Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[John E]

The Rapid has uploaded renderings of the SilverLine BRT Station at Central Station with multiple angles to their Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=np.144271015.100000161314020&type=1

[GRDadof3]

The Rapid has uploaded renderings of the SilverLine BRT Station at Central Station with multiple angles to their Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=np.144271015.100000161314020&type=1

 

That link wasn't working. Maybe this one:

 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151842749552374.1073741829.43516312373&type=1&stream_ref=10

[John E]

Thank you that one works.
The one I gave works for me but not other people. I don't get that.

[sfloria]

I saw the station on Fulton near Jefferson the other night.  It was lit up quite nicely.  The tops of the support columns are lit up and there were down lights coming from the glass ceiling.  I was driving by so I couldn't take a picture.

[John E]

Peter Varga of the Rapid talking on WGVU about Street Cars:

http://www.wgvu.org/wgvunews/audio/fplayer1.cfm?styid=24768&id=tms

[GR_Urbanist]

Peter Varga of the Rapid talking on WGVU about Street Cars:

http://www.wgvu.org/wgvunews/audio/fplayer1.cfm?styid=24768&id=tms

 

Exactly why do we need a streetcar? Downtown is nowhere near big enough, or busy enough to justify this. From the audio it sounds like nothing but another vanity boondoggle predicated on the ridiculous notion that developers are going to trip all over themselves to put buildings next to any streetcar track. Never mind all of the other reasons why these buildings haven't gone up already. The main sticking point apparently is the lack of a streetcar line?

 

The cities they cite as examples are places that have hundreds of thousands of more people than GR, are larger in size, and are major regional or national cities. GR has nothing resembling that type of critical mass or importance to think that this makes sense here.

 

We have Go Buses that can fill this purpose. If people are chomping at the bit for a streetcar then they would already be filling an existing Go Bus line along N.Monroe.

[John E]

Exactly why do we need a streetcar? Downtown is nowhere near big enough, or busy enough to justify this. From the audio it sounds like nothing but another vanity boondoggle predicated on the ridiculous notion that developers are going to trip all over themselves to put buildings next to any streetcar track. Never mind all of the other reasons why these buildings haven't gone up already. The main sticking point apparently is the lack of a streetcar line?

 

The cities they cite as examples are places that have hundreds of thousands of more people than GR, are larger in size, and are major regional or national cities. GR has nothing resembling that type of critical mass or importance to think that this makes sense here.

 

We have Go Buses that can fill this purpose. If people are chomping at the bit for a streetcar then they would already be filling an existing Go Bus line along N.Monroe.

 

I have been against light rail and street cars from the beginning. I am TOTALLY against laying down rails and think that an overhead line is an eye-sore. I completely support having more BRT Lines. I'm sure the LakerLine will happen and many are hoping for an AlpineLine. I think those next two BRT Lines should have articulating buses to handle the large number of riders.

[MJLO]

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/02/streetcar_plan_for_grand_rapid.html#incart_river_default

 

Looks to be more of the same light rail study on the Monroe Corridor.  I feel like a three mile light rail line would be our version of the People Mover.

[GRDadof3]

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/02/streetcar_plan_for_grand_rapid.html#incart_river_default

 

Looks to be more of the same light rail study on the Monroe Corridor.  I feel like a three mile light rail line would be our version of the People Mover.

 

You have to start somewhere. You don't lay 30 miles of streetcar/lightrail line in one lump sum. And despite its perception, the People Mover now moves quite a few people every year, particularly with the casinos and the renovated convention center.

 

If it's going to be funded via private donations with some DDA assistance, I don't see a downside.

[Jippy]

I love the streetcar in the Portland Pearl District and the many billion dollars of neighborhood that it helped create. It is arguably the most attractive new-built neighborhood in America. Great neighborhood.

 

Not sure comparing population with other larger cities is really that appropriate for streetcars. It is a neighborhood serving transportation solution. What matters is what is happening in the immediate that the line will service. I gotta say, there is a tremendous amount of development momentum and seems like more every day. Streetcars will only accelerate those proposals. I am firmly in support of the streetcar and think it will be a huge economic boost to GR.

