Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[DwntwnGeo]

Gary, I was also thinking they could put a station in Ada as well. That's where this line leads out to. Maybe even to Lowell. There are a lot of housing developments being built in Ada.

Small steps at first.... lol

The only question I have in the back of my mind is: If a tranist system gets buits for Medical Hill, does this screw up any of the Federal Funding packages (New Starts etc.). I thought one of the programs was more geared for cities that didn't already have a transit system. I could be wrong though.

[DwntwnGeo]

I noticed in the DDA Agenda that the ITP is requesting to exercise an option they hold on the DASH lot just South of the ITP station, hopefully it's to bring the new Amtrak station closer to reality.

GRDad, Do you have a picture of the lot being bought? I was wondering if it is the lot that is on the North side of Wealthy or if it is the lot on the South side or is it possible that those two lots are really one? They are both connecting under the Wealthy St bridge and both are now surface parking lots.

[FilmMaker]

FilmMaker, on GVMC's website under the transportatoin planning, it shows an email contact of [email protected]. Do you know if this is still the right person to contact to get involved or to send this idea to? They definitely should make a trip to Nashville to check this out, as I'm sure every mid-sized growing city in the country will be doing as well.

Snell appears to be one of a handful of Transportation Planners on the GVMC staff. The GVMC Transportation Director appears to be:

Abed Itani

Transportation Director

[email protected]

I don't have any real direct experience with this dept at GVMC, most of my work falls in line with Andy Bowman's Land Use responsibility.

Maybe one of the moderators here (hint hint) could send both Snell and Itani an email linking them to this thread?

[GRDadof3]

GRDad, Do you have a picture of the lot being bought? I was wondering if it is the lot that is on the North side of Wealthy or if it is the lot on the South side or is it possible that those two lots are really one? They are both connecting under the Wealthy St bridge and both are now surface parking lots.

This MAP shows the lot (labelled as R) going under Wealthy.

Here's an idea guys, I call it the North End Station. Bring the tracks around Belknap Park and back up along Division to the stretch of Ionia (that is a total waste of a street and may be vacated anyway). Then it could also serve as a station for future links North (Comstock Park, Rockford, CS). This would nicely tie in with Steve Faber's (bwindi25's) vision of Belknap Lookout Hill and Monroe North.

[DwntwnGeo]

This MAP shows the lot (labelled as R) going under Wealthy.

Thanks I think that section of property connects to the rail lines heading south. With this purchase, it sounds like they are setting some foundations for rail additions to the Central Garage....

[FilmMaker]

The Nashville system laid 30 miles of new track, built new bridges, new stations, added new crossing signals, and much more on an existing line for only $1 Million/mile. You can't beat that. The current track would have to be rebuilt I'm sure. I just wish there was a way to get around that Michigan Hill and into downtown, or at least close enough to put in a station with DASH busses to downtown. I can't see a giant locomotive going down the middle of the street. And new Siemens Light rail trains run $20 Million/apiece AND need overhead electrical lines.

Perhaps the Southern 131 corridor would be a better start?

I know the Michigan Hill is a pretty huge obstacle. It is really too bad there wasn't time to plan some sort of underground accommodation of light rail within the parking ramp being built. I don't know how this could have been excavated from the easterly direction but it is interesting to ponder at first blush.

My point here being that the rapid pace of construction in the core is thwarting our ability to plot mass transit around these large projects (which will be employing hundreds or thousands of people). It strikes me that we should be requesting that developers within the core include accommodation of future mass transit in their proposals - at the very least giving the community a brief pause within which to examine any mass transit opportunities or challenges.

The maps above are an example of how we're trying to retrofit solutions - versus planning solutions into the projects.

That being said, the Coldbrook work-around seems plausible. Interestingly, the Monroe North Business district has been muddling around the idea of requesting the removal of the tracks running down Bond Street that used to service the GR Press. Maybe this shouldn't happen too quickly. Heck, there's even still a tunnel under I196 near the Press bldg! Of course, a line running directly to health hill along Division would be even more convenient to that facility than the existing Bond Ave track, but... it's already there.... only problem is that none of these solutions affords us a continuous line running from the south all the way to the north.

