Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[Raildudes dad]

Shared use path means multiple uses, walking, biking, roller blading , non motorized activities. The 2 largest customers of the rail line are Amway in Ada and King Milling in Lowell. The current owner of the tracks Genesse & Wyoming who own the Grand Rapids Eastern is opposed to sharing their ROW with any trail use. Ideally, there would be trail with rail like the Fred Meijer Pioneer Trail west of Meijer headquarters.

[GRDadof3]

Shared use path means multiple uses, walking, biking, roller blading , non motorized activities. The 2 largest customers of the rail line are Amway in Ada and King Milling in Lowell. The current owner of the tracks Genesse & Wyoming who own the Grand Rapids Eastern is opposed to sharing their ROW with any trail use. Ideally, there would be trail with rail like the Fred Meijer Pioneer Trail west of Meijer headquarters.

That is a nice trail, I rode that a couple of weeks ago. Lots of people walking on it too (I assumed from the nearby employers like Irwin Seating). 

[GRDadof3]

Here we go again..

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2015/08/dilemma_confronts_grand_rapids.html

The answer is simple: shuttle buses from the burbs to downtown with little or no stops in between. It's certainly less expensive than $15 Million for a parking ramp + maintenance of said parking ramp.

 

Edited August 18, 2015 by GRDadof3

[GR_Urbanist]

People simple are not going to waste time on buses or do something goofy like biking or walking across town just to go DT because there is nothing there that is that spectacular to want to put up with the added inconvenience of having to add more physical exertion or having to turn over part or all of your ability to come and go as you please to some other entity that doesn't run on your time-table.

This simply isn't a big enough city, and downtown as a consistent attraction that people that live further out want to visit, is average at best. Mediocre if you don't like beer. This is why retail is still locating further and further out from the center of town and people are willing to drive there in the thousands for outlet mall quality clothes.

But let's totally spend over 100k more to see how they can "encourage" people to not drive DT because DT is such a hot daily destination with all of the stores, movie theaters, monuments, and unique attractions that far outshine anything in the burbs.

Sadly city hall will not likely face reality anytime soon. They will keep on pushing this mentality until people simply stop coming, which DT cant afford to have happen right now since there is nowhere near enough people living down there to replace all of the people in cars that will just take their money elsewhere.

[wingbert]

People simple are not going to waste time on buses or do something goofy like biking or walking across town just to go DT because there is nothing there that is that spectacular to want to put up with the added inconvenience of having to add more physical exertion or having to turn over part or all of your ability to come and go as you please to some other entity that doesn't run on your time-table.

This simply isn't a big enough city, and downtown as a consistent attraction that people that live further out want to visit, is average at best. Mediocre if you don't like beer. This is why retail is still locating further and further out from the center of town and people are willing to drive there in the thousands for outlet mall quality clothes.

But let's totally spend over 100k more to see how they can "encourage" people to not drive DT because DT is such a hot daily destination with all of the stores, movie theaters, monuments, and unique attractions that far outshine anything in the burbs.

Sadly city hall will not likely face reality anytime soon. They will keep on pushing this mentality until people simply stop coming, which DT cant afford to have happen right now since there is nowhere near enough people living down there to replace all of the people in cars that will just take their money elsewhere.

 

Truer words have rarely been spoken.  As someone with youngish children who moved to the "burbs" from the city over 10 years ago I will say that my wife, kids and I enjoy visiting downtown.  However, there is no way in Hades we are packing the family onto a bus to head downtown.  If downtown becomes inhospitable to our ability to visit via a personal vehicle, I can heartily assure you that there are enough entertainment/shopping/drinking & dining options outside the downtown area to keep us happy for the foreseeable future.

Edited August 18, 2015 by wingbert

[egrguy]

 

Truer words have rarely been spoken.  As someone with youngish children who moved to the "burbs" from the city over 10 years ago I will say that my wife, kids and I enjoy visiting downtown.  However, there is no way in Hades we are packing the family onto a bus to head downtown.  If downtown becomes inhospitable to our ability to visit via a personal vehicle, I can heartily assure you that there are enough entertainment/shopping/drinking & dining options outside the downtown area to keep us happy for the foreseeable future.

That comment is coming from a DT proponent. Just think of those that make 2-3 trips a year find it a hassle and don't ever come back. I can't say that I don't disagree with that at all. I am not going to "work" to enjoy downtown when I can leisurely can get anywhere else with much greater convenience. 

Usually things work the other way around and businesses and cities try to make it more convenient for you to spend your money there. 

[x99]

The answer is simple: shuttle buses from the burbs to downtown with little or no stops in between. It's certainly less expensive than $15 Million for a parking ramp + maintenance of said parking ramp.

Huh? The ramps pay for themselves and turn a profit.  The buses come nowhere close.  Ferrying people in on buses is fiscal insanity, and certain not "less expensive" according to any reasonably honest balance sheet. 

