is disappointing, as I think it makes an eventual upgrade to light rail less likely.

[Allison Slater]

Considering the design and construction of buses, I don't think stations in the center would even be practical in any way?

[GRDadof3]

From what I can tell, these stations will be located on the edges of the street, rather than the center. That is disappointing, as I think it makes an eventual upgrade to light rail less likely.

 

I don't think upgrading the Silver Line route to light rail will ever happen. What would be the value proposition of spending that kind of money to upgrade? It wouldn't run any faster. You generally won't find a light rail line that travels in the road for that length, most light rail is separated from traffic (at least for the majority of travel).

 

But I have seen light rail travel on the outer lanes of the street.

 

I still think GR's best chance for "light rail" is something like the Sprinter in San Diego (or the O Train that used to run in Ottawa), traveling in freight rail corridors. Way, way cheaper.

 

[Jippy]

I don't think upgrading the Silver Line route to light rail will ever happen. What would be the value proposition of spending that kind of money to upgrade? It wouldn't run any faster. You generally won't find a light rail line that travels in the road for that length, most light rail is separated from traffic (at least for the majority of travel).

 

But I have seen light rail travel on the outer lanes of the street.

 

I still think GR's best chance for "light rail" is something like the Sprinter in San Diego (or the O Train that used to run in Ottawa), traveling in freight rail corridors. Way, way cheaper.

 

 

Your example above is "commuter rail", not "light rail".  Two very different technologies and applications. 

[GRDadof3]

Your example above is "commuter rail", not "light rail".  Two very different technologies and applications. 

 

I think you're nuancing a bit. Light rail doesn't serve "commuters?" It still serves the same purpose, getting people from point a to points b, c, d, ...

 

I would say it's closer to light rail than most BRT systems.

 

I haven't been to Charlotte but I've seen plenty of pictures of their Lynx system:

 

 

I have seen Minneapolis' light rail in action:

 

 

And I've been on Denver's:

 

 

 

 

Kinda looks similar to me.

 

I'm not knocking the Silver Line or BRT. I'm just saying that the chances of turning a BRT system into a light rail is slim to none. And I don't think you'd want to.

[GRDadof3]

Austin light rail! Using DMU's

 

[Jippy]

Confusing the two ultimately confuses the public, as they legitimately are different technologies and applications. Commuter rail is heavy rail as exemplified in Austin and San Diego above. Austin, as it appears, did a good job in attempting to blend the look to appear more "Light rail-esque".  

 

The greatest distinguishing factor is the separation between the stations (due to braking and acceleration abilities), headways, and if it can be blended in with an urban road system. Minneapolis and Charlotte both primarily rely on existing rail right-of-way, but they do get integrated into the street infrastructure at times (as do Phoenix, Denver, Portland, et al). 

 

Commuter rail would be more effective connecting GR with say Holland (ex. Miami, Orlando, MERTA - Chicago, VRE - DC/Virginia). Light rail is a more realistic application for inclusion within the streets city -- say Division, the 131 boulevard, to woodland and then to the airport.  

 

While I do have a bit of a light rail addiction, I do agree with JohnE that true BRT might be a better fit for GR. GR doesn't have the rate of population or economic growth that dictates the additional cost. True BRT (the Silver Line shares most of the qualities for "true BRT" but not entirely) can facilitate the same level of real estate development. 

[John E]

For me the ultimate transportation system would be to have a tri-bus route system for all of Kent County or even beyond with regular bus routes that run with minimal frequencies of 20 minutes or less along with express and BRT lines. With main routes running 24 hours. One idea for express routes is to have them stop between BRT Stations with on board fare collection boxes as the buses currently have. More BRT routes! More bus routes.
I do not see the need to lay down tracks when BRT buses can look, ride and run the same, just on wheels rather than expensive, intrusive rails and wires.
The three bus route systems would be:
1- Regular bus routes.
2- Express bus routes.
3- BRT routes.