Regarding the lot under Wealthy Street and its relevance to my comments above: it does seem to me that the Rapid Station really needs to serve as some sort of central hub to an area wide system. The challenge will be to somehow establish continuity running north-south and east-west. Without further study (I can't access REGIS well enough) it seems our existing convergences are in the following areas:

near north (somewhere around Belknap Park/Coldbrook/Leonard/Monroe)

near south (somewhere around Rapid Station or the switch yards around Hall Street)

near West (somewhere around the Market Street exit on I196)

Inside that circle, we may have to look at busses or other means to move people around inside the core (Dash, etc). Again. my original thoughts (and GRDad's thoughts) were around "park-and-ride" opportunities. The added benefit of uninterrupted travel across the metro area may need to be a secondary, future step in the process?

Don;t know where I'm going exactly with all this, but it all seems worthy of discussion...

Edited October 10, 2006 by FilmMaker

[gvsusean]

the first route should go from DT to GVSU Allendale, that bus route has to have the highest ridership of all routes

[FilmMaker]

The Nashville system laid 30 miles of new track, built new bridges, new stations, added new crossing signals, and much more on an existing line for only $1 Million/mile. You can't beat that. The current track would have to be rebuilt I'm sure. I just wish there was a way to get around that Michigan Hill and into downtown, or at least close enough to put in a station with DASH busses to downtown. I can't see a giant locomotive going down the middle of the street. And new Siemens Light rail trains run $20 Million/apiece AND need overhead electrical lines.

Perhaps the Southern 131 corridor would be a better start?

On the topic of cost, it seems reasonable to think that we could utilize mostly existing tracks and create a system of routes extending from the core in four directions for an average of approximately ten miles in each direction - for somewhere around the same kind of money (give or take?). As has been said, even if it was 25 percent more it would be waaaaay less than adding lanes to the expressway (let alone the cost of finding a place for all these cars to park downtown).

I'm thinking my initial plan (a few pages back) would amount to about this much effort. Recap: north to Whitecaps Stadium, south to M6, east to Belt Line (or maybe Ada?), west to Allendale/GVSU. Without plotting on a map, that seems to be about 30-40 miles total? Mostly on existing lines? And probably not requiring too many terminals along the way? (or at least not many expensive ones).

As I originally said and has been repeated several times: small steps. Maybe we simply build one or two of these lines and see what happens? We simply need to get the ball rolling before developers render the central core impenetrable by rail.

[GRDadof3]

Snell appears to be one of a handful of Transportation Planners on the GVMC staff. The GVMC Transportation Director appears to be:

Abed Itani

Transportation Director

[email protected]

I don't have any real direct experience with this dept at GVMC, most of my work falls in line with Andy Bowman's Land Use responsibility.

Maybe one of the moderators here (hint hint) could send both Snell and Itani an email linking them to this thread?

Done! If I didn't have a sick child at home right now, I'd suggest we all get together over a Barley Pop and hash around ideas.

I think you're right FilmMaker. I don't know if there is a way to link the Rapid station with the North end lines. There are just more and more obstacles in the way. A smaller station like Nashville's Riverfront station would probably suffice.

[FilmMaker]

Done! If I didn't have a sick child at home right now, I'd suggest we all get together over a Barley Pop and hash around ideas.

Not a bad idea, but I can't kibbutz tonight either - - I and my fellow Planning Commissioners in Plainfield have a meeting tonight where Spartan hopes to take their first baby step toward their (now infamously prematurely leaked to the media) request of a re-zone to allow a Family Fare at 7 Mile and Northland. Which means, of course, that I am definitely gonna need an adult beverage (or several) after tonight's meeting!! ... and I certainly do not want to get started here right now on what would be (at least for me) a potentially immense, off-topic diatribe on the whole issue of development along Northland... Suffice to say, tonight it would be so much more fun to ponder light rail instead!

Anyway, maybe we plot another time to gather in person and chat mass transit? Maybe we even give a few of the folks over at GVMC a heads-up and have them join us?

[CK1]

This MAP shows the lot (labelled as R) going under Wealthy.

Here's an idea guys, I call it the North End Station. Bring the tracks around Belknap Park and back up along Division to the stretch of Ionia (that is a total waste of a street and may be vacated anyway). Then it could also serve as a station for future links North (Comstock Park, Rockford, CS). This would nicely tie in with Steve Faber's (bwindi25's) vision of Belknap Lookout Hill and Monroe North.

Put that station just a block or two south at the post office building, or even integrated into that beautiful and very sadly vacant buidling on northwest corner of Michigan and Monroe. This station would than more easily serve Devos Place and Medical Hill. Also, by putting a station very close to the convention center, this would make land around stations on the line potentially more attractive to future hotel development, as convention patrons could leave their cars behind and just take the train downtown.

