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Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids


GRDadof3

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In terms of perception, busses are still running on gasoline, spewing diesel fumes, etc.

I'm not saying streetcars don't have that, but people imagine trains as something that pollute less.

Even your attached video includes the guy saying "if money was no object, all things being equal, I would chosen rail."

Don't get me wrong, I understand BRT and what it could bring, but at the end of the day I also understand why people struggle to see the difference between BRT and regular buses.

Other than looking cooler than a bus and costing more, I can't see any real advantage of either BRT, streetcars or light rail on the routes where it has been proposed (either on the route on this new video or the former Silverline proposal.) A bus system with frequent stops and a frequent schedule of say a bus every five minutes would be functionally superior and probably much cheaper than any of the proposals. A BRT that doesn't stop within a block of where you are going and comes relatively less frequently isn't an improvement over a bus even if the BRT is a few minutes faster once you're on it.

Overstated perhaps but maybe here is the real reason we want something other than a good bus system:

Stuff White People Like #147: Public Transportation That Is Not a Bus -

“… White people all support the idea of public transportation and will be happy to tell you about how the subways and streetcars/trams have helped to energize cities like Chicago and Portland. They will tell you all about the energy and cost savigns of having people abandon their cars for public transportation and how they hope that one day they can live in a city where they will be car-free.

At this point, you are probably thinking about the massive number of buses that serve your city and how you have never seen a white person riding them. To a white person a bus is essentially a giant minivan that continually stops to pick up progressively smellier people. You should never, ever point this out to a white person. It will make them recognize that they might not love public transportation as much as they thought, and then they will feel sad.”

From the book - Stuff White People Like: A Definitive Guide to the Unique Taste of Millions by Christian Lander

Here’s a link to a lot of the other stuff white people like:

whitepeoplelink

Being a white person though, I voted for the Silverline the last time. Before someone remarks that they see plenty of white people on buses, the "white persons" the book is referring is the subgroup of hip educated urban white people that kind of resembles most of the people that post here on urbanplanet.

Edited by walker
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Leave your white trash stories within your own mind. I hate people throwing out race like it matters. The color of a person's skin has NOTHING to do with their intelligence or the type of person they are.

BRT and Steetcars are more comfortable and easier to access. The big deal with them is the stations that bring development. With a good park and ride system, many people will use them to get to and from work.

BRT's are less expensive and easier to maintain the vehicles. Another advantage is that BRT's are able to detour around accidents, fallen trees, parades or what have you.

~John

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I really like the preferred scenario except for the modern streetcars. I'm not hip to laying down tracks when BRT doesn't require them along with the additional construction and maintenance costs.

I think the express service using freeways could be a big hit.

I'm most excited about the expanded hours and frequency extensions. Having 30 minute frequency on evening and weekend would be a huge help.

I would also like to see service to Millennium Park.

~John

Not to start a fight, but I just don't see someone who is a strong supporter of the tea party endorsing public transit. In the minds of the tea party, this would not be considered an essential service provided by our tax dollars, or is it?

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I really like the preferred scenario except for the modern streetcars. I'm not hip to laying down tracks when BRT doesn't require them along with the additional construction and maintenance costs.

I think the express service using freeways could be a big hit.

I'm most excited about the expanded hours and frequency extensions. Having 30 minute frequency on evening and weekend would be a huge help.

I would also like to see service to Millennium Park.

~John

Not to start a fight, but I just don't see someone who is a strong supporter of the tea party endorsing public transit. In the minds of the tea party, this would not be considered an essential service provided by our tax dollars, or is it?

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Not to start a fight, but I just don't see someone who is a strong supporter of the tea party endorsing public transit. In the minds of the tea party, this would not be considered an essential service provided by our tax dollars, or is it?

Public Transportation is a benifit for the community. For some it is an essential service. I have encouraged The Rapid to seek donation funding for improvements. My outlook on public transportation may differ from other Tea Party People but we don't all agree on everything. If public transportation goes against the State or U.S. Constitutions, please let me know.

