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Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids


GRDadof3

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How much baggage do most people take when going to Chicago? I think there will be some who will use the Rapid to not inconvenience others with the new Amtrak Station there. How many is yet to be seen. We have to admit that options are good to have.

 

Well if you're patient enough to take Amtrak, then I assume you're in for a 3 - 4 day excursion, which means probably a pretty good sized bag.

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I've always driven to the current Amtrak location or had a friend drop me off, but now that it is going to be next to the bus station I'm more likely to take the bus.  Luckily my house is along the #2 route so it's easy to take downtown.  I'd rather leave my car at my house while I'm gone than downtown in an unsecured lot.

 

If returning Saturday or Sunday you won't make it back in time to catch one.

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"A Regional Opportunity Oversight Between Ford Airport and GVSU-Allendale"

 

With a hard-won transit millage behind us and with all of the transit expansion possibilities in the future that it has made more attainable now (like the 2014 opening of the Silverline BRT), it could be considered reasonable for anyone to have noticed that between Grand Valley State University-Allendale and Gerald R. Ford International Airport exists an alignment that includes the following:

 

-Standale/Wilson
-Millenium Park/John Ball Zoo
-GVSU-Robert Pew
-Central Station North <Bus Transit>/Central Station South <Rail Transit>
-Calder Plaza/DeVos Place
-Medical District/Spectrum-Butterworth/Grand Rapids Community College
-GRCC-Fulton Street
-Aquinas College
-Eastown
-Spectrum-Blodgett
-Gaslight Village/EGR
-Breton Village Towne Center
-Calvin College
-Western Michigan University-East Beltline
-Woodland Mall
-AeroTech Business Park

 

It would seem that such an alignment would be capable of circumventing traditional "we're not big enough" dogma (because of its unprecedented alignment of 18 super-regional destinations) and of growing a very dense and uniquely linear/vertical urban hub connected by fixed-guideway transit between Ford and GVSU-Allendale (with sprawl-limitation public covenents put in place to limit development to within a zone of 1-5 blocks from the rail station corridor).  Such a corridor today does have the advantages of 1] passing through the 700,000-person hub of the greater 1.3 million-person Grand Metro Area, 2] being midway between Chicago and Detroit as well as 3] being in shuttle bus proximity to 47 miles of what many regional supporters refer to as the "Grand Riviera" that stretches between Muskegon and Saugatuck as the beachfront of Michigan's West Coast.

 

. . . . just sayin' . . . .  :camera:

 

metrogrkid

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The argument against light-rail is not the "we're not big enough dogma", rather it is cost and lack of flexibility. BRT is the way to go. Has all the benefits of light rail with the flexibility of BRT at a fraction of the cost. The stations of a BRT line are just as permanent as light rail stations. The stations are the same. The development around the stations would be impacted the same. BRT systems would not shut down do to power failures or accidents in a given area. BRT systems have the option for detours whereas light rail would not.

As the Downtown Market has been a total success so far, I'm sure the SilverLine will be a total success and we could get more BRT lines in the future.

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Im not downplaying the BRT system going up but I find it hard to believe it would have the same impact as a light rail. The stations are not the same...fact. Many light rail stations are MUCH larger and Longer platforms with covered bridges over roads and parking ramps for commuters. The cost is obvious much less to implement a BRT but it remains to be seen how much of an impact it will have on redevelopment and what kind of ridership it will have. I believe the S. Division redevelopment going on now is not directly related to the BRT but just a natural progression and spill over from downtown and even the marketplace. Non the less I hope BRT success and we can diversify transportation offerings and eventually get a light rail. I speak from experience there is a conceptual difference in peoples mind about taking the light rail vs BRT (bus). 

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Im not downplaying the BRT system going up but I find it hard to believe it would have the same impact as a light rail. The stations are not the same...fact. Many light rail stations are MUCH larger and Longer platforms with covered bridges over roads and parking ramps for commuters. The cost is obvious much less to implement a BRT but it remains to be seen how much of an impact it will have on redevelopment and what kind of ridership it will have. I believe the S. Division redevelopment going on now is not directly related to the BRT but just a natural progression and spill over from downtown and even the marketplace. Non the less I hope BRT success and we can diversify transportation offerings and eventually get a light rail. I speak from experience there is a conceptual difference in peoples mind about taking the light rail vs BRT (bus). 