Sadly city hall will not likely face reality anytime soon. They will keep on pushing this mentality until people simply stop coming, which DT cant afford to have happen right now since there is nowhere near enough people living down there to replace all of the people in cars that will just take their money elsewhere.

Or they will push it until those of us who already came to give it a shot pack up and move out.  You are absolutely right.  I have tried to be a proponent of downtown and urban environments.  I bought a house here, I work here, I volunteer.  I was optimistic.  But I am tired of it.  These people just don't get it, and it is becoming clear they never will.   Living next to an office complex with some bars and a few scattered overpriced restaurants isn't very appealing. 

I hate to say it, but there are a lot of ways the new Tanger Outlets are a more successful "downtown" area than what we have.  They built it for $80 million and everyone wants to come from far and wide.  Traffic backs up for miles, but people gladly wait.  We built the downtown market for $30 million, and it certainly does not have and will never have half the users/demand.  If traffic backs up in downtown, people HOWL because there is nothing worth waiting in line for.  All they have is a half-baked office park with a few event-based attractions, and they are doing nothing to fix that.  So they try to manage the office park by telling people it is full, when it is not even close.

There is no dilemma here, and there should be no confusion: Go to war with the suburbs.  Build endless amounts of free, subsidized parking.  Or charge a buck, whatever.  Stuff in as many traffic lanes as will fit.  Advertise how amazing your free parking and that you have, what--four or five freeway exits?  That is your transit because that is what people who have money to buy stuff actually want to use--those millions of people who are all centrally located to this place.  But they won't do it because they don't care, or they don't see it.  It is as if there is an endless tape loop playing in their collective administrative head that says "Officeparkofficeparktakethebusofficeparkofficeparktakethebusofficeparkofficeparktakethebus......"

Edited August 18, 2015 by x99

[RegalTDP]

Shorter x99 aka Yogi Berra: "Nobody goes downtown anymore.  It's too crowded."

Everyone please stop flying off the handle.  GRDad is talking about commuter busing, which is not revolutionary and is already done in cities smaller than GR (like Ann Arbor).  This isn't family leisure or weekend travel, it's buses that go inbound in the morning and outbound at night.  I believe we already have a commuter bus in GR that serves Ferris with a stop in Cedar Springs.  So it's not revolutionary.  You can place a route and serve any area wherever you need it.  1 route, 2 routes, wherever.

People need to calm down and stop going apesh*t every time we talk about this.  There is no scenario where Grand Rapids grows and becomes easier to drive in.  None.  It's not just about parking spaces, but about congestion also.  Spend some time where I live if you want to know what I'm talking about.  The city's going to bear the blame for any and all traffic and parking problems from here on, because there is no solution.  Driving will become harder.  That's all there is.  So at least they, and people here on UP, are looking to invest in other modes before it becomes a bigger problem.

 

Edited August 19, 2015 by RegalTDP
grammar

[GRDadof3]

Shorter x99 aka Yogi Berra: "Nobody goes downtown anymore.  It's too crowded."

Everyone please stop flying off the handle.  GRDad is talking about commuter busing, which is not revolutionary and is already done in cities smaller than GR (like Ann Arbor).  This isn't family leisure or weekend travel, it's buses that go inbound in the morning and outbound at night.  I believe have a commuter bus in GR that serves Ferris with a stop in Cedar Springs.  So it's not revolutionary.  You can place a route and serve any area wherever you need it.  1 route, 2 routes, wherever.

People need to calm down and stop going apesh*t every time we talk about this.  There is no scenario where Grand Rapids grows and becomes easier to drive in.  None.  It's not just about parking spaces, but about congestion also.  Spend some time where I live if you want to know what I'm talking about.  The city's going to bear the blame for any and all traffic and parking problems from here on, because there is no solution.  Driving will become harder.  That's all there is.  So at least they, and people here on UP, are looking to invest in other modes before it becomes a bigger problem.

 

 

I hate to say that "we need a study" but seriously, there needs to be a study done of who drives downtown and uses the ramps, and where they live. BASED ON MY OWN EXPERIENCES of knowing at least 40 people who work downtown, 38 of them don't even live in the city of GR. They don't live near the bus lines. 38 out of 40 will never elect to ride the bus to work, or bike to work (and be a complete ball of sweat when they reach the office 9 miles from home), because who has that kind of time?

When people sign up for a parking permit for a ramp, is there not a way to ask them what their home zip code is? When people pay to park at a ramp with their credit card, can they not type in their zip code? Helps with credit card security anyway, in addition to gathering demographic data.

I understand what Suzanne and others at the city are saying, that eventually with all of the development pressure, the city cannot force parking requirements due to restricted amount of land. We ALL get that here at UP.

But why is the city spending $150,000 to come up with a marketing plan? How about a systems plan?

It's like MDOT putting up traffic cams all over the metro so you can see where traffic backups are. Why not FIX the friggin problems with the way you design interchanges and pinch points MDOT. Then I don't need to look at skycams.