~John

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Leave your white trash stories within your own mind. I hate people throwing out race like it matters. The color of a person's skin has NOTHING to do with their intelligence or the type of person they are.

BRT and Steetcars are more comfortable and easier to access. The big deal with them is the stations that bring development. With a good park and ride system, many people will use them to get to and from work.

BRT's are less expensive and easier to maintain the vehicles. Another advantage is that BRT's are able to detour around accidents, fallen trees, parades or what have you.

~John

I don't think there's been any proven redevelopment of any scale around BRT stations. If you find anything, please post a link.

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I don't think there's been any proven redevelopment of any scale around BRT stations. If you find anything, please post a link.

This Cleveland BRT Video shows development around the stations:

~John

Edited by John E
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Need to question what spurred that redevelopment, though. We could run a BRT down Michigan if we wanted to, and spread pictures of inevitable future development if we wanted to. Show people the development along our new BRT line. Doesn't mean the BRT was the cause. This can also apply to rail, too. I love these ideas, but I do question how much development results from the projects themselves.

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Need to question what spurred that redevelopment, though. We could run a BRT down Michigan if we wanted to, and spread pictures of inevitable future development if we wanted to. Show people the development along our new BRT line. Doesn't mean the BRT was the cause. This can also apply to rail, too. I love these ideas, but I do question how much development results from the projects themselves.

Exactly, I was just going to say the same thing. The redevelopment in that video is purely anecdotal.

To invest in any BRT system, it needs to solve some real issues. Redevelopment of an area is not a problem being solved, only a spinoff benefit.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 3 months later...
  • 4 months later...

MLive editorial supporting the May 3rd millage

So... Exactly this time 2 years ago, this thread was adding multiple pages per day to accommodate the furious posting and heated discussions over the 2009 proposal.

This year it's completely silent. What happened? Are we all tuckered out from last time?

I'm not in town to talk to people, let alone vote, this go-around... Just wondering, what's everyone else's sense of the landscape?

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MLive editorial supporting the May 3rd millage

So... Exactly this time 2 years ago, this thread was adding multiple pages per day to accommodate the furious posting and heated discussions over the 2009 proposal.

This year it's completely silent. What happened? Are we all tuckered out from last time?

I'm not in town to talk to people, let alone vote, this go-around... Just wondering, what's everyone else's sense of the landscape?

It's going better. This time the pro forces have embraced social media, and have "joined" the opposition's FB page in droves. https://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=71354945753 Interesting debates taking place there, and in the MLive comments.

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  • 3 months later...

Can't remember what thread or when, but someone mentioned a Ferris Stateshuttle between downtown GR and Big Rapids being in the works. Ferris' website has updated info; plus here's an MLive update.

University leaders announced Wednesday that through a partnership with The Rapid, buses will run Monday through Friday during the fall and spring semesters when classes are scheduled, from 6:25 a.m. until 9:05 p.m. and several runs in between.

Tickets will cost $8 each way, or riders can purchase a shuttle bus card that allows unlimited use for $700 per semester.

The bus route originates at The Rapid’s central station, located at 250 Grandville Ave. SW. with one scheduled stop the Meijer store in Cedar Springs, located at 3700 17 Mile Road.

University leaders said the shuttle is open to anyone, it is intended for current and prospective Ferris students who live in Kent County and take classes on the Big Rapids campus.

Open to anyone? Stops downtown and Cedar Springs? It's almost as if the Rapid is getting a northward commuter line, courtesy of Ferris! thumbsup.gif

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  • 4 weeks later...

Considered digging up a couple of old threads (like this one: http://www.urbanplan...age__hl__amtrak, or check out this little GRDadof3 sketch from 2005: http://www.urbanplan...post__p__249935), but figured this might fit best here.

Went to the initial public meeting for the new Amtrak station last night. Thought you people might like to see some of crappy blackberry photos of the design concept renderings. :) Progressive AE and Bergmann Associates have been contracted by ITP to do design the project and talked a lot about gathering experts on rail. I believe that most design/engineering/consulting firms are required to be experts at gathering experts, so this was no surprise. The Rapid representative there said the construction general contractor RFP is out and they hope to hire someone at the December 8th ITP board meeting.