 

 

I think that's pretty much spot on.

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Why would the Rapid build a streetcar or light rail line when they could build two or three BRT lines for the same price?
BRT systems are the same as light rail. BRT systems can be built as sophisticated as the amount of money the public is willing to spend. The only difference between the two is that BRT buses are light rail on wheels.
In my opinion light rail is brainwashed stupidity.

BRT stations can be built as large as needed. The size of a station does not determine it's permanency. The size of a station does not determine the development growth around the station.

Side note: Bill Kirk (Who now works with Downtown Grand Rapids Inc.) agrees with me that light rail is not worth the money and BRT systems provide much more bang for the buck, with providing the same service with more flexibility.

Another note is that there are only a few companies that manufacture light rail cars and many more that manufacture BRT buses.

The Rapid must have purchased the BRT buses to be built by now. I wish they would show us what they will be like.
I think the Rapid is now handicapped without having Bill Kirk, lol.

It would also be cool to know how it is going with purchasing the parking lot for the 60th Street Station park and ride plan.

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The argument against light-rail is not the "we're not big enough dogma", rather it is cost and lack of flexibility. BRT is the way to go. Has all the benefits of light rail with the flexibility of BRT at a fraction of the cost. The stations of a BRT line are just as permanent as light rail stations. The stations are the same. The development around the stations would be impacted the same. BRT systems would not shut down do to power failures or accidents in a given area. BRT systems have the option for detours whereas light rail would not.

As the Downtown Market has been a total success so far, I'm sure the SilverLine will be a total success and we could get more BRT lines in the future.

 

John:

 

As one who has served on the Great Transit/Grand Tomorrows (GT2) Steering Committee of GRATA/ITP/The Rapid that planned Central Station North, Central Station South and the Silverline BRT, I must concur with my colleague GR8scott about the enormous difference in the Silverline BRT vs. LRT and/or HRT (lightrail and/or metrorail) stations.  I was one of a vocal minority on GT2 that was in opposition to our current Silverline station design since to us it amounted to glorified bus shelters and, worse yet to us, the design opted away from the much more robust and LRT-inspired stations of highly successful BRTs like the MetroVia BRT system in Guayaquil Ecuador (that TRULY looks AND functions like lightrail AND attracts the ridership/development of lightrail).

 

Also, please know that the Silverline BRT was meant from the start to be a local demonstration project for the Federal Transportation Administration (FTA) to see what Metro GR could accomplish with a Small Starts grant as a precursor to potential support for larger (READ: LRT, SRT <streetrail> and CRT <commuter rail transit>) initiatives in the future along a Michigan/Bridge BRT corridor, a Downtown-to-Cedar Springs/Rockford CRT corridor along U.S.-131, a Monroe/Market SRT corridor and the GVSU-Allendale/GRFord Airport LRT/HRT corridor.  Rest assured that even with the Silverline's station weakness, it will definitely position us regionally to be in the best position of any region in Michigan to successfully step up to larger-impact transit projects in the future.

 

Check out the Guayaquil MetroVia BRT here -->: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaa1BQ4ScW0

Edited by metrogrkid
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Why would the Rapid build a streetcar or light rail line when they could build two or three BRT lines for the same price?

BRT systems are the same as light rail. BRT systems can be built as sophisticated as the amount of money the public is willing to spend. The only difference between the two is that BRT buses are light rail on wheels.

In my opinion light rail is brainwashed stupidity.

...

 

That argument is so 1930's.  :yawn:  I don't know how successful an actual lightrail line would be at this moment, but I definitely think Grand Rapids could handle the beginnings of a new streetcar network.

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Why would the Rapid build a streetcar or light rail line when they could build two or three BRT lines for the same price?

