Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[GR_Urbanist]

This sounds like the opinion of someone who has never actually ridden a bus. 

 

Rode the #4 and 6 most of last year. Thanks for asking. The most time wasted was because the bus was stuck in traffic, not on people paying. Somehow we managed the transaction without blowing 15 minutes.

 

Edit: Looks like John beat me to it with the factual imagery and factual facts.

 

Nice article, but it really didnt address what I'd said. It's still more of the same. "This is going to cause millions of dollars in development and have thousands of riders per day" proclamations without filling in how a bus that only runs 44% faster, and more frequently for only 6 hours a day, along a route that already has a bus, with a population that voted against it, is going to magically work out, and turn Division into Eugene, Oregon or Euclid Ave.? Nevermind that those places are as far from S. Division as you can get.

 

Oh well. I still give it 6 months.

[Veloise]

Some of the comments made me mad - especially someone suggesting that the Silver Line would make it easier for the thugs from the Hall and Division intersection to travel down to the poster's slice of heaven at 60th St. and terrorize their women and children (paraphrasing a bit).

But of course. Why, just look at the criminal fall-out from every bicycle trail ever built...miscreants pedal up and steal TVs, leave trash and waste in residents' yards, and otherwise use those peaceful recreational corridors to ply their trades.

 

/sarcasm

[GR8scott]

Interesting read here and I gota say I think this is a good start and appropriate for the metro area but I am also skeptical of what this will actually bring and also if the ridership will be as projected?

 

 

I agree with GR urbanist's comment "You could hook way more people with this..." although the bus picture was wrong, the idea is probably true. I think most people still see a bus and will not be as inclined to park and ride when they can just drive. Trains on the other hand attract people more so than buses, just look at the Detroit people mover people ride that just for fun. Yes, lightrail is a lot more expensive and at the moment unnecessary for GR, but to get the ball rolling and put in place in 20 years it could be a much different story. Denver did it mostly by using freeway right-of-ways, the problem here is the areas for light rail demand would be very expensive and would probably have to use street tracks or possibly use. I hope the BRT is a sucess and maybe one day light rail will be an option. 

[John E]

I think most will be surprised with the numbers who use the park and ride system with the BRT. The Rapid was surprised with the number of people using the park and ride with the regular bus shuttle when they were reconstructing the S-Curve.

The only difference between light rail and BRT is that BRT's use wheels rather than tracks. They operate the same. Tracks are expensive and do not provide for extending routes with ease. I really don't think we need tracks. I'm sure the BRT system will provide the same level of service.
I think people are way too caught up in the cool factor of a light rail system. The Silver Line will be the same as a light rail system other than the coaches being on wheels.

My main point in writing the post was to show how much The Rapid has improved since taking over from GRATA and that the future potential for more improvements could very well increase with the success of the Silver Line.

[GRDadof3]

The buses won't look exactly like that. They will be hybrid buses, not the same kind as currently owned, and will be branded differently than the rest of the fleet. That's all the rapid will say.

They're also very hesitant to give ridership estimates, for good reason. Every anti-transit group uses those as gotcha meat down the road after the system is up and running.

This will be better than the current route and system, and nowhere near as impactful as light rail (sorry John, don't know what pro BRT libertarian website you locked onto but it's wrong). Somewhere in the middle is what you can expect.

And as someone said, there are a lot of non-heated transit stations in cold climates. Hello, brown line Chicago.

[John E]

We do know that they will be hybrid buses with WIDER DOORS at a specific height for level boarding. Using the BRT system will be much different than the regular bus system.
BRT systems are light rail on wheels. There is no difference between a BRT station and a light rail station.
Vehicle pull up to station, both sets of wide doors open, riders get off and on, then vehicle drives to the next station. They operate the same.
The truth is that for the riders there are no additional benefits with light rail over BRT.

BRT libertarian website, lol.
Compared and looked at the specific facts of each system.
Researched to get the facts in order to learn the truth. I guess you could call me a truther, lol.
May the truth be known.
 

[organsnyder]

Judging by his other posts, I don't often agree with John, but I'm having a difficult time refuting his arguments (ad hominem attacks on his sources aside). Perhaps it's buried somewhere in this 136-page thread, but what are the operational differences are that make light rail so much better? Most of the big advantages - level boarding, prepaid fares, dedicated lanes, etc. - are also inherent to BRT. Light rail vehicles have higher capacities than even the biggest articulated buses, of course, but capacity can always be increased with more vehicles (with the added benefit of increased frequencies).

I'm assuming that any "light rail" we'd realistically consider would share ROW on public streets (some people might call this a "streetcar" - it's my understanding that the delineation between the terms can be fairly ambiguous). The only real dedicated lines I can see are lines that run on freight rail, but most of our current railways don't line up with good transit routes (perhaps with the exception of the eastern CSX line, which could make a good airport connector, but there's not many other places in between GR and downtown where it'd make sense to have stops).