The planned passenger boarding area would be 400 ft long, just south of Wealthy. The new deck would be built to not exclude the possibility of accommodating two trains at once, but initially, only the east one will be built. There was mention that Amtrak is moving toward double decker cars and the Pere Marquette may soon have them as well, so it would accommodate the increasing demand in the same number of cars.

There was talk about the problem of the train having to back out for every trip, but this wasn't really addressed by the presenters. I don't know enough to say how much of an issue this really is.

Raildudesdad was there as well, so maybe he can chime in more.

Here are the crappy blackberry photos:

This shows where the line would cross under 131, near Buchanan and Prospect. This intersection would have the largest impact to traffic during construction. Construction is not anticipated to block traffic on Century Dr. near the station.

6101462553_8092986f1a_b.jpg

Concept is for a transparent, glass enclosed conditioned passenger waiting area. The transparency would help alleviate safety concerns (CPTED at work) and the waiting area would be larger than the current space in the station on Wealthy.

6102010342_808098a24e_b.jpg

The aquamarine "pool" looking things are actually envisioned as "pocket parks" for trees and native plantings.

6101462701_931ff11a2e_b.jpg

6102011466_8583e7e94f_b.jpg

Here you can see the rough concept for a signature tower that would reach up and be visible from afar, in keeping with the historic train station motif. The details of the tower aren't really firm, and I could see it being one of the things getting value-engineered out. That could be a good thing in some people's minds. I think it could be cool, if done right.

6101463793_e2c2472828_b.jpg

6101463879_b5f2205159_b.jpg

Edited by fotoman311
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That tower actually reminds me of the old Greyhound station at Fulton and Market I think... didn't that have a similar-looking sign tower on it?

The old Greyhound station did have a similar tower, maybe not a tall?

It appears that it would be a hike disembarking the back of the train to the Central Station, especially in a Michigan winter. It's too bad they could have not worked this to have one station for train, city bus, and Greyhound. I wonder what the sf diffirence is between the current train station house, and the one proposed?

Edited by mpchicago
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The old Greyhound station did have a similar tower, maybe not a tall?

It appears that it would be a hike disembarking the back of the train to the Central Station, especially in a Michigan winter. It's too bad they could have not worked this to have one station for train, city bus, and Greyhound. I wonder what the sf diffirence is between the current train station house, and the one proposed?

How many people though are going to switch modes of transport like that? This is Grand Rapids after all, where most people will probably be dropped off or park at the train station. I say most, as there will be some exceptions.

I think it looks pretty cool. Way better than I had imagined based on the small site plan that was shown a while back. Plus to see the Amtrak trains from the highway will add a touch of big city feel. A tower of some sort would be cool.

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The old Greyhound station did have a similar tower, maybe not a tall?

It appears that it would be a hike disembarking the back of the train to the Central Station, especially in a Michigan winter. It's too bad they could have not worked this to have one station for train, city bus, and Greyhound. I wonder what the sf diffirence is between the current train station house, and the one proposed?

I know there was a better photo in a thread here somewhere, but I was able to find this:

a301june12.JPG

There's some definite differences, but it still feels a bit reminiscent in a trnsportation-related way. And I agree, the trains being seen from the highway will be great.

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Here's a link to a another photo of the old Greyhound Station. http://cdm15416.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p15416coll4&CISOPTR=309&CISOBOX=1&REC=6

I don't know where to start on this project. The Rapid Central Terminal should have been between US 131 and Seward, between Lake Michigan and Bridge. Step off the bus and onto the Dash Bus. Right next to the GVSU campus, Amtrak goes right by there on the way to and from it's overnight at Ann Street, pull right thru , no back up moves. As GRD3 and a few others know, the corridor best suited for commuter rail is that track as well as Grand Elk to the south.