BRT systems are the same as light rail. BRT systems can be built as sophisticated as the amount of money the public is willing to spend. The only difference between the two is that BRT buses are light rail on wheels.

In my opinion light rail is brainwashed stupidity.

BRT stations can be built as large as needed. The size of a station does not determine it's permanency. The size of a station does not determine the development growth around the station.

Side note: Bill Kirk (Who now works with Downtown Grand Rapids Inc.) agrees with me that light rail is not worth the money and BRT systems provide much more bang for the buck, with providing the same service with more flexibility.

Another note is that there are only a few companies that manufacture light rail cars and many more that manufacture BRT buses.

The Rapid must have purchased the BRT buses to be built by now. I wish they would show us what they will be like.

I think the Rapid is now handicapped without having Bill Kirk, lol.

It would also be cool to know how it is going with purchasing the parking lot for the 60th Street Station park and ride plan.

 

I know Bill and he's a great guy. Doesn't mean he's right.

 

The Silver Line is the right thing for GR at this point in time. But it's not the same as light rail (or rail period).

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The underlying difficulty with any light rail is that of boundaries. To be successful it will necessarily have to reach across several jurisdictions. Right now the Rapid has difficulty enough stopping poking into Cascade (how it will ever get to Tanger in Byron Center -- a necessity, mind you -- is another political conundrum). The fact is that the surrounding townships have thought of transit as belong to "them" and so have erected political barriers to its expansion. For instance, logical as it might seem, there is no cross-town connection along  the 44th corridor, though with the airport as a terminus, this seems a natural.

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General Motors made a bunch of films back in the day claiming buses were better than rail, and convinced a lot of city planners they were right. The result was all the streetcar lines were torn out. Great, wasn't it?

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General Motors made a bunch of films back in the day claiming buses were better than rail, and convinced a lot of city planners they were right. The result was all the streetcar lines were torn out. Great, wasn't it?

 

 

The auto companies would never join together to eliminate competition, said nobody ever.

 

Sincerely,

 

Preston Tucker.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey, MDOT released rail statistics for the previous year for a few days ago, and it showed record ridership for the combined Michigan Services, but the Pere Marquette actually had a pretty noticeable drop in passengers from the previous year (down 4.4% from FY 2012), with the Grand Rapids station having the largest drop of any station in the state (down 8.9%).  What could explain this if anyone had to guess?  I thought maybe it was the construction of the new station, but plenty of other stations are/have been under construction/renovation in the state.  Hopefully, the new stations attracts new riders that may not have even considered because of the old station.

Edited by Lmichigan
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The new stations construction doesn't effect the current station at all.  That can't be the reason.  I'd say it's Megabus that caused the drop in ridership.

 

Yep, it was speculated a year ago.

 

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/24613-transit-updates-for-greater-grand-rapids/?view=findpost&p=1243783

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I suspect numbers will get to normal the more the track upgrades come online, though.  There are still some chokepoints in Indiana and Illinois that still need to be completed.  I mean, it's not as if intercity bus service is a totally new piece of competition to rail.  This may simply be statistical noise, though, it was enough to get me to notice.  Flint and East Lansing also saw slighter drops.  Still, it appears that the Wolverine will continue to be the line to drive ridership, which is understandable as Amtrak will have nearly complete control over that rail line in the coming years.

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I suspect numbers will get to normal the more the track upgrades come online, though.  There are still some chokepoints in Indiana and Illinois that still need to be completed.  I mean, it's not as if intercity bus service is a totally new piece of competition to rail.  This may simply be statistical noise, though, it was enough to get me to notice.  Flint and East Lansing also saw slighter drops.  Still, it appears that the Wolverine will continue to be the line to drive ridership, which is understandable as Amtrak will have nearly complete control over that rail line in the coming years.

 

I totally think it's Megabus. Unlike Greyhound and Indian Trails, MegasBus does a straight shot to Chicago (no stops in pudunkyville towns), in a little over 3 hours (about how long it takes to drive your car there). And it costs about 2/3's of an Amtrak ticket, which from here is hit or miss as to how long it will take due to freight rail traffic in the Indiana area.

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