[GR_Urbanist]

80 millions to run a streetcar line on one of the least busiest stretches of road in DT GR? 

 

Between the transit station and the 6th street bridge? Why?

 

Transit advocates make my head hurt sometimes. They always forget the NEED and only care about the WANT. It will look good in a brochure, and they can brag that its there, but it will serve almost no purpose and isnt alleviating any traffic strain nor will it promote any development.

 

Did they forget that there is this place called Bridge St and Michigan St? Where there is actually a real NEED for something like this to serve the medical corridor?  A line that ran from Plymouth to the West Side Library is a golden opportunity. The possibilities and potential for the West Side and Michigan street east of the hospital is enormous!

 

 

This? This is a total waste.

[MJLO]

I know we have to start somewhere I get that.  When I lived in Phoenix they were building their light rail line.  20 miles from the denser part of the eastern suburbs, up through the city center and into the denser northern neighborhoods.  The amount of infill and good development created even a few years before it was finished was amazing.  I know we are not Phoenix,  but the corridor they are talking about is one of the lesser populated routes in the city.  If they are going to do it they might as well do it right.  The price tag on light rail infrastructure is always staggering and the mess it creates is quite a pain.  Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't BRT kind of provide the same function but without the pain in the butt infrastructure anyway?   Why would we need both?

[John E]

I know we have to start somewhere I get that.  When I lived in Phoenix they were building their light rail line.  20 miles from the denser part of the eastern suburbs, up through the city center and into the denser northern neighborhoods.  The amount of infill and good development created even a few years before it was finished was amazing.  I know we are not Phoenix,  but the corridor they are talking about is one of the lesser populated routes in the city.  If they are going to do it they might as well do it right.  The price tag on light rail infrastructure is always staggering and the mess it creates is quite a pain.  Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't BRT kind of provide the same function but without the pain in the butt infrastructure anyway?   Why would we need both?

 

Streetcars are different than light rail.

The purpose for most streetcars is for being an attraction.

BRT's cannot fulfill that purpose like streetcars can.

I agree that a BRT line could provide the same service but it wouldn't be an attraction.

I don't think it is wise to spend that kind of money on an attraction, when the money could be spent on more BRT lines, which would provide an actual service which is needed.

The cost for streetcar could provide for around 3 times the area with BRT.

[Jippy]

A bit of a different spin, MJLO:

 

Traditionally, BRT and LRT offer complementary service but provide different benefits. Cost efficiency vs passenger capacity vs redevelopment potential as well as a host other intangibles

A BRT bus is typically 40 ft long (articulated buses are generally 60 ft long). One LRT car is typically 94 ft long and are coupled together. So LRT is really geared to carrying greater numbers of passengers. I would definitely agree that for corridor routes, BRT is a better, more cost-effective solution for Grand Rapids based on our current population growth. 

 

 

Streetcar, while similar in look to LRT is a smaller vehicle to better navigate tight urban turns. The Portland streetcar is 66 ft long. So it too has a higher passenger carrying capacity. Throughout the country, there is fairly clear results of streetcars signaling a level of permanence to developers and potential users that produces greater redevelopment. Since BRT is a bit newer to the U.S. the jury is out if the correlation exists to produce the same results. Cleveland is certainly a notable example of BRT's opportunity. While some criticize streetcars as being a redundant service (or as JohnE describes, an "attraction"), the primary purpose for streetcars is convenient inter-neighborhood mobility. But the greater motivation in most city is the economic development potential that it seems to induce. This was witnessed in Portland, currently in Washington DC, Tuscon and St. Louis, and the primary driver foArlington on Columbia Pike and Portland Yards. The permanence of rail tracks signals that this route is not moving anywhere and also is easier for choice riders to visualize where the route leads. In Washington, there was a bus circulator that has traveled the H Street route for many years, but since construction of the street car line, there has been more development announced in the last year than the previous 20 years combined.

[jonathan.jam]

I think a combination (to provide for a downtown segment) of Route 7 (Bridge/Covell to Michigan/Plymouth) and Route 8 (Fulton/John Ball to Fulton/Lakeside) or Route 7 and Route 6 (Chicago/Marble to Leonard/Covell) from Harland Bartholomew's streetcar plan (link) would probably work best for a proposed first segment.