If only there was a way to get another station close to the Arena / corner of Division and Fulton without shredding half the buildings downtown...maybe this is where the bus system comes into play?? Get people close to downtown, and let the busses do the rest of the work!

[GRDadof3]

Not a bad idea, but I can't kibbutz tonight either - - I and my fellow Planning Commissioners in Plainfield have a meeting tonight where Spartan hopes to take their first baby step toward their (now infamously prematurely leaked to the media) request of a re-zone to allow a Family Fare at 7 Mile and Northland. Which means, of course, that I am definitely gonna need an adult beverage (or several) after tonight's meeting!! ... and I certainly do not want to get started here right now on what would be (at least for me) a potentially immense, off-topic diatribe on the whole issue of development along Northland... Suffice to say, tonight it would be so much more fun to ponder light rail instead!

Anyway, maybe we plot another time to gather in person and chat mass transit? Maybe we even give a few of the folks over at GVMC a heads-up and have them join us?

That would be a great idea! We'll see how this week goes and if they respond to my email.

CK1, I think the ITP station is pretty much as close as you can get on the South side. As you can see by the picture from Nashville (and other systems I've researched), they can easily work in tandem with busses.

[DwntwnGeo]

I think you're right FilmMaker. I don't know if there is a way to link the Rapid station with the North end lines. There are just more and more obstacles in the way. A smaller station like Nashville's Riverfront station would probably suffice.

GRDad and FilmMaker, The existing Norhtern Line along Seward that goes to Comstock Park area, looks like it crosses the Grand River by the Amtrak station and then continues under US131 and head south along the Eastern side of US131 towards Kalamazoo. If there are still tracks there and in tact, all Central Station would have to do is lay track on the new parcel they want to buy and connect were the tracks go under US131 and head south?

I wouldn't know where any East-West lines could enter Central Sation though. The western line could use the same bridge over the Grand River as the North-South line, but heading East from Central Station I am not sure about that one yet.

[CK1]

I wouldn't know where any East-West lines could enter Central Sation though. The western line could use the same bridge over the Grand River as the North-South line, but heading East from Central Station I am not sure about that one yet.

You'd have to go north along the tracks that run by GVSU and Ferris Coffee, up past American Seating, and somehow loop it over to where the tracks appear on GRDad's previously posted map. I doubt there is any way to go east otherwise (unless you bury the whole system).

[DwntwnGeo]

You'd have to go north along the tracks that run by GVSU and Ferris Coffee, up past American Seating, and somehow loop it over to where the tracks appear on GRDad's previously posted map. I doubt there is any way to go east otherwise (unless you bury the whole system).

You are right. The tracks that run along Seward intersect the tracks on GRDad's map where the old Lear/GM plant is by Ann St. This would complete an Eastern route, but you could almost have to circle the city before you would make it to Central Station. I agree, I would like a lot of the system to be underground, but cost would be a major issue

[GRDadof3]

That's why I think you almost have to have a couple of different stations, and possibly different modes of transport feeding each. Do they necessarily all have to meet? Is there a great need for a lot of people to go from the South side to the North side, or vice versa?

[Rizzo]

I agree it would be something to look into. As Rizzo mentioned he thought/heard the tracks were passenger ready, but how much does it cost to make tracks passenger ready? It would be a lot cheaper than laying new track, right? I hope someone from the Medical Hill is reading this topic also.

A couple weeks ago I contacted Grand Rapids Eastern Railroad, the operators for the railway along E. Fulton - 196 into downtown. My understanding is that the rail isnt sufficient, that dosen't mean it can't happen. I did talk to some professionals that say the lines can be upgraded cheap -- I speak relatively. I can't talk for CSXT and their lines. We wouldn't really need to lay expensive main-line track, but more of upgrades.

The Nashville system laid 30 miles of new track, built new bridges, new stations, added new crossing signals, and much more on an existing line for only $1 Million/mile. You can't beat that. The current track would have to be rebuilt I'm sure. I just wish there was a way to get around that Michigan Hill and into downtown, or at least close enough to put in a station with DASH busses to downtown. I can't see a giant locomotive going down the middle of the street. And new Siemens Light rail trains run $20 Million/apiece AND need overhead electrical lines.

Perhaps the Southern 131 corridor would be a better start?

I was told to look at Nashville by some rail professionals. On further inspection it looks great and posses a question to ask ourselves if this is a model to look at. Interesting to note that the Metra Cars from Chicago were purchased for just one dollar. I believe also that some of their backup locos are on loan from one of Tennessee's historical railway museums.

