Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[GRDadof3]

I just had a brain storm. Granted this would be just a visual impact instead of a major mass transit upgrade. But to add more character to DT, I would replace the fleet of buses of the DASH system with trolly theme buses when the service life of the existing fleet ended. Just thought somthing like that would be kind of a neat and a charming addition to DT's urban atmosphere.

Also if and when the metro area gets a fixed guide way mass transit system going, instead of doing some sleek futuristic George Jetson style of trains or BRT vehicles, go with somthing that looks like its from the past. The light rail system in New Orleans with its green electric (I think) train cars would be a good example of the look and feel. People instantly warm up to somthing with charm and character. Trollies and other 19th centry mass transit options had a lot of charm character going for them. The advantages of today's modern technology can and should be used. But mask it with the old fashion look.

I think we had this discussion here last year. Old-fashioned style trollies make it look more like a tourist ride or theme park, as opposed to a legitimate transit system. At least, I think that's what the consensus was.

This to me says "Fast, modern, clean, ride me every day"

This to me says "Take me out to the ballgame"

[FilmMaker]

My aesthetic comments that follow are probably skewed by the fact that I just spent a couple hours with a dear friend who was one of the primary visionaries behind the design of the convention center and Rapid Station (both using what my 7yr old son calls the "wavy roofs")....

What if we had basic, clean, modern vehicles, but they incorporated a cool graphic exterior that emulated the wave forms of the Grand River, the Convention Center and the Rapid Station? For those needing an existing visual for reference, it would loosely resemble the exterior graphics on the new GR Press bldg (although I would in no way want our new transit system to seem connected the Press!!!) I do like how this would boldly celebrate the central feature of the core metro area: the Grand River.

In spite of my GR Press reference, I think you get my drift - perhaps it's less about the construction of the cars/busses (especially if we're thinking of picking up existing used train cars cheap) - and more about the exterior paint/color/graphic scheme we apply to those cars/busses. I'd want it to be something like another friend of mine, Steve Fryckholm at Herman Miller, did for their semi trucks - clearly unique and eye-catching - - something that establishes a very clear brand identity different than what everyone else is doing.

[tamias6]

My aesthetic comments that follow are probably skewed by the fact that I just spent a couple hours with a dear friend who was one of the primary visionaries behind the design of the convention center and Rapid Station (both using what my 7yr old son calls the "wavy roofs")....

What if we had basic, clean, modern vehicles, but they incorporated a cool graphic exterior that emulated the wave forms of the Grand River, the Convention Center and the Rapid Station? For those needing an existing visual for reference, it would loosely resemble the exterior graphics on the new GR Press bldg (although I would in no way want our new transit system to seem connected the Press!!!) I do like how this would boldly celebrate the central feature of the core metro area: the Grand River.

In spite of my GR Press reference, I think you get my drift - perhaps it's less about the construction of the cars/busses (especially if we're thinking of picking up existing used train cars cheap) - and more about the exterior paint/color/graphic scheme we apply to those cars/busses. I'd want it to be something like another friend of mine, Steve Fryckholm at Herman Miller, did for their semi trucks - clearly unique and eye-catching - - something that establishes a very clear brand identity different than what everyone else is doing.

Some of the new Rapids buses are decorated with cool looking wave theme graphics. I see one of them on the GVSU connector route every time I'm on Lake Michigan Dr. I think the rest of the fleet will have same graphics applied over time.

Edited October 11, 2006 by tamias6

[tamias6]

Here's a link to a picture of a New Orleans Street Car.

New Orleans Street Car

It has alot of character but I don't think it looks too theme park-ish.

Also here's a link to the Wikipedia article about New Orleans street cars with more photos of them in action.

Wikipedia Article

Something that looks acts and feels like these but had modern technology under the hood, would be a real cool treat. Just imagine one of these rolling through Heartside or Heritege Hill or maybe through Munroe Center. Personaly I don't see why somthing like these would not work. Heck, there were streetcars running through out GR way back in the late 1800's and early 1900's. GR's heritage is a hidden and untaped asset.

Edited October 11, 2006 by tamias6

[dtown]

if anything, they should get some articulated busses.

[Rizzo]

My aesthetic comments that follow are probably skewed by the fact that I just spent a couple hours with a dear friend who was one of the primary visionaries behind the design of the convention center and Rapid Station (both using what my 7yr old son calls the "wavy roofs")....

What if we had basic, clean, modern vehicles, but they incorporated a cool graphic exterior that emulated the wave forms of the Grand River, the Convention Center and the Rapid Station? For those needing an existing visual for reference, it would loosely resemble the exterior graphics on the new GR Press bldg (although I would in no way want our new transit system to seem connected the Press!!!) I do like how this would boldly celebrate the central feature of the core metro area: the Grand River.

In spite of my GR Press reference, I think you get my drift - perhaps it's less about the construction of the cars/busses (especially if we're thinking of picking up existing used train cars cheap) - and more about the exterior paint/color/graphic scheme we apply to those cars/busses. I'd want it to be something like another friend of mine, Steve Fryckholm at Herman Miller, did for their semi trucks - clearly unique and eye-catching - - something that establishes a very clear brand identity different than what everyone else is doing.

