Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[x99]

17 hours ago, scottythe1nonly said:

GR could do a number of other things to lessen rush our congestion.  A simple thing would be getting employers to stagger work start/end times.  I work on a campus with several thousand people.  Almost all of them drive alone in their cars every morning.  Our 8am start time is the same as virtually every office in the metro area.  

Very true.  It's currently 9AM and you could shoot a rifle up most downtown streets and not hit anything.  An hour ago, they were packed.  If I go in early at 7:30, same story. 

18 hours ago, organsnyder said:

We'll also need to update our numbers for buses, then, since hybrid busses are quite prevalent (does ITP buy any non-hybrids anymore?). According to an old NYT article I dug up (Googled for "hybrid bus mpg"), hybrid buses get around 4 MPG, compared to 2.75 MPG for non-hybrids.

The numbers are adjusted for 3.91mpg.  Even using four, the average for GR city buses would be somewhere around 8 passenger miles per gallon.   If I put two people in my car it gets 80...  If I carpool with four it gets 160.   For a bus to get that high, it would need a full seated load on both legs of its trip, and going to and from the bus garage.  That's basically impossible.

[scottythe1nonly]

anybody following the autonomous "shuttles" coming to Ann Arbor.  The company that the University is working with is going to build these in SE Michigan.  These will have a look and feel that's a lot different from what's currently used today on campus, which is more like our DASH service.  If these are reliable i wonder whether these could be an alternative to streetcars, while also avoiding the bus stereotypes discussed above

http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2017/06/mcity_will_offer_driverless_sh.html

 

https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/21/15848098/michigan-driverless-shuttle-navya-mcity

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by scottythe1nonly

[Pattmost20]

6 hours ago, scottythe1nonly said:

anybody following the autonomous "shuttles" coming to Ann Arbor.  The company that the University is working with is going to build these in SE Michigan.  These will have a look and feel that's a lot different from what's currently used today on campus, which is more like our DASH service.  If these are reliable i wonder whether these could be an alternative to streetcars, while also avoiding the bus stereotypes discussed above

http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2017/06/mcity_will_offer_driverless_sh.html

 

https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/21/15848098/michigan-driverless-shuttle-navya-mcity

 

They look very similar to automated buses that are already running in Lyon, France. They have been running there for over a year without incident. Last I heard they were looking to expand the program to other parts of the city.

[scottythe1nonly]

2 hours ago, Pattmost20 said:

They look very similar to automated buses that are already running in Lyon, France. They have been running there for over a year without incident. Last I heard they were looking to expand the program to other parts of the city.

same buses.  French company.  

I like the look of them.  Low speed and all electric so they would be quiet, smooth.  good for short routes in the city

[Pattmost20]

2 hours ago, scottythe1nonly said:

same buses.  French company.  

I like the look of them.  Low speed and all electric so they would be quiet, smooth.  good for short routes in the city

I didn't ride them, but I saw them around town and they were really cool.

[organsnyder]

Looks like The Rapid is going to be migrating to CNG:

https://www.facebook.com/events/207713293089847

Quote

There will be 28 new alternative fuel vehicle hitting the road in 2017 and plans call for the fleet to include 104 CNG buses by 2021. Over the five-year period, the transition to CNG buses will: 
▪ Reduce The Rapid and Mobile GR greenhouse gas emissions by more than 1 million metric tons over the use of diesel
▪ Generate a total combined cost saving of $5.5 million because CNG costs about 50% less than diesel
▪ Ensure access to an American-made fuel source with an abundant 100-year supply, diminishing Greater Grand Rapids reliance on foreign oil.

 

[x99]

On 7/14/2017 at 2:41 PM, organsnyder said:

Looks like The Rapid is going to be migrating to CNG:

https://www.facebook.com/events/207713293089847

It does save money over the long haul, so long as the cost differential per BTU of energy keeps up.  It's a historically anomalous situation that so far has owed itself to the stunning productivity of fracking and the difficulty of storing and transporting the excess natural gas byproduct. Beyond pricing, the benefits aren't significant, if they exist at all.  I assume they are probably using a false metric of comparing the new CNG buses to their old diesel buses instead of new diesel buses.  Most studies indicate that new clean diesel vs. CNG is basically a wash from perspectives outside of cost.  So hope the gas stays cheap.  

