Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[x99]

I don't understand what this obsession is with breaking down bus financing to the n-th decimal place. The Kent County crackpot payers do it, everyone seems to be doing it lately. It it because buses can be seen so visibly every day so they're an easy target? Do people break down what it costs per vehicle mile to plow streets every year? How much gas is burned in city owned lawnmowers? What a one mile stretch of 131 costs the average taxpayer? My Mother used to say that the tigher you squeeze your money, the more slips through your fingers.

 

I see this more like the County asking for a millage to build a new 80 story office building downtown to encourage sustainable land use patterns. Even if the existing buildings are not full, tall buildings are better for urban land use patterns, you see, and this one will have bamboo walls, high end eco-friendly climate control, top rate insulation, and green you name it.  The catch?  No walls are allowed on any floor (to encourage open communication) and there are no elevators (to encourage exercise) and there will be no windows (to keep the building "green" and decrease employee distraction).  They try to give space away for free for a year, and the building gets only half full (a third from people who just moved in from next door).  The County celebrates that they have had wide acceptance of their new building!  Then they start charging, and the building goes to 30% occupancy.  Another celebration!  They are charging money and people still will use the building!  And they are generating lots of jobs maintaining the building!  A smashing success! And it only cost $50 million!

 

It is this "Well, someone is using it, so we are succeeding regardless of cost" mentality that has infected the ITP and mass transit in general.  They spend money freely to find "solutions" to problems that do not exist, and if they did exist, the "solutions" would not match the actual need desires, and are achieved with no regard to cost. 

 

I would have eaten my words had the launch been a smashing success, but when you can't hardly give it away... Well. 

[Jippy]

I don't understand what this obsession is with breaking down bus financing to the n-th decimal place. The Kent County crackpot payers do it, everyone seems to be doing it lately. It it because buses can be seen so visibly every day so they're an easy target? Do people break down what it costs per vehicle mile to plow streets every year? How much gas is burned in city owned lawnmowers? What a one mile stretch of 131 costs the average taxpayer? My Mother used to say that the tigher you squeeze your money, the more slips through your fingers.

 

I'm all for making sure public investments are efficient and achieving a public good, but I get a bit annoyed with the continued attempts to veil opposition as a reasoning exercise that uses very little reason. A long list of qualifiers and slanted language (e.g. "pillaging") immediately turns off anyone that one is trying to convince, and really just comes off as a shallow attempt to gloat of one's intelligence.  

 

A well rounded argument would take into account the MPG calculations as was done, but also include the other stated goals of the project: land use, economic development, parking demand reduction, efficiency of the route (keep in mind that the Silver Lines "pillaging" of other routes also indicates that those riders made rational decisions that said service is a more effective route than the previous one), accessibility improvements for low-income and disabled citizens, and recognition that investments are not about immediate return on investment. I don't expect to double my money in the first week of any investment that I make.

 

Picking and choosing a narrow set of data to demonstrate the apparent failure of an investment really does nothing for me. If someone told me that my mutual fund selection sucks because the fee is higher than the industry average, then they clearly failed the test of accounting for the fact that my rate of return is dramatically higher than the industry average, even when accounting for the higher fee. The same reasoning applies in this case.

[sfloria]

It'll take a while for people to get used to a new bus and new bus stops.  As the weeks go by I think the ridership will increase.

Edited September 18, 2014 by sfloria

[GR_Urbanist]

 

It is this "Well, someone is using it, so we are succeeding regardless of cost" mentality that has infected the ITP and mass transit in general.  They spend money freely to find "solutions" to problems that do not exist, and if they did exist, the "solutions" would not match the actual need desires, and are achieved with no regard to cost. 

 

I would have eaten my words had the launch been a smashing success, but when you can't hardly give it away... Well. 

 

Totally agree.

 

It is becoming very clear that everything that people warned about is becoming a glaring reality. I was surprised that the Silverline is still offering free trips, and I think it has almost been a month now? Supposedly because the fare machine system isnt working? Seriously? Do they think they can keep using that story almost 30 days later?

 

And from multiple sources, it is clear that the numbers even with free trips are nowhere near what were promised, let alone any evidence at TOD even being hinted at along the route.

 

The burden is on the ITP to make good on their bragging, and so far they are laying low and offering excuses. It isnt enough to say "well it will take awhile". They dont have awhile, not after how this all got passed, not after all of the lofty promises made, and how it is affecting more people through traffic tie-ups than it is moving people in the buses.

[dbrock1046]

Just a question. Where are all these supposed traffic tie ups at? I live very near Wealthy and Division and drive that route everyday at prime traffic time (7-8am and 5-5:45pm) I never ever have any more problems than I did six months ago, or a year ago. Matter of fact, honestly with the extra turn lane on North bound Division traffic has been BETTER. Also just my two cents but when has any project ever been judged about its long term benefits in the span of thirty days? 