Edited April 8, 2013 by John E

[John E]

After many BRT routes are in place the system could be upgraded to all prepaid, starting with the Express Routes having advanced Bus Sign Posts that could validate tickets and bus passes with the sign showing the number of validated passengers that are boarding that stop for the driver to check. Then all bus stops could be upgraded. People would be able to purchase bus tickets or passes at any BRT Station, that could be validated at Express Bus Stops and eventually every bus stop.

BTW - I have been purchasing bus passes online ever since the service was available. I'm pretty sure I was the first to purchase a bus pass online.

.

[GRDadof3]

Confusing the two ultimately confuses the public, as they legitimately are different technologies and applications. Commuter rail is heavy rail as exemplified in Austin and San Diego above. Austin, as it appears, did a good job in attempting to blend the look to appear more "Light rail-esque".  

 

The greatest distinguishing factor is the separation between the stations (due to braking and acceleration abilities), headways, and if it can be blended in with an urban road system. Minneapolis and Charlotte both primarily rely on existing rail right-of-way, but they do get integrated into the street infrastructure at times (as do Phoenix, Denver, Portland, et al). 

 

Commuter rail would be more effective connecting GR with say Holland (ex. Miami, Orlando, MERTA - Chicago, VRE - DC/Virginia). Light rail is a more realistic application for inclusion within the streets city -- say Division, the 131 boulevard, to woodland and then to the airport.  

 

While I do have a bit of a light rail addiction, I do agree with JohnE that true BRT might be a better fit for GR. GR doesn't have the rate of population or economic growth that dictates the additional cost. True BRT (the Silver Line shares most of the qualities for "true BRT" but not entirely) can facilitate the same level of real estate development. 

 

I hear ya. We all kicked around a DMU "light rail" option like Austin's on here a few years ago. Actually, it was while Austin's was in development stage.

 

There are things that will work here and things that won't. And it takes 20 years to put big transit systems into operations.  I'd like to see at least something cool and reasonable here before I die.

[John E]

I hope you all will grace me with the opportunity here to talk about The Rapid from my point of view. I have taken some flak for my support of The Rapid but will continue to mostly support them. The only gripes that I have is that they could be more transparent and all the board members should be elected from each city that is a part of The Rapid.
I have been using the bus system since arriving in Grand Rapids over a dozen years ago. When I first got here it was being run by GRATA. The system was disgusting and not really "usable". The passengers and bus drivers were not pleasant to ride with. The buses didn't even run in the evenings (except Saturday) or on Sundays.
Since ITP (The Rapid) took over, they have made many improvements. The buses are nicer, the passengers and bus drivers are great to travel with. Well, most of the passengers, lol. Such is society. There have been a whole lot of great changes over the years that have really made the bus system truly, much more "usable" and pleasant to ride. They have lived up to and exceeded all of their improvement promises and run the system under budget. I for one, am one long time Rapid rider that is very pleased with the bus system that they have become and look forward to the improvements that will and are in the process of becoming.
I am convinced that the new BRT Silver Line will be a big boost for the bus system and the area. I think it could change the nay sayers opinion about The Rapid and even public transportation. The success of the Silver Line could lead to additional BRT Lines and other improvements that could enhance the Greater Grand Rapids Area. With the start of the Silver Line the possibilities are endless.
I would like to thank The Rapid for all the improvements that they have made and making the bus system more and more "usable" and a pleasure to use.
Best wishes with expanding and improving the system.

[GRDadof3]

I hope you all will grace me with the opportunity here to talk about The Rapid from my point of view. I have taken some flak for my support of The Rapid but will continue to mostly support them. The only gripes that I have is that they could be more transparent and all the board members should be elected from each city that is a part of The Rapid.

I have been using the bus system since arriving in Grand Rapids over a dozen years ago. When I first got here it was being run by GRATA. The system was disgusting and not really "usable". The passengers and bus drivers were not pleasant to ride with. The buses didn't even run in the evenings (except Saturday) or on Sundays.