Of course, grade-separated rail has hosts of benefits over shared-ROW anything, but I'm not sure I see the benefits of shared-ROW light rail over BRT, at least for moving as many people as quickly as possible. Other factors - rider comfort, appearance - make light rail desirable for promoting public transit, but we need to be careful to get the most bang for our buck.

I consider myself to be fairly progressive. However, I think the best way to advance the progressive agenda is to do projects that work - anti-government nuts will always invent plenty of perceived faults to complain about; let's not give them actual failures to trumpet. I'm hoping that the Silver Line is a "gateway drug" to bigger and better projects; however, I'm not about to let the perfect be an enemy of the good.

[GRJohn]

I agree.  I don't think anyone is saying that the Silver Line will be the last public transit project ever undertaken.  When people see the benefits of the BRT such as new development around Division, they may be more inclined to support such large projects in the future (more BRT, light-rail).  The BRT was approved with a little more than 130 votes, does anyone here think that more votes could have been cast in favor if it were a light rail line with a MUCH larger tax increase?  Maybe if the only people voting were the people on this forum:).  I want light-rail as much as anyone on this forum.  I truly believe that it will be here one day sooner rather than later but we need to change a lot of perception about public transit in the minds of people that live in the state that was built on the car.  I think "gateway drug" is a wonderful example of what the Silver Line is.

[sfloria]

There are a lot of people that have cars, such as myself, but I had to take the bus to work everyday because my employer wouldn't provide parking for me.  It saved a lot of money paying for a monthly pass on the bus rather than a monthly fee at a parking ramp.  I'd be curious if more employers would stop providing parking if they knew there were options to park and ride the Silver Line.  Maybe it ends up taking commuters more time but if they save money each month taking the Silver Line rather than paying for parking, that could add to ridership. 

[GRDadof3]

I agree.  I don't think anyone is saying that the Silver Line will be the last public transit project ever undertaken.  When people see the benefits of the BRT such as new development around Division, they may be more inclined to support such large projects in the future (more BRT, light-rail).  The BRT was approved with a little more than 130 votes, does anyone here think that more votes could have been cast in favor if it were a light rail line with a MUCH larger tax increase?  Maybe if the only people voting were the people on this forum:).  I want light-rail as much as anyone on this forum.  I truly believe that it will be here one day sooner rather than later but we need to change a lot of perception about public transit in the minds of people that live in the state that was built on the car.  I think "gateway drug" is a wonderful example of what the Silver Line is.

 

 

I only brought up the libertarian statement because that's what I've seen, websites touting BRT over light rail that almost entirely just look at the cost difference to put them in. Only at the cost, nothing else.

 

Here's a video of the Eugene, Oregon BRT in action:

 

 

The Silver Line will be cool, but it will be what it is. I was initially heavily against the Silver Line. I decided for the good of the community I'd shut up (because we aren't getting real light rail in my lifetime). I think I'll go back to that.

[John E]

 

Wow, just did a screen capture and ended up with this.
Silver Line BRT Animation Image with my desktop wallpaper.
Full screen, full resolution here:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8116/8647859259_a94fcec583_o.jpg

I also took some more pictures of the Silver Line BRT Station construction at the Kroc Center yesterday.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johne777/archives/date-posted/2013/04/13/

.

Edited April 14, 2013 by John E

[GRDadof3]

 

Wow, just did a screen capture and ended up with this.

Silver Line BRT Animation Image with my desktop wallpaper.

Full screen, full resolution here:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8116/8647859259_a94fcec583_o.jpg

I also took some more pictures of the Silver Line BRT Station construction at the Kroc Center yesterday.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johne777/archives/date-posted/2013/04/13/

.

 

 

FYI, the Silver Line buses will not look exactly like that, says The Rapid. They're more of an "artists rendering." Some of the station locations have also been changed from that video. They will all be hybrid electric, not like the current hybrid electric models, and will be branded differently than the regular fleet.

[John E]

FYI, the Silver Line buses will not look exactly like that, says The Rapid. They're more of an "artists rendering." Some of the station locations have also been changed from that video. They will all be hybrid electric, not like the current hybrid electric models, and will be branded differently than the regular fleet.

I have been aware of that. I have asked for an updated animation. I have also asked them to add information on the "fair vending machines" that will be at each station to their website.

[John E]

Any word on when they are going to start construction on the new Amtrak Station?
Last I heard is that they are waiting for Amtrak and CSX to come to an agreement on the new signal and switching.

[GRJohn]

Any word on when they are going to start construction on the new Amtrak Station?

Last I heard is that they are waiting for Amtrak and CSX to come to an agreement on the new signal and switching.