Comments on the proposed station, every train arriving and leaving must back up. EB train from Chitown has to pull past the switch to the depot and back in to the end of the track. Int he morning, the train needs to back out in order for the engineer to be in the correct position to "drive" the engine to Chitown. Every time / anytime the train backs up, the conductor must be "in the back" to watch. That means he cannot be dealing with passenger needs. Inbound, that means he's at the rear of the train and not preparing to unload passengers. With the current station, its pull thru with the current engine on one end and a cab car on the other end.

The proposed station is very poor for commuter rail Again every last train using it must back in or back out. The most efficient commuter operations are pull thru.

The station is located south of Wealthy and the platform is 400 feet long. That's a long walk to the Central Station. Certainly not "cross platform" to a bus. If it's not going to offer true multi modal, why locate it so it has inefficient operating characteristics every day of the year?.

They show two trains on 2 tracks. Why 2 trains would leave at the same time does not make sense to me. Even if one went to kazoo and the other to Chitown, why wouldn't they be staggered departures / arrivals to give more travel opportunity?

Amtrak is currently; using "double deckers" called Superliners in the winter months since the single level cars have "issues" in Michigan winters.

The Rapid is currently looking for a "Construction Manager" not a contractor to build the facility. There were representatives of several of those firms in the audience.

.

Last track work is estimated to cost $3.8 Million, the station, $800,000. I think the spikes will be gold plated.

The train left the station a long time ago on this project, but it left w/o an engineer or conductor.

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i don't know how developed this project is, but those renderings are pretty dismal; more thought went into the representation of the trains than anything else and those are a given. what about some signage, schedule, maps, etc. along the platform as some kind of digital/ interactive interface. the tower is a nice idea, but executed very poorly. i think the one thing architecture has the power to do, especially in this situation, is persuade people to use the station. it will become a novelty at first and if designed correctly will have the opportunity to increase ongoing ridership & attract positive attention, not only from inside GR but elsewhere as well.

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i don't know how developed this project is, but those renderings are pretty dismal; more thought went into the representation of the trains than anything else and those are a given. what about some signage, schedule, maps, etc. along the platform as some kind of digital/ interactive interface. the tower is a nice idea, but executed very poorly. i think the one thing architecture has the power to do, especially in this situation, is persuade people to use the station. it will become a novelty at first and if designed correctly will have the opportunity to increase ongoing ridership & attract positive attention, not only from inside GR but elsewhere as well.

I think what will get more people to ride Amtrak is reliability and not being stuck in Holland for 18 hours on a winters day, and told not to leave the train.

Here's a link to a another photo of the old Greyhound Station. http://cdm15416.cont...CISOBOX=1&REC=6

I don't know where to start on this project. The Rapid Central Terminal should have been between US 131 and Seward, between Lake Michigan and Bridge. Step off the bus and onto the Dash Bus. Right next to the GVSU campus, Amtrak goes right by there on the way to and from it's overnight at Ann Street, pull right thru , no back up moves. As GRD3 and a few others know, the corridor best suited for commuter rail is that track as well as Grand Elk to the south.

Comments on the proposed station, every train arriving and leaving must back up. EB train from Chitown has to pull past the switch to the depot and back in to the end of the track. Int he morning, the train needs to back out in order for the engineer to be in the correct position to "drive" the engine to Chitown. Every time / anytime the train backs up, the conductor must be "in the back" to watch. That means he cannot be dealing with passenger needs. Inbound, that means he's at the rear of the train and not preparing to unload passengers. With the current station, its pull thru with the current engine on one end and a cab car on the other end.

The proposed station is very poor for commuter rail Again every last train using it must back in or back out. The most efficient commuter operations are pull thru.

The station is located south of Wealthy and the platform is 400 feet long. That's a long walk to the Central Station. Certainly not "cross platform" to a bus. If it's not going to offer true multi modal, why locate it so it has inefficient operating characteristics every day of the year?.

They show two trains on 2 tracks. Why 2 trains would leave at the same time does not make sense to me. Even if one went to kazoo and the other to Chitown, why wouldn't they be staggered departures / arrivals to give more travel opportunity?

Amtrak is currently; using "double deckers" called Superliners in the winter months since the single level cars have "issues" in Michigan winters.