Since ITP (The Rapid) took over, they have made many improvements. The buses are nicer, the passengers and bus drivers are great to travel with. Well, most of the passengers, lol. Such is society. There have been a whole lot of great changes over the years that have really made the bus system truly, much more "usable" and pleasant to ride. They have lived up to and exceeded all of their improvement promises and run the system under budget. I for one, am one long time Rapid rider that is very pleased with the bus system that they have become and look forward to the improvements that will and are in the process of becoming.

I am convinced that the new BRT Silver Line will be a big boost for the bus system and the area. I think it could change the nay sayers opinion about The Rapid and even public transportation. The success of the Silver Line could lead to additional BRT Lines and other improvements that could enhance the Greater Grand Rapids Area. With the start of the Silver Line the possibilities are endless.

I would like to thank The Rapid for all the improvements that they have made and making the bus system more and more "usable" and a pleasure to use.

Best wishes with expanding and improving the system.

 

Nobody's knocking The Rapid or the Silver Line.

[Jippy]

I hope you all will grace me with the opportunity here to talk about The Rapid from my point of view. I have taken some flak for my support of The Rapid but will continue to mostly support them. The only gripes that I have is that they could be more transparent and all the board members should be elected from each city that is a part of The Rapid.

I have been using the bus system since arriving in Grand Rapids over a dozen years ago. When I first got here it was being run by GRATA. The system was disgusting and not really "usable". The passengers and bus drivers were not pleasant to ride with. The buses didn't even run in the evenings (except Saturday) or on Sundays.

Since ITP (The Rapid) took over, they have made many improvements. The buses are nicer, the passengers and bus drivers are great to travel with. Well, most of the passengers, lol. Such is society. There have been a whole lot of great changes over the years that have really made the bus system truly, much more "usable" and pleasant to ride. They have lived up to and exceeded all of their improvement promises and run the system under budget. I for one, am one long time Rapid rider that is very pleased with the bus system that they have become and look forward to the improvements that will and are in the process of becoming.

I am convinced that the new BRT Silver Line will be a big boost for the bus system and the area. I think it could change the nay sayers opinion about The Rapid and even public transportation. The success of the Silver Line could lead to additional BRT Lines and other improvements that could enhance the Greater Grand Rapids Area. With the start of the Silver Line the possibilities are endless.

I would like to thank The Rapid for all the improvements that they have made and making the bus system more and more "usable" and a pleasure to use.

Best wishes with expanding and improving the system.

 

Here! Here!

[Veloise]

Nobody's knocking The Rapid or the Silver Line.

Not on here, and not lately. I'm sure that hobby-free doctor in Cascade has something new schemed.

[GRDadof3]

Not on here, and not lately. I'm sure that hobby-free doctor in Cascade has something new schemed.

 

True. MLive did an article on the Silver Line and the comment section was surprisingly non-dramatic, except for someone calling the Silver Line route the "bowels of skid row."  Hmmm, maybe the Cascade Doctor has conceded this fight?

[organsnyder]

True. MLive did an article on the Silver Line and the comment section was surprisingly non-dramatic, except for someone calling the Silver Line route the "bowels of skid row."  Hmmm, maybe the Cascade Doctor has conceded this fight?

Some of the comments made me mad - especially someone suggesting that the Silver Line would make it easier for the thugs from the Hall and Division intersection to travel down to the poster's slice of heaven at 60th St. and terrorize their women and children (paraphrasing a bit).

[Jippy]

What do you think, do gandolas have a role in GR's future transit system?

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/04/golden-age-gondolas-might-be-just-around-corner/5220/#slide1

[GR_Urbanist]

I am convinced that the new BRT Silver Line will be a big boost for the bus system and the area. I think it could change the nay sayers opinion about The Rapid and even public transportation. The success of the Silver Line could lead to additional BRT Lines and other improvements that could enhance the Greater Grand Rapids Area. With the start of the Silver Line the possibilities are endless.