 

I've heard construction will start in July.

[John E]

I've heard construction will start in July.

 

Thank you. I am beginning to wonder if the delays are so the opening date will coincide with the start of the Silver Line, lol.

[organsnyder]

Thank you. I am beginning to wonder if the delays are so the opening date will coincide with the start of the Silver Line, lol.

It's my understanding (fourth-hand knowledge) that the delay was at least partially due to negotiations with CSX over track usage.

[GRDadof3]

It's my understanding (fourth-hand knowledge) that the delay was at least partially due to negotiations with CSX over track usage.

 

Exactly. CSX quoted The Rapid one price before the project, and then after The Rapid got approval from the feds and acquired funding, CSX upped the price x10. Nice of them, eh?  So I hear.

[Raildudes dad]

I would be more inclined to believe the consultant did not get a timely response (as in any respsonse) from CSX and put their estimate of cost in the project. After many months of trying to get a response, they finally did get one and obtained CSX's estimate. It was no wheres close to the consultants estimate. Plus, you are captive to them doing the work. Their employees must do any work within 25 feet of the center of the track. There is no governmental discount either

 

I have personal experience dealing with CSX and I think they try to ignore any request from anyone trying to work on their property. One needs to be very persistant to get any response let alone a postive one

Edited April 16, 2013 by Raildudes dad

[arcturus]

Who was this 'consultant' they hired who failed to understand that CSX had GR by the nuts on this?

[GRDadof3]

Who was this 'consultant' they hired who failed to understand that CSX had GR by the nuts on this?

 

None of us were in on the process when it all went down. My understanding is that they were told one thing and then told something else later on. But who are you going to complain to? CSX customer service? Ha.

[arcturus]

None of us were in on the process when it all went down. My understanding is that they were told one thing and then told something else later on. But who are you going to complain to? CSX customer service? Ha.

 

Customer service can't be any worse than AT&T My point is If CSX had a demonstrable history of being noncommittal then wasn't this common knowledge?  Why would the Rapid act upon a consultant's report knowing their history?  What kind of experience did the consultant have in dealing with CSX? Were they hired on this basis, or was the Rapid simply trying to legitimize their efforts by claiming due diligence was performed through this consultant's hiring, knowing full well that whatever the consultant said was pretty much worthless?

[Raildudes dad]

Customer service can't be any worse than AT&T My point is If CSX had a demonstrable history of being noncommittal then wasn't this common knowledge?  Why would the Rapid act upon a consultant's report knowing their history?  What kind of experience did the consultant have in dealing with CSX? Were they hired on this basis, or was the Rapid simply trying to legitimize their efforts by claiming due diligence was performed through this consultant's hiring, knowing full well that whatever the consultant said was pretty much worthless?

 

I've been working with Class 1 RR's for almost 40 years. Used to be they had local staff you could talk to.  Those days are long gone. Finding who you need to talk to is a challenge, then then getting a response is the next challenge. If you have never worked with a Class 1, you wouldn't know what your getting in to.

 

The Rapid has Progressive AE as their contract A/E firm. They partnered with another firm ( I cannot find the name) for this project. The PM is an architect. I attended a meeting where they explained the depot could not be north of Wealthy because the Wealthy Street bridge was too low. I'm old enough to remember when that area was an active rail yard. I'm not sure whether he was that dumb or he thought I was too dumb to realize the facts.

 

I have my suspicions what happened and I don't think the Rapid or their consultant will admit it. Looking for the firm Progressive partnered with I noticed the estimated cost has gone from $3.8 Million to just short of $6 million. Looks like a number of things have gone wrong on this project.

[John E]

I've been working with Class 1 RR's for almost 40 years. Used to be they had local staff you could talk to.  Those days are long gone. Finding who you need to talk to is a challenge, then then getting a response is the next challenge. If you have never worked with a Class 1, you wouldn't know what your getting in to.

 

The Rapid has Progressive AE as their contract A/E firm. They partnered with another firm ( I cannot find the name) for this project. The PM is an architect. I attended a meeting where they explained the depot could not be north of Wealthy because the Wealthy Street bridge was too low. I'm old enough to remember when that area was an active rail yard. I'm not sure whether he was that dumb or he thought I was too dumb to realize the facts.

 

I have my suspicions what happened and I don't think the Rapid or their consultant will admit it. Looking for the firm Progressive partnered with I noticed the estimated cost has gone from $3.8 Million to just short of $6 million. Looks like a number of things have gone wrong on this project.

Here is an article on the cost increase:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2012/06/grand_rapids_new_amtrak_statio.html

[John E]

New photos of the Rapid's Silver Line BRT Station construction at the Kroc Center:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johne777/archives/date-posted/2013/04/21/