I cooked this up, is this what you envisioned? Graphics on a standard loco for this use. I'll put up some passenger cabs sometime tomorrow.

Edited October 12, 2006 by Rizzo

[snoogit]

That looks a lot like the new busses that the RAPID has been painting. I like it

[GRDadof3]

I cooked this up, is this what you envisioned? Graphics on a standard loco for this use. I'll put up some passenger cabs sometime tomorrow.

Love it!

[FilmMaker]

I'm loving it too!!!! (and I have a degree in graphic design)

We just need to make sure the guerilla marketers don't slap advertising all over them. I'd hate to see promos featuring "the Geha's" mug shot plastered all over them.

[Rizzo]

I'm loving it too!!!! (and I have a degree in graphic design)

We just need to make sure the guerilla marketers don't slap advertising all over them. I'd hate to see promos featuring "the Geha's" mug shot plastered all over them.

No Gehas...

But I'd go for this:

Imagine the people looking at Heartwell zooming by.

Edited October 13, 2006 by Rizzo

[Rizzo]

Here's a Pullman Standard bi-level coach car with a simple exterior. FilmMaker, I guess if want waves I can add some in -- maybe a salmon making a splash too!

Edited October 13, 2006 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

No, please no Heartwell or salmons.

[FilmMaker]

Not to take this thread totally off track (pun intended), what if the cars were mostly white with a tasteful blue and green wave graphic running down their sides - - less or cheaper paint required, withstands the elements longer before looking faded, etc. Just trying to think brighter and bolder on a very cold dreary day.

Maybe all I need is a warm cup of cocoa, a blanket and a long nap...

[Rizzo]

Not to take this thread totally off track (pun intended), what if the cars were mostly white with a tasteful blue and green wave graphic running down their sides - - less or cheaper paint required, withstands the elements longer before looking faded, etc. Just trying to think brighter and bolder on a very cold dreary day.

Maybe all I need is a warm cup of cocoa, a blanket and a long nap...

You'd probably have to still paint the white

On the right track?

Edited October 13, 2006 by Rizzo

[CK1]

The white would be a tough sell...winter's in Michigan do wonders the exterior beauty of anything and everything

I think this is a great design, but keep the bottom under the wave silver (or even the whole thing silver except for the trim line), as this would keep painting and re-painting to a minimum, and would help hide inevitable dirt / grime.

[Veloise]

...

No nononononono. You don't want to have to change the graphics every time a politician does something. City of Detroit plastered COLEMAN A YOUNG MAYOR all over everything, and the expense of changing that to Archer, then Kwame, was...a lot.

The cityscape is a nice touch, however.

Seen the freeway overpass paint jobs? I think there's one on I-96 at the recently-completed exit.

[Rizzo]

No nononononono. You don't want to have to change the graphics every time a politician does something. City of Detroit plastered COLEMAN A YOUNG MAYOR all over everything, and the expense of changing that to Archer, then Kwame, was...a lot.

The cityscape is a nice touch, however.

Seen the freeway overpass paint jobs? I think there's one on I-96 at the recently-completed exit.

I orignially was going to put a monocle and top hat to complete the Heartwell graphic... It was funny for the moment, I was to busy laughing so I forgot.

I haven't seen Michigan freeway overpasses in a month, and I haven't seen ones on 96 or 196 in over a year. How are they painted.

Edited October 13, 2006 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

What's wrong with using the RAPID's new look?

Got some new pictures for you guys to keep the wheels spinning. This is South of downtown just East of the Union Station development, where the current rail line comes into downtown. The overpass that you see with the cars going over is 131 heading into downtown. It jogs a little to the NE before it hits the S-curve. The railroad tracks actually run pretty straight N-S. Looks like there's enough room to add another track to the far right in this picture.

Crossed over the tracks now, you should recognize the ANTIQUES lettering in the window. The bridge is 131. This little service drive I'm on would be an excellent location for the added rail line. There are also a lot of vacant industrial parcels East of this spot that might make for some interesting opportunities.

Extra viaduct on the right that lines up perfectly with the ITP station

Current DASH lot 6 that the RAPID is exercising their option on. Goes under Wealthy unencumbered.

Looking back South under 131 from Century. Tracks can be seen in the distance. They are just rebuilding Century right now as far as I know.

LAST STOP

With corresponding map showing some sort of station "node" at Hall Street:

[GRDadof3]

Austin is in progress of building a commuter rail line on an existing freight rail corridor, called the Austin Capital MetroRail

32 Miles, 3 planned park-n-ride stops, 6 pedestrian stops, cost of around $100 Million (from what I can gather).

Powered by Diesel Multiple Unit trains built by Stadler Bussnang AG of Switzerland, 6 trains purchased for $38 Million, requiring no overhead electrical lines.

Me like!

You can find more information here.

[snoogit]

I though DMUs were illegal in the US? or required to meet with normal rail-line standards, one of the two.

Actually I found this:

http://www.coloradorailcar.com/dmuhome.htm

might not be a bad idea.

Edited October 14, 2006 by snoogit

[Rizzo]

^If I remember correctly the FRA prohibits light DMUs on main line rail.

