Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[joeDowntown]

So is a copy or did they move the sculpture here? Seems to be the same artist.

Joe

Wow I am really upset to learn about this. A friend on Flickr told me that he saw a Journey Home sculpture in Birmingham Michigan. (Just North of Detroit.) I did a search and found it on the cities website: http://www.ci.birmingham.mi.us/index.aspx?page=1379

This is totally wrong!

~John

[John E]

It's a copy as my friend saw it Thursday.

I don't know how Dennis Oppennheim can get away with this. How could he even come for the dedication when he had one just like it in Birmingham already.

~John

[RegalTDP]

Wow, that is disappointing. We paid over $450,000 for a copy of another sculpture? The least we should have gotten for our investment is some original work.

If you look on the artist's website you'll see The Journey Home is a variation of his 2002 sculpture Bus Home, which stands in front of Pacific View Mall in Ventura, CA. It doesn't look as sleek, but on the other hand it's designed to function as a bus shelter.

Edited July 19, 2009 by RegalTDP

[GRDadof3]

It's a copy as my friend saw it Thursday.

I don't know how Dennis Oppennheim can get away with this. How could he even come for the dedication when he had one just like it in Birmingham already.

~John

It looks similar, but it doesn't look the same. A lot of artists do variations on the same theme.

[joeDowntown]

While it seems odd for a sculpture this size, there isn't only one "The Thinker", there are multiple copies. I don't know how they are billing this one, but some of the most famous artists ever have done it before.

Joe

It's a copy as my friend saw it Thursday.

I don't know how Dennis Oppennheim can get away with this. How could he even come for the dedication when he had one just like it in Birmingham already.

~John

[gvsusean]

It looks similar, but it doesn't look the same. A lot of artists do variations on the same theme.

isnt the name the same for both? they look mighty similar to me...

[Rizzo]

I'm probably in the minority here, but art is the last thing public transit needs to 'invest' in. Regardless, if the work is a duplicate or not.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Rizzo

[John E]

I'm probably in the minority here, but art is the last thing public transit needs to 'invest' in. Regardless, if the work is a duplicate or not.

Well I think that is irrelevant to the issue, but I think it was a matter of, use the money or lose it. I believe the Central Station went under budget and had the money left over so they wanted to use it for an extra improvement. The art sculpture is an improvement, but I think we got ripped off by Mr. Oppenheim.

~John

[GRDadof3]

isnt the name the same for both? they look mighty similar to me...

I actually think this is the third piece he has done called "Journey Home." I haven't actually looked at the contract between Oppenheim and The Rapid, but he's an artist, he built it from scratch, he charged them for it, the Rapid has a new sculpture.

Much ado about nothing, IMO.

[Rizzo]

Well I think that is irrelevant to the issue, but I think it was a matter of, use the money or lose it. I believe the Central Station went under budget and had the money left over so they wanted to use it for an extra improvement. The art sculpture is an improvement, but I think we got ripped off by Mr. Oppenheim.

~John

This art piece improve transportation? Maybe it could improve boardings during ArtPrize. Have people ride transit to the art piece. Too bad The Rapid or DASH can't work in concert with ArtPrize and look at what art works are on routes. Then draw up a map and pass it out downtown and near DASH lots.

I think I'll shoot some email.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Rizzo

[Yankee Fan]

I don't know much about this proposal (looks like it has been in the works for a couple of years) but this is pretty cool. I know that there are some who would look at this and think that we should focus on more localized things, first. However, after reading the article, going to this company's website, and learning about what this could do, I really like this.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ind...ail_from_g.html

[Rizzo]

Well, if investors want to -- go right ahead. I have my doubts, though. I'd like to know who the drops are in this 2$ billion dollar pool. Take this propensity and apply it to concepts that are off the shelf and ready to go for markets that will drive ridership potential.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

I don't know much about this proposal (looks like it has been in the works for a couple of years) but this is pretty cool. I know that there are some who would look at this and think that we should focus on more localized things, first. However, after reading the article, going to this company's website, and learning about what this could do, I really like this.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ind...ail_from_g.html

I wish someone would stick a fork in this silly idea.

[sonic]

Not sure this is the right forum for this but... I was thinking about the recent initiatives to bring roundabouts to Michigan and Grand Rapids. It occurred to me that one place that could benefit greatly from roundabouts is the East Beltline. All of those Michigan lefts are unnecessary stops. It would be a lot easier to convert some of those intersections to roundabouts too, where there is much more space to do it than say, in an urban area. Just a thought...

[John E]

Not sure this is the right forum for this but... I was thinking about the recent initiatives to bring roundabouts to Michigan and Grand Rapids. It occurred to me that one place that could benefit greatly from roundabouts is the East Beltline. All of those Michigan lefts are unnecessary stops. It would be a lot easier to convert some of those intersections to roundabouts too, where there is much more space to do it than say, in an urban area. Just a thought...

We do have roundabouts here. Have you seen this thread? http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/Wealthy-...-Ci-t49990.html

~John

[Allison Slater]

I've seen the East Beltline mentioned several times, but as far as I can remember, roundabouts were shown efficient only at lower-traffic intersections. I really don't think a roundabout anywhere on the East Beltline would be a good idea.

[d8alterego]

Even with the talk about the Hyrail, a more plausible goal is looking more and more real: high speed rail. I am very happy that Michigan and the Midwestern states are not lagging on this effort and are infact in the lead. Now if we could get GR connected to this system eventually, that would be awesome.

[jbr12]

^^^ Here's a follow up...