I would like to thank The Rapid for all the improvements that they have made and making the bus system more and more "usable" and a pleasure to use.

Best wishes with expanding and improving the system.

 

I will have to disagree with you there, John.

 

The Silver Line still reads as a mess of crossed-finger wishes, and wholesale ignorance of where this route is traveling and whom is supposed to ride it.

 

From what I can see still:

 

-The bus will not shave off a significant amount of time that the existing Division bus clocks.

 

-The stops are not heated or cooled shelters, shielded from the elements (look outside today). The only benefit is the ability to pay at the stop, which is the least of the problems riders face.

 

-The bus isnt any different than the one already in use. Basically the same design, and I'm sure horrid shocks, that makes riding on them uncomfortable, and you wont have any more room then you have now on the bus.

 

There is also this assumption that people driving on the highways will gladly opt out to park on 60th street, and wait outside for a bus to not save them anytime off of their existing car ride, afford them none of the comfort of having your own space, and no ability to take alternative routes or run errands before and after work. Any money you save will be eaten up by bus fare, and time spent.

 

And there still is no honest indication that even the planning for this line is having any economic impact. Why would it? There is already a bus that travels the commercial length of S. Division. It doesn't run more than a few minutes slower. If there was a rush of people making trips up and down Division you would already have seen these magical developments materialize. What changes now just because you have the same bus with a different name and some fancy bus shelters? The hope that a different name and fancy shelters will trick people into thinking this is different?

 

And for a few days, there will people people that will be tricked. I contend that any initial use will be the most hard-core transit activists ***the Salon*** riding it just to say they did, only to realize that there is nothing on Division from Wealthy to 60th that any of them ever wanted to go to anyway. Unless pawn shops (less entertaining than the ones on TV), and used car lots along with fast food joints are now the in thing to go to. Most commuters will get bored quick with the first cold day, or thunderstorm rolls through or when they find out that a BRT that is sharing the road with regular traffic starts showing up late. 

 

And on top of that most of the people along S. Division, south of 28th street, have cars. Much easier to just drive the car to the Meijer, or walk to some of the few independent groceries in the area, then to ride a bus that will stop at none.

 

I give it 6 months before the first news story about less-than-anticipated ridership.

 

 

 

Should have gone with a light-rail option. If nothing else it would have been something different, quicker, and more comfortable.

 

 

 

You could hook way more people with this...

 

 

 

Than this.

[John E]

I will have to disagree with you there, John.

 

The Silver Line still reads as a mess of crossed-finger wishes, and wholesale ignorance of where this route is traveling and whom is supposed to ride it.

 

From what I can see still:

 

-The bus will not shave off a significant amount of time that the existing Division bus clocks.

 

-The stops are not heated or cooled shelters, shielded from the elements (look outside today). The only benefit is the ability to pay at the stop, which is the least of the problems riders face.

 

-The bus isnt any different than the one already in use. Basically the same design, and I'm sure horrid shocks, that makes riding on them uncomfortable, and you wont have any more room then you have now on the bus.

 

There is also this assumption that people driving on the highways will gladly opt out to park on 60th street, and wait outside for a bus to not save them anytime off of their existing car ride, afford them none of the comfort of having your own space, and no ability to take alternative routes or run errands before and after work. Any money you save will be eaten up by bus fare, and time spent.

 

And there still is no honest indication that even the planning for this line is having any economic impact. Why would it? There is already a bus that travels the commercial length of S. Division. It doesn't run more than a few minutes slower. If there was a rush of people making trips up and down Division you would already have seen these magical developments materialize. What changes now just because you have the same bus with a different name and some fancy bus shelters? The hope that a different name and fancy shelters will trick people into thinking this is different?