Other: Mr. Roger Morgan, Chair of Kent County representing District 3 early this year was charged in deciding whether or not Kent County would fully sponsor a full-scale study for modern mass-transit. The study would include looking at having extend the transit system throughout the whole County including Morgan's representative area: City of Cedar Springs, Courtland Township, Kent City Village, Nelson Township, City of Rockford, Sand Lake Village, Solon Township, Spencer Township, Tyrone Township.

The study was also going to look at funding for extending the system via bus, rail, and shuttle. I haven't heard anything on this and earlier today I contacted Mr. Morgan on the progress of this subject and hope to have something revived on this. Does anyone know more about this?

The study/task-force was expected to take anywhere from one - two years. If a study like this was conducted with majority in support that would look to me as solidarity in respect to funding a transit system useful for everyone in the County not limited to just the core cities. What will be really beneficial is to see a transit cooperative between Kent, Ottawa, and Muskegon County.

Edited October 14, 2006 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

Here's a little more info on DMU's in the United States:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_units

It sounds like they can't be used on main line tracks, but I would think they could be used if you laid a new track system. But I wonder if that track system can be in the same ROW of the freight lines, like Nashville's? The article does mention Colorado Rail Car. That would be a way cooler alternative to the old diesel models. They also consume a 1/2 gallon fuel/mile as opposed to 2 - 3 gallons/mile as a traditional diesel.

Rizzo,

I haven't heard an update on the funding for the study. There was $14.4 Million set aside by the Feds, and the State of Michigan passed the bill that would allow the Grand Rapids area to collect revenue over the extended amount of time (through some sort of transit millage) to create the matching funds needed. I also wonder where this sits now? I'm surprised they haven't crafted something to present to voters in November???

[Rizzo]

Here's a little more info on DMU's in the United States:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_units

It sounds like they can't be used on main line tracks, but I would think they could be used if you laid a new track system. But I wonder if that track system can be in the same ROW of the freight lines, like Nashville's? The article does mention Colorado Rail Car. That would be a way cooler alternative to the old diesel models.

Rizzo,

I haven't heard an update on the funding for the study. There was $14.4 Million set aside by the Feds, and the State of Michigan passed the bill that would allow the Grand Rapids area to collect revenue (through some sort of transit millage) to create the matching funds needed. I also wonder where this sits now? I'm surprised they haven't crafted something to present to voters in November???

I think Metra is going to test some DMUs on my line... I'll see if I can get on one and report back on the ride I'm not to hip in the "design," but I do like the concept. I'm more of a traditionalist in the locomotive and coach design.

Maybe I'll here more on this from Mr. Morgan. I've been writing a lot to find out where everyone is and on the same page with this issue. I'm really interested to hear from Faith in Motion... That organization's mission statement will have great potential in the community to spur more interest in this issue.

Last night I read through MLUI's Getting There Together packet (PDF) and as I read through it, there was a tone of urgency -- and this was written last year. Come to think of it, it sounds like there was a sense of urgency in almost all the literature on this subject. In fairness I wouldn't expect these things to be quick and decisive. You'd think that this topic of transit was an important value in sustainability and environment protection that the sense of urgency would transcend into response time on this issue.

Great to make this topic a sticky.

Edited October 14, 2006 by Rizzo

[DwntwnGeo]

GRDad,

I think your route (south along US131) was studied in the GT2 proposal. I thought it mentioned that the route wouldn't be cost productive because the existing "heavy" rail track lies in the middle of the ROW. It is possible but you would have to relocate the existing track to one side in order to build a new light-rail track in the same ROW. Another option would be to purchase some additional ROW along that stretch

On a side note, wasn't the people conducting the GT2 study suppose to report back to the Rapid this Fall in regards to which route they would pick (between, south division or Eastown?Woodland) and also which type of transit (Streetcar or BRT)? I wonder if they have to look at things again because of the new KROC going on on south Division?

[Rizzo]

GRDad,

I think your route (south along US131) was studied in the GT2 proposal. I thought it mentioned that the route wouldn't be cost productive because the existing "heavy" rail track lies in the middle of the ROW. It is possible but you would have to relocate the existing track to one side in order to build a new light-rail track in the same ROW. Another option would be to purchase some additional ROW along that stretch

On a side note, wasn't the people conducting the GT2 study suppose to report back to the Rapid this Fall in regards to which route they would pick (between, south division or Eastown?Woodland) and also which type of transit (Streetcar or BRT)? I wonder if they have to look at things again because of the new KROC going on on south Division?

Here is a recent writing (as of 8/3/2006) by Andy Guy from Michigan Land Use Institute:

Broad agreement also unites a committee of business leaders, mayors, and citizens who are now finalizing a study that will position the city to construct its first serious public transit line in nearly 80 years. Those observing the Great Transit Grand Tomorrow task force predict the group will soon recommend locating the main line of a major street car or rapid bus system along Division Avenue. The initial route could terminate just blocks from Health Hill.

More here : http://www.mlui.org/transportation/fullart...sp?fileid=17075

Edited October 14, 2006 by Rizzo