 

[ChevalierNoir]

On 7/14/2017 at 2:41 PM, organsnyder said:

Looks like The Rapid is going to be migrating to CNG:

https://www.facebook.com/events/207713293089847

 

They are building a CNG fueling station on Market next to the Waste-to-Energy plant. It looked like it's nearing completion when I drove by this morning. 

[JoeSchmo]

Since the beginning of the year I happened to notice theres about 10+ Rapid buses sitting in the back of the Grand Rapids Auto Auction lot in Hudsonville (visible from Chicago Dr).  I believe they were all the hybrid buses.  Were the hybrid buses a fail?

[VectorPrime]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmo said:

Since the beginning of the year I happened to notice theres about 10+ Rapid buses sitting in the back of the Grand Rapids Auto Auction lot in Hudsonville (visible from Chicago Dr).  I believe they were all the hybrid buses.  Were the hybrid buses a fail?

No, the buses there are just regular old diesels that have long outlive their useful life.

But yes the hybrids themselves were a failure in the sense that at best they only got about a mile more to the gallon than the regular buses. In fact, (excluding the Silver Line) there are only the five hybrids that were purchased in 2007 in the fleet. Every bus purchased between then and the CNG order have been diesel-powered.

Edited July 17, 2017 by VectorPrime

[GRDadof3]

21 hours ago, VectorPrime said:

No, the buses there are just regular old diesels that have long outlive their useful life.

But yes the hybrids themselves were a failure in the sense that at best they only got about a mile more to the gallon than the regular buses. In fact, (excluding the Silver Line) there are only the five hybrids that were purchased in 2007 in the fleet. Every bus purchased between then and the CNG order have been diesel-powered.

Those hybrids are expensive too. I seem to remember the 2007 purchase being on a city agenda and they were a half $1 Million a piece? 

I don't want to sound like a member of the taxpayer alliance but 1 mpg more for more than double the price seemed un-scientific. 

[MJLO]

1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

Those hybrids are expensive too. I seem to remember the 2007 purchase being on a city agenda and they were a half $1 Million a piece? 

I don't want to sound like a member of the taxpayer alliance but 1 mpg more for more than double the price seemed un-scientific. 

You don't sound like a member of the taxpayer alliance.  You are using facts and math you sound like @x99 (That is when he's not being the Grumpy Cat of all things architecture)

[scottythe1nonly]

$1million for a hybrid diesel bus!  Is that correct?  I think the cost of a fully electric BYD bus (no diesel) with a 150 mile range is half that.  

Edited July 18, 2017 by scottythe1nonly

[GRDadof3]

4 hours ago, scottythe1nonly said:

$1million for a hybrid diesel bus!  Is that correct?  I think the cost of a fully electric BYD bus (no diesel) with a 150 mile range is half that.  

$ 1/2 Million, a little more than $500,000 (back then).  I wrote it as half $1 Million so it may have been confusing. Vs. about $200,000 for a standard diesel bus. 

[WMrapids]

6 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

$ 1/2 Million, a little more than $500,000 (back then).  I wrote it as half $1 Million so it may have been confusing. Vs. about $200,000 for a standard diesel bus. 

Or about $1/5 million for a diesel bus 

[scottythe1nonly]

FYR the claimed fuel savings for the new BYD all electric buses is about $200k vs Diesel.   The cost of batteries continues to come down.  It won't be long before the cost to own/operate electric buses will be competitive with diesel.   

Electric buses have a lot nicer ride.  They accelerate faster, smoother from stops.  Obviously cleaner and quieter.  It will be interesting in the next few years to see them replacing oil burners

[GRDadof3]

7 hours ago, WMrapids said:

Or about $1/5 million for a diesel bus 

[x99]

On 7/19/2017 at 9:35 AM, scottythe1nonly said:

FYR the claimed fuel savings for the new BYD all electric buses is about $200k vs Diesel.   The cost of batteries continues to come down.  It won't be long before the cost to own/operate electric buses will be competitive with diesel.   