 

And for a few days, there will people people that will be tricked. I contend that any initial use will be the most hard-core transit activists ***the Salon*** riding it just to say they did, only to realize that there is nothing on Division from Wealthy to 60th that any of them ever wanted to go to anyway. Unless pawn shops (less entertaining than the ones on TV), and used car lots along with fast food joints are now the in thing to go to. Most commuters will get bored quick with the first cold day, or thunderstorm rolls through or when they find out that a BRT that is sharing the road with regular traffic starts showing up late. 

 

And on top of that most of the people along S. Division, south of 28th street, have cars. Much easier to just drive the car to the Meijer, or walk to some of the few independent groceries in the area, then to ride a bus that will stop at none.

 

I give it 6 months before the first news story about less-than-anticipated ridership.

 

 

 

Should have gone with a light-rail option. If nothing else it would have been something different, quicker, and more comfortable.

 

 

 

You could hook way more people with this...

 

 

 

Than this.

Wow, I'm even having a hard time deciding if I even should reply to this.

The Silver Line will be close to a light rail line on wheels.

The buses aren't even built yet. They will be advanced BRT buses that will rival light rail coaches.

The stations are permanent not movable bus stops.

The stations and BRT Coaches will allow level boarding with wider doors for quick and easy passenger movement.

Passengers prepaying will decrease boarding times.

Decreased boarding times, few stops, traffic light priority with dedicated lanes will absolutely decrease travel time.

The Rapid was surprised with the number of people that used their park and ride shuttle during the reconstruction of 131.

Permanent transit stations have been proven to increase development.

The stations are sufficient for 10 to 30 minute frequencies.

The BRT Silver Line will use advanced coaches with stations and other features that are the same as light rail.

[John E]

This image from a Rapid Growth Media article shows how it will look just like a light rail system:

 

Very good article about the Silver Line system too.
http://rapidgrowthmedia.com/features/SilverLine03282013.aspx

[organsnyder]

-The bus will not shave off a significant amount of time that the existing Division bus clocks.

-The stops are not heated or cooled shelters, shielded from the elements (look outside today). The only benefit is the ability to pay at the stop, which is the least of the problems riders face.

-The bus isnt any different than the one already in use. Basically the same design, and I'm sure horrid shocks, that makes riding on them uncomfortable, and you wont have any more room then you have now on the bus.

This sounds like the opinion of someone who has never actually ridden a bus. Anyone who has used one (I admit it's been a few years since I used The Rapid regularly) knows how much time is wasted waiting for passengers to fumble with crumpled up dollar bills at the farebox. The next most prevalent reason for delays, in my experience, is accommodating handicapped riders (not saying that they're a problem - just that boarding them takes time). Level boarding helps a lot with this issue (though there'd still be some time spent securing wheelchair restraints, I'd imagine). Add in other benefits like prioritized signals and dedicated lanes, and I can see where they're getting their time savings estimates.

Most Chicago El stations aren't climate controlled either, IIRC. Neither are the stations for the Minneapolis streetcar line. Plenty of people get along just fine by dressing appropriately for the weather, and using such practical accessories as boots and umbrellas.

I don't know specifics on the fleet they're purchasing, but they're not the same models that run on the regular routes. At one time, articulated buses were discussed, though I'm not sure if they're still on the table. While the buses won't have the same "oooh, shiny!" factor as streetcars, they will be distinctive from the rest of the fleet.

There is also this assumption that people driving on the highways will gladly opt out to park on 60th street, and wait outside for a bus to not save them anytime off of their existing car ride, afford them none of the comfort of having your own space, and no ability to take alternative routes or run errands before and after work. Any money you save will be eaten up by bus fare, and time spent.

And there still is no honest indication that even the planning for this line is having any economic impact. Why would it? There is already a bus that travels the commercial length of S. Division. It doesn't run more than a few minutes slower. If there was a rush of people making trips up and down Division you would already have seen these magical developments materialize. What changes now just because you have the same bus with a different name and some fancy bus shelters? The hope that a different name and fancy shelters will trick people into thinking this is different?