There's some hundred thousand cars on 131 every 24 hours I'd wonder how many of those cars are SOVs and that are commuting from the southern 'burbs. I'd also like to know how many of those commute to downtown or near downtown. Just observing the flow of traffic in and out of the area that the greatest potential would come in direct links with the the southern and northern suburbs.

Not a bad idea, but I can't kibbutz tonight either - - I and my fellow Planning Commissioners in Plainfield have a meeting tonight where Spartan hopes to take their first baby step toward their (now infamously prematurely leaked to the media) request of a re-zone to allow a Family Fare at 7 Mile and Northland. Which means, of course, that I am definitely gonna need an adult beverage (or several) after tonight's meeting!! ... and I certainly do not want to get started here right now on what would be (at least for me) a potentially immense, off-topic diatribe on the whole issue of development along Northland... Suffice to say, tonight it would be so much more fun to ponder light rail instead!

Anyway, maybe we plot another time to gather in person and chat mass transit? Maybe we even give a few of the folks over at GVMC a heads-up and have them join us?[\b]

That would be a great idea! Maybe we could entertain the idea of involving the greater community outside of UP-GR by holding some kind of forum with transit/rail professionals and all that jazz? Maybe we should entertain the idea with the private agencies that own these rails? We should come to this with respect toward private railway owners.

I'd like to test public perception... I'd plan for some kind of informational packet to distribute through the community demonstrating the idea and concepts of rail transit. I don't see why the community would at least entertain the idea.

Earlier in this discussion I've talked about the idea at this post.

Additionally, I've spoke with Coopersville Marne Railroad and they seem cordial to a viable business opportunity on their line. They contract with GRER to handle freight service on their line.

I think if we were all to combine our voices into a unified organization capable of raising money and grants that would do wonders. Or at the very least petition the community for input on this situation.

[CK1]

That's why I think you almost have to have a couple of different stations, and possibly different modes of transport feeding each. Do they necessarily all have to meet? Is there a great need for a lot of people to go from the South side to the North side, or vice versa?

You might be right...while there would be people that would want to go from south downtown to north downtown, the bus system could easily cover this. Otherwise, everything on the north side of GR is also found on the south side of GR (28th vs. Alpine and Plainfield), so a disconnect wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Having a public system is all that has been mentioned here - why not have a big money person come in and invest in a public/private venture? Perhaps allow the private investor access to TIF dollars for land around stations built on the system to help defray costs of building the system and acquiring land / equipment / cars?

Shoot, if Mr. DeVos can lose $173Mil on an investment in old folks homes, why not invest $50mil in a mass-transit system in his hometown that would directly/indirectly increase the value of his other assets?

Also, I agree - in order to get MDOT and the political force needed to make something like this a reality, OUR VOICES NEED TO BE HEARD! Votes definitely count, but $$ pouring from road contractors into the coffers of political parties responsible for awarding construction projects (i.e. Michigan Street and 196 expansion) sure has clout as well...

[GRDadof3]

A couple weeks ago I contacted Grand Rapids Eastern Railroad, the operators for the railway along E. Fulton - 196 into downtown. My understanding is that the rail isnt sufficient, that dosen't mean it can't happen. I did talk to some professionals that say the lines can be upgraded cheap -- I speak relatively. I can't talk for CSXT and their lines. We wouldn't really need to lay expensive main-line track, but more of upgrades.

I was told to look at Nashville by some rail professionals. On further inspection it looks great and posses a question to ask ourselves if this is a model to look at. Interesting to note that the Metra Cars from Chicago were purchased for just one dollar. I believe also that some of their backup locos are on loan from one of Tennessee's historical railway museums.

There's some hundred thousand cars on 131 every 24 hours I'd wonder how many of those cars are SOVs and that are commuting from the southern 'burbs. I'd also like to know how many of those commute to downtown or near downtown. Just observing the flow of traffic in and out of the area that the greatest potential would come in direct links with the the southern and northern suburbs.

That would be a great idea! Maybe we could entertain the idea of involving the greater community outside of UP-GR by holding some kind of forum with transit/rail professionals and all that jazz? Maybe we should entertain the idea with the private agencies that own these rails? We should come to this with respect toward private railway owners.

I'd like to test public perception... I'd plan for some kind of informational packet to distribute through the community demonstrating the idea and concepts of rail transit. I don't see why the community would at least entertain the idea.