Electric buses have a lot nicer ride.  They accelerate faster, smoother from stops.  Obviously cleaner and quieter.  It will be interesting in the next few years to see them replacing oil burners

If they can get the battery technology there and bring the prices down, I think you are right.  There are a few studies to that effect floating around.  I have not read them in any detail so I'm not really qualified to comment, but I do wonder if putting in this CNG infrastructure and buying CNG buses was not a premature.  A bus spends an astonishing amount of time either not moving at all or stopping.  The average speed of most buses is something like 13MPH or worse.  That seems like a perfect application for battery power.  

[scottythe1nonly]

speaking of electric buses...  city of LA just bought 60 Electric buses from BYD.  

 

https://electrek.co/2017/07/27/los-angeles-byd-all-electric-buses/

[MJLO]

http://mdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Viewer/index.html?appid=18a4b2f2ba3b4e079e935f8835862c73

Traffic definitely busier on area roads.  131 now carries over 100,000 cars daily between 44th st and the I-96 split.  US-31 in Grand Haven is still the busiest stretch of Rd in 280k person Ottawa County. I find that a shame since it's not at all designed to handle that volume compared to roads that are less traveled. 

[arcturus]

Cool map.  I hit the downtown YMCA around 4 weekdays by heading NB on 131 and have noticed a considerable increase in traffic and congestion in just a few years.  Just do a Google traffic map around that time and watch the red line grow.

[Raildude's dad]

My daughter graduated from Mich Tech in 2005. She was able to get an engineering job here in in GR.(Civil). She was the only one of her friends at Tech that got a job in MI. She was the last engineer hired in their GR office until 2016. She drives I-96 first from Alpine to Cascade and then I-196 Fuller to I-96. She could see the traffic drop off as the economy here worsened. The "rush hour" was much less. Now it has been recovering and the "rush Hour" increasing. We both joke that GR doesn't have anything close to a rush hour. More like a "rush 15 minutes". Try Chicago or Toronto if you want to see rush hour traffic.

[GRDadof3]

On 7/29/2017 at 7:37 AM, MJLO said:

http://mdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Viewer/index.html?appid=18a4b2f2ba3b4e079e935f8835862c73

Traffic definitely busier on area roads.  131 now carries over 100,000 cars daily between 44th st and the I-96 split.  US-31 in Grand Haven is still the busiest stretch of Rd in 280k person Ottawa County. I find that a shame since it's not at all designed to handle that volume compared to roads that are less traveled. 

Wow, I can't believe the increases. I mean I CAN but yikes. And I still think the East Beltline from i96 to Knapp is being undercounted. There's no way that it's similar to lake michigan drive west of the grand river. No.fuckin. way.

 

 

[organsnyder]

7 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Wow, I can't believe the increases. I mean I CAN but yikes. And I still think the East Beltline from i96 to Knapp is being undercounted. There's no way that it's similar to lake michigan drive west of the grand river. No.fudgein. way.

I try to avoid the East Beltline during rush minute, but it seems to me that a lot of the backup is due to a couple of choke points (especially the I-96 interchange). Given that Lake Michigan Drive is much more free-flowing, the traffic counts wouldn't surprise me (they're tracking how many cars get through in an hour—not how many cars are on the road at a particular instant).

[GRDadof3]

49 minutes ago, organsnyder said:

I try to avoid the East Beltline during rush minute, but it seems to me that a lot of the backup is due to a couple of choke points (especially the I-96 interchange). Given that Lake Michigan Drive is much more free-flowing, the traffic counts wouldn't surprise me (they're tracking how many cars get through in an hour—not how many cars are on the road at a particular instant).

Actually those maps show how many cars go through per day, not per hour.  But there's way more commuters and population going through the East Beltline corridor North of I-96 than there is West of the Grand River on LMD. Even if you take into account GVSU students.