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/07...-rail-pact.html

High-speed rail picks up speed in Midwest

An agreement signed today seeking to fast-track high-speed passenger rail projects in the Midwest has three powerful engines pulling in its favor: the Obama administration, the clout of congressional delegations from eight states and the support of the nation's freight railroads.

Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio, Wisconsin and the City of Chicago entered into a memorandum of understanding that commits the governments to coordinate plans to develop 110-mile-per-hour rail corridors across the Midwest.

At Monday's ceremony, the pact was signed by five governors and Mayor Richard Daley. They all attended a summit in Chicago aimed at laying the groundwork to compete for the largest possible share of $8 billion the Obama administration has allocated for high-speed rail. Three other governors signed the documents earlier.

[sonic]

John, I know we have roundabouts that's why I mentioned the Beltline.

In Britain there are roundabouts on many primary and secondary roads like the Beltline. Such roundabouts are much larger than those on Wealthy, of course, to accommodate the higher volume traffic and higher speeds.

to get back to the topic. I agree with Grdad, the GR-Detroit hydrogen rail thing sounds ridiculous.

[Yankee Fan]

QUOTE (Yankee Fan @ Jul 23 2009, 10:02 AM)

I don't know much about this proposal (looks like it has been in the works for a couple of years) but this is pretty cool. I know that there are some who would look at this and think that we should focus on more localized things, first. However, after reading the article, going to this company's website, and learning about what this could do, I really like this.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ind...ail_from_g.html

I wish someone would stick a fork in this silly idea.

Why? What makes this idea silly? What is it that I am missing?

Edited July 28, 2009 by Yankee Fan

[organsnyder]

Why? What makes this idea silly? What is it that I am missing?

I can't speak definitively for GRDad, but a lot of the opposition (or at least lack of enthusiasm) I've heard - and share - is because it sounds like a big pipe dream. It also sounds a lot like a classic episode of The Simpsons.

I don't think that the promoter of the project is trying to bilk us out of our money - he's trying to raise venture capital from private investors (whether they'll get a return on their investment is their concern). However, I won't get excited about it until shovels (non-golden) send dirt flying.

[organsnyder]

I just went to Interstate Traveler's web site (the "Hydrogen Super Highway" company) and came away far from impressed. First of all, a company that has supposedly secured funding (the news article says they have it secured) - even if they had a small fraction of the funding needed - could design a web site that looks better than the one they have now, which reminds me of a late-1990's Geocities personal home page.

Also, the technology is hardly explained well. First of all, why hydrogen? According to their web site, they'll use solar panels to produce the hydrogen, which I assume will then be transported to the cars and used for fuel. Since it's a brand-new, restricted-access, proprietary rail system, why not electrify the rail and get rid of the hydrogen (and its expense and inefficiencies) entirely? To me, it sounds like the hydrogen part is a buzz-word to get attention rather than a plan based on scientific research.

[RegalTDP]

John, I know we have roundabouts that's why I mentioned the Beltline.

In Britain there are roundabouts on many primary and secondary roads like the Beltline. Such roundabouts are much larger than those on Wealthy, of course, to accommodate the higher volume traffic and higher speeds.

to get back to the topic. I agree with Grdad, the GR-Detroit hydrogen rail thing sounds ridiculous.

Roundabouts on major corridors like like East Beltline only make sense if there's an intersection with another major corridor, and there aren't really any out there. Most of the streets crossing it, like Fulton or Leonard or Knapp, have pretty light traffic, and most of the people crossing those intersections aren't making turns (that's why they use Michigan Lefts - they keep traffic moving straight in respective directions).

On the other hand, East Beltline/28th Street is a pretty big intersection, and they COULD put a roundabout there, but the double left-turn lane configuration they have now is working just fine, IMO. 28th Street does get backed up sometimes, but not to a point where it's worth tearing up the ground.

Why? What makes this idea silly? What is it that I am missing?

Check out the mid-June posts in this thread... We discussed the HYRAIL idea in more detail. The way I see it, any money spent on these tracks would be much better spent investing in high-speed rail. But that's just me.

Speaking of which, I think GR should lobby long and hard to the point of obnoxiousness towards inclusion in any high-speed rail projects that pop up in the midwest. Since we're kind of out of the way, it'll be tough, but I think GR should do everything it can not to be left out of this.

Edited July 29, 2009 by RegalTDP

[droonus2000]

I would like to see the High Speed Rail go from Detroit though Lansing to GR then down to K-Zoo. I think the D to K-zoo idea is because there is a current line built, but it would make more sense to connect the 2 biggest cites in the state to it's capital and to other major cities, What I don't get is the spur up to Pontiac. but this is a idea for right now, i'm sure it will change significantly if/before its built.

[Rizzo]

I just went to Interstate Traveler's web site (the "Hydrogen Super Highway" company) and came away far from impressed. First of all, a company that has supposedly secured funding (the news article says they have it secured) - even if they had a small fraction of the funding needed - could design a web site that looks better than the one they have now, which reminds me of a late-1990's Geocities personal home page.

Also, the technology is hardly explained well. First of all, why hydrogen? According to their web site, they'll use solar panels to produce the hydrogen, which I assume will then be transported to the cars and used for fuel. Since it's a brand-new, restricted-access, proprietary rail system, why not electrify the rail and get rid of the hydrogen (and its expense and inefficiencies) entirely? To me, it sounds like the hydrogen part is a buzz-word to get attention rather than a plan based on scientific research.

No way do they have 2$ billion. I bet they haven't secured capital, but good faith papers. All of the 2$ billion or nearly all of it is probably in paper. The money would be delivered once the ROW is secured. Hence the congressional action. Kind of like the Faust Mystery Development of Interstate Transportation Systems.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Rizzo