People with that mentality will never be attracted to mass transit. However, people that have limited parking at work (as DT continues to thrive, parking spaces will become more expensive, giving employers additional incentive to encourage their employees to seek alternative commuting options), as well as people that like to relax while someone else does most of the driving, or to interact with others, will be attracted to it.

I will admit that part of the appeal of this project is in its appearance - by not looking like a normal bus line, it will appeal to people who might otherwise see buses as transportation for poor people and wide-eyed ideologues (who are also probably poor). The permanent stations make a statement - we're investing in infrastructure that can't be removed simply by pulling up signposts. The improvements in safety (snow melt, lighting, emergency call boxes) and operations (discussed above) are a bigger part. Companies want to be located in areas where the citizens have shown a commitment to improving their infrastructure.

And for a few days, there will people people that will be tricked. I contend that any initial use will be the most hard-core transit activists ***the Salon*** riding it just to say they did, only to realize that there is nothing on Division from Wealthy to 60th that any of them ever wanted to go to anyway. Unless pawn shops (less entertaining than the ones on TV), and used car lots along with fast food joints are now the in thing to go to. Most commuters will get bored quick with the first cold day, or thunderstorm rolls through or when they find out that a BRT that is sharing the road with regular traffic starts showing up late.

And on top of that most of the people along S. Division, south of 28th street, have cars. Much easier to just drive the car to the Meijer, or walk to some of the few independent groceries in the area, then to ride a bus that will stop at none.

If there are zero developments along the line over the next 10-20 years, then this statement will be true. However, that has not been not the experience of other cities that have put in BRT lines; transit infrastructure - even "streetcar-lite" BRT lines - is a selling point for many businesses. I'm looking forward to seeing a Wealthy-esque revitalization occur at Burton and Division.

 

You're right that this route will not be used by people living near 54th & Division to make trips to Meijer. No one is claiming that (unless they're propping up a straw man); it is intended to be used mainly by people going downtown for work, entertainment, and events.

 

I give it 6 months before the first news story about less-than-anticipated ridership.

I'm sure you're right about this. Typical WOODTV and Mlive readers eat that sort of thing up, and those companies are craving eyeballs for their advertisers. The instant that there's a whiff of something that can be blown up into a "Target 8 On Your Side Special Investigative Report", they'll be there, making up their own facts and inflated expectations along the way.

Should have gone with a light-rail option. If nothing else it would have been something different, quicker, and more comfortable.

You could hook way more people with this...

(image of a streetcar from a metropolitan area four times our size) 

Than this.

(image of a regular Rapid bus, from a 2009 GR Press article)

I agree that a light-rail line would be "different, quicker, and more comfortable". It'd also be significantly more expensive to build. And not fund-able through Very Small Starts USDOT grants. And not realistic for our city's needs (right now).

By the way, here's an actual rendering of a Silver Line bus:

I will admit to being biased. Last year, we purchased a house in Garfield Park that is a quarter-mile from the Burton Silver Line stop. While not a deal-maker (the abnormally large lot size and historic house share that credit), the proximity to the BRT line, as well as the Burton road diet, were factors in our decision. We're looking forward to taking our kids (two so far - 2yo and 4wo) on the Silver Line to go shopping at the Downtown Market, to Symphony concerts, to museums, to ArtPrize, and to downtown restaurants (the last one not with the kids, at least some of the time), without having to worry about finding parking downtown.

I very much hope that the Silver Line brings the anticipated levels of development - the Burton Heights business district is in need of investment beyond the cheap-rent cell-phone and XXX shops. However, even without that investment, I will be happy to utilize the new service - perhaps even for commuting, should I end up working downtown at some point.

Would I have preferred a streetcar along that route? Absolutely. However, given our current transit needs and the national political climate, that isn't a realistic proposition right now.

Edit: Looks like John beat me to it with the factual imagery and factual facts.

Edited April 9, 2013 by organsnyder