Earlier in this discussion I've talked about the idea at this post.

Additionally, I've spoke with Coopersville Marne Railroad and they seem cordial to a viable business opportunity on their line. They contract with GRER to handle freight service on their line.

I think if we were all to combine our voices into a unified organization capable of raising money and grants that would do wonders. Or at the very least petition the community for input on this situation.

Did you draw that map Rizzo? That's pretty good. I also envision the stations along 131 being park-n-ride. In fact, the only ones that won't be would be stations in the dense parts of SE Grand Rapids, and those could probably be serviced by an advanced BRT system at a relatively low cost.

[FilmMaker]

Did you draw that map Rizzo? That's pretty good. I also envision the stations along 131 being park-n-ride. In fact, the only ones that won't be would be stations in the dense parts of SE Grand Rapids, and those could probably be serviced by an advanced BRT system at a relatively low cost.

I would agree that most stops should be park and ride where it is plausible - as GRDad suggests. About the only other thing I'd want to change on Rizzo's map is the line running to Holland (currently labeled "limited"). I'd want there to be a park-and-ride capability there to relieve the car volumes coming from that direction. My earlier idea suggested a terminal near Market Street (perhaps on the old landfill - which has a bike trail running through it as well). The line would ideally also connect the core to Millennium Park. There may be line sharing conflicts, but I'd envision a limited route being more of an Amtrak style of service that links Holland directly to the Amtrak terminal in GR - versus a light rail system that simply serves park-and-riders and daily commuters from a lot on the near perimeter.

Otherwise a great map to start from!!!

(reminder to self - keep thinking baby steps, keep thinking baby steps)

[Rizzo]

Did you draw that map Rizzo? That's pretty good. I also envision the stations along 131 being park-n-ride. In fact, the only ones that won't be would be stations in the dense parts of SE Grand Rapids, and those could probably be serviced by an advanced BRT system at a relatively low cost.

Yah I did this last night after brainstorming some... It was mostly a quick visual for my girlfriend so she get's whats going on. I think all this talk has her interested too -- she likes trains.

I was thinking the same thing after I did the design, Dad. I think 54th St. area has a good bit of siding in the ROW for a nice PaR facility.

Edited October 11, 2006 by Rizzo

[Veloise]

...

There's some hundred thousand cars on 131 every 24 hours I'd wonder how many of those cars are SOVs and that are commuting from the southern 'burbs. ...

Dibs on the on-train newspaper concession!

"Free Press, getcha Freep right here!"

[hey, that's what Thomas Edison did]

[CK1]

How could Mr. Meijer NOT want to put up money for this system? He puts in stations, guaranteed to have Mini-Meijer convenience stores built into each one. Let American Seating Company use the train cars as great demo's for their products, toss in a few Beaners for good measure (another Michigan-based company) along the way, and that ball will start rolling! I can see it now - Meijer Station, Steelcase Station, American Seating Station, Alticor Station, Van Andel Station, DeVos Station, Macatawa Bank Station, etc. etc. etc...the entire system will be covered.

[Veloise]

How could Mr. Meijer NOT want to put up money for this system? He puts in stations, guaranteed to have Mini-Meijer convenience stores built into each one. Let American Seating Company use the train cars as great demo's for their products, toss in a few Beaners for good measure (another Michigan-based company) along the way, and that ball will start rolling! I can see it now - Meijer Station, Steelcase Station, American Seating Station, Alticor Station, Van Andel Station, DeVos Station, Macatawa Bank Station, etc. etc. etc...the entire system will be covered.

And if any of the lines happened to go past a branch of a certain retail establishment that's only closed for a few hours 12/24-12/26, so much the better!

[tamias6]

I just had a brain storm. Granted this would be just a visual impact instead of a major mass transit upgrade. But to add more character to DT, I would replace the fleet of buses of the DASH system with trolly theme buses when the service life of the existing fleet ended. Just thought somthing like that would be kind of a neat and a charming addition to DT's urban atmosphere.

Also if and when the metro area gets a fixed guide way mass transit system going, instead of doing some sleek futuristic George Jetson style of trains or BRT vehicles, go with somthing that looks like its from the past. The light rail system in New Orleans with its green electric (I think) train cars would be a good example of the look and feel. People instantly warm up to somthing with charm and character. Trollies and other 19th centry mass transit options had a lot of charm character going for them. The advantages of today's modern technology can and should be used. But mask it with the old fashion look.