The Rapid is currently looking for a "Construction Manager" not a contractor to build the facility. There were representatives of several of those firms in the audience.

.

Last track work is estimated to cost $3.8 Million, the station, $800,000. I think the spikes will be gold plated.

The train left the station a long time ago on this project, but it left w/o an engineer or conductor.

Call me a newb, but all the big train stations in Chicago (Millennium Park, Ogilvie, Union Station) the Metra and Amtrak trains come in, stop, and then go back out in the opposite direction. How is that different than Amtrak doing the same at this new station?

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I think what will get more people to ride Amtrak is reliability and not being stuck in Holland for 18 hours on a winters day, and told not to leave the train.

Call me a newb, but all the big train stations in Chicago (Millennium Park, Ogilvie, Union Station) the Metra and Amtrak trains come in, stop, and then go back out in the opposite direction. How is that different than Amtrak doing the same at this new station?

I’m not familiar with the Millennium or Ogilvie stations but I’m very familiar with Union Station. Every Amtrak and Metra train pulls directly into the station. The passengers are unloaded and the “road “crew gets off. A yard crew then backs the trains out of the station, gets the train serviced and then backs the trains into the station for loading. The “road” crew then pulls the loaded train out of the station. The trains do not reverse direction while loaded. The conductors of these trains are never protecting the backup move and not paying attention to the passengers.

I don’t have an issue with the proposed back up moves in and out of the proposed station EXCEPT for the fact the “experts’ (and I’m using the term very loosely”) are touting the new location as more efficient for Amtrak operations when it IS NOT. The current operation is very efficient for operations, pull up to the station, load or unload and go. As a guy that has experience as a passenger conductor, trust me, back up moves are time consuming.

What is even more time consuming on the Pere Marquette, has nothing to do with the station, and is not being addressed is creeping from the station to Ivanrest at 10 mph – the maximum speed allowed in the yard.

One last point, according to the presenters, Amtrak tickets will not be sold in the bus station. The “experts” comment was “different unions”. I couldn’t believe they said that. While it may be true, I would have used the phrase, “there currently are some contractual issues” and we are hoping Amtrak and the Rapid can resolve them. At least put an automated ticket machine in the bus station and educate the bus ticket sellers so they can answer basic questions.

Sorry about the font size, I did a copy and paste from a Worddocx and can't edit it:(

Edited by Raildudes dad
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I’m not familiar with the Millennium or Ogilvie stations but I’m very familiar with Union Station. Every Amtrak and Metra train pulls directly into the station. The passengers are unloaded and the “road “crew gets off. A yard crew then backs the trains out of the station, gets the train serviced and then backs the trains into the station for loading. The “road” crew then pulls the loaded train out of the station. The trains do not reverse direction while loaded. The conductors of these trains are never protecting the backup move and not paying attention to the passengers.

I don’t have an issue with the proposed back up moves in and out of the proposed station EXCEPT for the fact the “experts’ (and I’m using the term very loosely”) are touting the new location as more efficient for Amtrak operations when it IS NOT. The current operation is very efficient for operations, pull up to the station, load or unload and go. As a guy that has experience as a passenger conductor, trust me, back up moves are time consuming.

What is even more time consuming on the Pere Marquette, has nothing to do with the station, and is not being addressed is creeping from the station to Ivanrest at 10 mph – the maximum speed allowed in the yard.

One last point, according to the presenters, Amtrak tickets will not be sold in the bus station. The “experts” comment was “different unions”. I couldn’t believe they said that. While it may be true, I would have used the phrase, “there currently are some contractual issues” and we are hoping Amtrak and the Rapid can resolve them. At least put an automated ticket machine in the bus station and educate the bus ticket sellers so they can answer basic questions.

Sorry about the font size, I did a copy and paste from a Worddocx and can't edit it:(

Yeah, I guess the difference with Metra is that the trains drive forward and backward the whole length of the line. The first time I saw a Metra train going backward at 50+ mph I was like "WTF?!". :)

If you ask me, the move to this new station is probably more of an "image" move than anything. Packaging GR's transit system as all converging at one spot.

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