[jonathan.jam]

I wonder if the delays caused by the torn up intersection at 44th and Division are having an impact on numbers...

[GR_Urbanist]

Just a question. Where are all these supposed traffic tie ups at? I live very near Wealthy and Division and drive that route everyday at prime traffic time (7-8am and 5-5:45pm) I never ever have any more problems than I did six months ago, or a year ago. Matter of fact, honestly with the extra turn lane on North bound Division traffic has been BETTER. Also just my two cents but when has any project ever been judged about its long term benefits in the span of thirty days? 

 

When I pick up my wife @5pm from the west side, I now have to avoid Jefferson and Fulton because it is a total zoo. Cars routinely stretch almost halfway to Cherry because all of the left turns have to stay in the left lane, and there isnt enough room to accommodate those cars and the cars coming west on Fulton that all have to get in the left lane so they dont block the right lane by the station at Ransom. If you need to turn left on Fulton from Jefferson, you now will have to wait through almost 4-5 light cycles if you dont bail at Weston. This is the same situation at the Pearl and Monroe intersection.

[GRDadof3]

When I pick up my wife @5pm from the west side, I now have to avoid Jefferson and Fulton because it is a total zoo. Cars routinely stretch almost halfway to Cherry because all of the left turns have to stay in the left lane, and there isnt enough room to accommodate those cars and the cars coming west on Fulton that all have to get in the left lane so they dont block the right lane by the station at Ransom. If you need to turn left on Fulton from Jefferson, you now will have to wait through almost 4-5 light cycles if you dont bail at Weston. This is the same situation at the Pearl and Monroe intersection.

 

There are going to be some growing pains, and they may adjust some of the traffic routing. With the amount of investment made in this, it will take some time to have good numbers on its use.

 

Imagine if light rail had been built at 10x the cost and the ridership was at this rate? Which most likely would've happened. Grand Rapids would be doomed to a life of mediocre transit forever.

[x99]

Imagine if light rail had been built at 10x the cost and the ridership was at this rate? Which most likely would've happened. Grand Rapids would be doomed to a life of mediocre transit forever.

 

Actually, we have a very good network of roads that carry personal vehicles quite well (although they did a better job before the "planners" intentionally mucked them up).   I hope I'm wrong (because I hate to see money flushed down a rat hole), but I don't think the idea that simply building BRT would mean an influx of users is going to pan out.  A free ride on a shiny new toy seems to me about as good as it gets.  They shot at a target and the target left the room.

 

 

[...]  not after all of the lofty promises made, and how it is affecting more people through traffic tie-ups than it is moving people in the buses.

 

Bingo.  GVMC traffic count database:  http://gvmc.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Gvmc&mod=

Two-way traffic counts are between 12,000 and 18,000 per day on the stretch of Division served by the Silver Line.  In the downtown and near-downtown areas, counts are about 13,000.  Along a significant stretch of that road, for at least part of the day, a bus uses an entire lane to carry less than 2000 people at any given point along the route vs cars using a remaining lane to carry about 20,000 people (assuming each car has at least one and less than two people in it).  It makes no rational sense to dedicate a lane of a busy thoroughfare to a mode of transit that carries TEN TIMES fewer passengers.  I don't even want to get into the "road diet" Division was subjected to which has caused an intransigent logjam from 7:30AM to 8PM. 

 

We don't have a parking shortage or a land shortage, and now we're causing traffic jams where none previously existed by bulking up on transit we don't have a real need for anyway.  It would be one thing if it worked, but at risk of sound like a broken record, if you can't give it away...

Edited September 19, 2014 by x99

[wingbert]

 

We don't have a parking shortage or a land shortage, and now we're causing traffic jams where none previously existed by bulking up on transit we don't have a real need for anyway.  It would be one thing if it worked, but at risk of sound like a broken record, if you can't give it away...

 

Welp, if they don't like the traffic jams they should take the bus instead.

[fotoman311]

Welp, if they don't like the traffic jams they should take the bus instead.

 

It sure is nicer as a pedestrian walking on Division to not have traffic zooming by 5 ft away at 30+mph.

[x99]

Welp, if they don't like the traffic jams they should take the bus instead.

 

Can't argue with that logic.  Let's go one better and chain off the city and put up a sign that say "NO CARS ALLOWED."  That should work miracles for the bus!

 

EDIT:    More Silver Line news from last Thursday:  http://www.wwmt.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/I-Team-Waste-Watch-Issues-with-new-Silver-Line-in-GR-41484.shtml

 

They're still giving away free rides and saying, "Golly, we don't really care because we expected this".  And during ArtPrize you'll be able to get a $5 wristband good for any bus in town including the SilverLine for all 19 days.  So we're going to be waiting a looooong time for those ridership figures.  http://woodtv.com/2014/09/22/silver-line-bus-available-to-visitors-during-artprize/  

Edited September 22, 2014 by x99

[GRJohn]

I haven't ridden the Silver Line yet but I think the best feature is that I will be able to pay with a credit card.  I don't usually carry cash with me anymore and being able to buy a ticket with a card makes it really easy for me.  I wish they had those ticket machines on the 6 line.  I know that they were having issues with the machines but I'm sure they will work them out.