Edited February 5, 2014 by jonathan.jam

[GRDadof3]

A bit of a different spin, MJLO:

 

Traditionally, BRT and LRT offer complementary service but provide different benefits. Cost efficiency vs passenger capacity vs redevelopment potential as well as a host other intangibles

A BRT bus is typically 40 ft long (articulated buses are generally 60 ft long). One LRT car is typically 94 ft long and are coupled together. So LRT is really geared to carrying greater numbers of passengers. I would definitely agree that for corridor routes, BRT is a better, more cost-effective solution for Grand Rapids based on our current population growth. 

 

 

Streetcar, while similar in look to LRT is a smaller vehicle to better navigate tight urban turns. The Portland streetcar is 66 ft long. So it too has a higher passenger carrying capacity. Throughout the country, there is fairly clear results of streetcars signaling a level of permanence to developers and potential users that produces greater redevelopment. Since BRT is a bit newer to the U.S. the jury is out if the correlation exists to produce the same results. Cleveland is certainly a notable example of BRT's opportunity. While some criticize streetcars as being a redundant service (or as JohnE describes, an "attraction"), the primary purpose for streetcars is convenient inter-neighborhood mobility. But the greater motivation in most city is the economic development potential that it seems to induce. This was witnessed in Portland, currently in Washington DC, Tuscon and St. Louis, and the primary driver foArlington on Columbia Pike and Portland Yards. The permanence of rail tracks signals that this route is not moving anywhere and also is easier for choice riders to visualize where the route leads. In Washington, there was a bus circulator that has traveled the H Street route for many years, but since construction of the street car line, there has been more development announced in the last year than the previous 20 years combined.

 

Tampa has a pretty cool streetcar too. I just learned about it this year. Connects downtown to their historic distirct Ybor City.

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=tampa+florida&ll=27.961185,-82.441669&spn=0.001873,0.002642&hnear=Tampa,+Hillsborough,+Florida&gl=us&t=h&z=19

 

It apparently spurred a ton of redevelopment activity, nearing $700 Million. More of the old-fashioned version vs the newer articulated (which I like better).

[MJLO]

I'm definitely not opposed to the Idea,  I feel like the impediment would be the change averse suburbanites that would have to sign on to make it possible.  Didn't the city of Walker threaten to secede over BRT?  Maybe I don't fully understand if they would need to be a part of it, but I do know that we need as many burbs as possible to be a part of transit.

[wingbert]

I would think it would have a positive impact on convention business, ArtPrize, etc. by making the proposed North Monroe developments like hotels more accessible.  It would certainly make the convention pitch sound more interesting.  I mean, which sounds more attractive?

 

"While in Grand Rapids, catch the streetcar for easy travel between our various entertainment venues, convention center, and hotels"

 

or

 

"While in Grand Rapids, depending on where you are staying you can get in your car and drive a mile or three (watch out for those one way streets that often confuse visitors then find a parking garage and walk from there) or get on a bus (find a schedule and make sure you catch the right one) or walk (hope the weather is good) to get from your hotel to the convention and then out for fun that evening.

 

Yes, streetcars are an attraction and in the competitive battle for tourism dollars and convention business, etc. it is attractions that can make the difference.  

[GRDadof3]

I'm definitely not opposed to the Idea,  I feel like the impediment would be the change averse suburbanites that would have to sign on to make it possible.  Didn't the city of Walker threaten to secede over BRT?  Maybe I don't fully understand if they would need to be a part of it, but I do know that we need as many burbs as possible to be a part of transit.

 

I'll be the first to say that if this has to go to a six-city ITP millage vote, it will go down in utter defeat. The BRT just barely passed and it touches at least 3 cities. A downtown streetcar wouldn't do any of that, and would be called the streetcar to nowhere, monorai! and a whole host of other pejoratives. It has to be privately funded or it won't happen.

[John E]

I would think it would have a positive impact on convention business, ArtPrize, etc. by making the proposed North Monroe developments like hotels more accessible.  It would certainly make the convention pitch sound more interesting.  I mean, which sounds more attractive?