[GRDadof3]

I saw one of those yellow vehicles that look like they measure the railroad (?) riding along the track near the new Amtrak station. Getting close?

[x99]

I saw one of those yellow vehicles that look like they measure the railroad (?) riding along the track near the new Amtrak station. Getting close?

 

I hope so.  This has taken a rather long time.   Speaking of trains, it never ceases to baffle me that 80 years ago trains looked like something from the future and could go 100+mph and today we have the Amtrak double-decker, pig slow, constantly broken, Cadillac Brougham Sedan de Cimarron, Hummer Special Edition version.  An unholy amagamation of crap that does nothing well.

 

I would happily pay twice as much to take a magic train that could get to Chicago in two and a half hours.  You would think this sort of thing would not be that difficult or expensive.  But this is the US of A, where it apparently costs billions to lay some half decent tracks down, and we pay the train snack cart guy a hundred grand a year to dish out booze in a mini bottle and microwaved vending machine pastries.

[x99]

Cadillac hasn't made the cimarron in thirty years and hummer is defunct. Just saying.

 

So you get the point then.  Sort of.  I think.  Life must be tough for you sometimes. 

 

Rode by a SL bus this morning up by the hospital slightly before 9AM.  2 people on it.  Still have not seen one word here or elsewhere to alleviate concerns that this project is not going as intended, although it may be going as most of us expected.  And Division southbound between Fulton and Michigan was still backed up like a @#$(*# at 7PM.  Same thing this morning.  Lots of right turning cars with no more lane to service them, idling away and wasting gas, while the shiny new bike lane sat very, very empty.  Gotta love the "green" road diets and bus lanes.  Yeah, I know ...

[wingbert]

So you get the point then.  Sort of.  I think.  Life must be tough for you sometimes. 

 

Rode by a SL bus this morning up by the hospital slightly before 9AM.  2 people on it.  Still have not seen one word here or elsewhere to alleviate concerns that this project is not going as intended, although it may be going as most of us expected.  And Division southbound between Fulton and Michigan was still backed up like a @#$(*# at 7PM.  Same thing this morning.  Lots of right turning cars with no more lane to service them, idling away and wasting gas, while the shiny new bike lane sat very, very empty.  Gotta love the "green" road diets and bus lanes.  Yeah, I know ...

 

 

   should be your avatar.

[Allison Slater]

What direction was it headed?  That can play a major role in how busy a bus may be.  (Example, saw people waiting a lots of inbound stations, but the outbound stations were all empty at the start of artprize.)

[ModSquad]

If you really want to look at ridership go down the the southern end of the Silver Line in Wyoming at 60th street.  The parking lot there is packed every single day.

[GRDadof3]

MLive had this chart that showed ridership numbers. I'd say it's not bad for the first month in, but WAY too early to say it's a success or failure yet.

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/240886380/Silver-Line-daily-ridership-comparison

[organsnyder]

The numbers certainly look good so far. Of course, the detractors will be quick to point out that the route was free for much of that time, and the "new and shiny" factor probably also played a role. They're absolutely right—it's much too early to label the SL as either a success or a failure.

[ModSquad]

We talked to leadership at the Rapid about numbers.  Their comments was that, needless to say, they have studied these type of public transportation lines in metropolitan areas similar to the greater GR area and in every case you have to wait at least 1 year before you can really see where the numbers are going to level off.  It takes about 5 years before you see significant tangible signs of economic development along the route.

[Allison Slater]

The route 15 all throughout today is the busiest I've seen any rapid bus ever before.  Standing room from front all the way to back at the start of the route, each time I rode it.  And that's with twice as many buses (double frequency) than normal today.  Most seemed to be ArtPrizers taking their first trip on the bus.

[GR_Urbanist]

If anyone is unfortunate enough to ever be at Fulton and Ransom when SL buses at at the nearest stops be warned that the stupid bus turning off Fulton to Ransom has NO problem almost slamming into your car to make a right turn (this seems to be an annoying habit on other routes too).

 

And then the other bus on Ransom does not care how many cars are in the only lane that are turning left onto Fulton and will barrel itself into the intersection cutting off whomever is in that lane making their turn.

 

Does the ITP teach their drives that it is totally ok to drive like this? I almost got hit TWICE by these morons.

[Fester]

Trackwork is done and the new passenger station lead track is now connected to the main line at Pleasant & Buchanan. yay!