 

 

"While in Grand Rapids, catch the streetcar for easy travel between our various entertainment venues, convention center, and hotels"

 

 

or

 

 

"While in Grand Rapids, depending on where you are staying you can get in your car and drive a mile or three (watch out for those one way streets that often confuse visitors then find a parking garage and walk from there) or get on a bus (find a schedule and make sure you catch the right one) or walk (hope the weather is good) to get from your hotel to the convention and then out for fun that evening.

 

Yes, streetcars are an attraction and in the competitive battle for tourism dollars and convention business, etc. it is attractions that can make the difference.  

 

It could be used as a false promotional gimmick but the reality is that the two biggest, most prominent hotels for conventions have a skywalk right to DeVos Place and are almost right across the street from the GRAM.

The more I think about this streetcar proposal, the more I think it is a waste.

And I sure don't want to see tracks laid in the road and eyesore overhead cabling.

[GRDadof3]

It could be used as a false promotional gimmick but the reality is that the two biggest, most prominent hotels for conventions have a skywalk right to DeVos Place and are almost right across the street from the GRAM.

The more I think about this streetcar proposal, the more I think it is a waste.

And I sure don't want to see tracks laid in the road and eyesore overhead cabling.

 

Let the record show that John E is against the streetcar.

[hygge]

Streetcars are different than light rail.

The purpose for most streetcars is for being an attraction.

BRT's cannot fulfill that purpose like streetcars can.

I agree that a BRT line could provide the same service but it wouldn't be an attraction.

I don't think it is wise to spend that kind of money on an attraction, when the money could be spent on more BRT lines, which would provide an actual service which is needed.

The cost for streetcar could provide for around 3 times the area with BRT.

 

Your reasoning is completely false and discredits your argument that you have made ad nauseam over the last however many years.  A street car is not just an "attraction" like the Mystery Spot in the UP.  You should really get outside of GR and do some travelling.  Have you even been to Toronto?  I find it hard to believe that Queen Street, King Street, Dundas, ect would be so damn cool or pedestrian friendly without those streetcar lines.  The only thing those street cars have been attracting are global investment capital along their respective routes.  The street car lines are a vital piece of infrastructure for Toronto.  You can look at an endless list of cities that have these systems.  Street cars are nothing close to being a crappy tourist trap as you claim.  Further, our BRT isn't really BRT in the claims you attach to it.  The Silverline is really just an enhanced (slightly faster) bus system with less polluting, higher capacity, modern buses.  For the record, I am a homeowner who lives on the border of downtown and heritage hill and will probably never use the Silverline, but  I voted for the SL funding and I would do it again in a heart beat.  I think it can be a vital piece of our transportation mix and make commutes along the line shorter and hopefully more enjoyable.  I hope an enhanced system gets built to GVSU.  Regardless, all the data and facts suggest that a 3 mile street car line would be a boon for downtown and the city as a whole... especially if it were mostly or all funded by private donations.    

[GRDadof3]

Look how horrible those streetcars look and sound. And the tracks and overhead wires!! Turn it off!!

 

[John E]

BIG SLOW EYESORE
Just what the Tyrannical States of America WANTS.
I definitely do not like that streetcar video.

[GR_Urbanist]

Regardless, all the data and facts suggest that a 3 mile street car line would be a boon for downtown and the city as a whole... especially if it were mostly or all funded by private donations. 

 

Why? It doesn't go anywhere. It "conceivably" will run from the transit station to the 6th street bridge. So what? What is on N. Monroe right now that remotely points to a need for this?

 

I have to agree with John. If this is indeed anything beyond an attraction, then why isnt there already some special run of buses going between these locations already proving the usage and demand is there for something more elaborate? Where are the lines of people forced to walk from N. Monroe into DT because the bus system is too inadequate?

 

Where are the developments that are currently on-hold because there is no streetcar to service them?

 

 

Cities in other countries can be cited for evidence, but that is assuming that all cities are the same, and that a streetcar is just some product that can be plopped down anywhere and generate the same result.

 

Yes they are cool, and I can look at videos of them all day (I have) and drool at the idea, but these are expensive, and tax money is tight, so there has to be a solid need for these before I could ever support it.

 

But if private concerns want to pay for it, then more power to them! Please do it! I really want to ride one.