 

Edited August 18, 2015 by GRDadof3

[x99]

Shorter x99 aka Yogi Berra: "Nobody goes downtown anymore.  It's too crowded."

Not at all.  My point is  that it isn't crowded, and does not need to be.  There is a flash of traffic for about two 30 minute periods.  There are also constant, intentional (and very fixable) backups on Division, and minor tie ups from buses.  Other than that, the roads are fairly empty most of the day except for special events.  Yet, the city administrators make it sound as if there is a huge traffic problem, and everyone needs to take a bike.  That's the messaging, and it is terrible and untrue.  Spending a rather minor $15 million (compared to the other ways they set fire to money) on a big, new ramp and dropping parking rates sends a message that you are open for business to all who want to come.  But they constantly send the opposite message.  It's stupid.  It is not a formula for success.

I want to see a message that says parking is plentiful and cheap, we're building more, we have four exits, there is very little traffic, we're only 15 minutes from where you live, and would love to have you.  That seems like a much better formula for growing a good downtown.  Eventually, you might actually get enough stuff here that it is worth waiting in line or taking the bus. 

[Jippy]

It's weird. I have never had a problem finding a parking spot downtown. Ever. Transit is a game of margins. Moving small percentages of the people away from SOV at peak times can lead to significant reductions in congestion. It is an exponential function. But I agree with X99 that messaging is key. We need to demonstrate that we are open for business and have ample parking for the choice driver....I would just deviate that there is always parking available it is just a matter of where and how the where is being communicated. This is also a matter of planning, planning for the time when there are twice as many people living downtown. Twice as many people visiting downtown. Twice as many workers downtown. If that also means twice as many cars, then there certainly is a diminished quality to what has been and is being created. 

[x99]

This is also a matter of planning, planning for the time when there are twice as many people living downtown. Twice as many people visiting downtown. Twice as many workers downtown. If that also means twice as many cars, then there certainly is a diminished quality to what has been and is being created. 

Not necessarily a diminished quality.  If you can support a couple of 25 story office towers, another 5,000 residents and decent shopping, you are going to have a much better quality to downtown even if the traffic doubles.  You only get that with more people, and you only get the people with more parking, near term. 

Salt Lake City put in 5,000 parking spaces and a shopping mall in the middle of downtown.  It's $2.00 for 3 hours.  Fort Worth put in thousands of spaces for Sundance Square (another huge shopping/retail project), which are free for up to 2.5 hours if you patronize a retailer, and free after 5PM and all weekend.  Instead of saying, "Hate cars, can't and won't accommodate them" (like Suzanne Schulz and Pam Ritsema) these cities said "We can do it". Then did it.  By constantly pushing "solutions" that 90% of the population does not want or dislikes, the city hall cabal is ensuring a diminished quality to downtown, because they ensure nothing will ever be created worth having, including an actual need for transit and other amenities.  It's madness.

Look at this from Ft. Worth.  It's genius:  http://www.dfwi.org/transportation/parking. "One of the most unexpected things about downtown Fort Worth is the abundance of free parking."  That's marketing that might get you so many people you can build a streetcar.  For now, I suppose we'll just keep building shopping centers in cornfields.  So stupid.

Edited August 19, 2015 by x99

[Jippy]

Totally agree with X99 that SLC is the city we should emulate for transportation policies and investments. 

sub 200,000 population / 1 million MSA / relatively low density / conservative religious base with a liberal center. Grand Rapids? Nope. Salt Lake City 

With all the demographic similarities they have over 100 miles of light rail, street cars, BRT, and commuter rail. Including (wait for it).....transit park and rides in the fringes!!!  Let's copy Salt Lake City!!!!

 

 

[x99]

Totally agree with X99 that SLC is the city we should emulate for transportation policies and investments. 

With all the demographic similarities they have over 100 miles of light rail, street cars, BRT, and commuter rail. Including (wait for it).....transit park and rides in the fringes!!!  Let's copy Salt Lake City!!!!

Yes, but realize that supporting that took five thousand new parking spaces and huge amounts of investment that are not on GR radar.  All of the infrastructure actually takes people to a dense, multi-faceted urban environment they want to visit, and will agree to be slightly inconvenienced to visit.  An hour in downtown GR (on an average day), and you'll be kicking a rock down the sidewalk.  If our brilliant leaders recognized the problem, there would have been tax breaks, backroom deals, and wheeling and dealing a plenty to get that outlet mall downtown.  There weren't, and that has been zero talk of fostering large scale retailing because they view it as impossible.  But if it is, so is multi-modal transit. 

Looking at SLC and other metro areas that have done this successfully, you quickly realize the need for real estate is enormous.  To put it "downtown", City Hall, the County Building, the post office and likely the federal building would have to be scrapped, unless some portion of them could be re-utilized.  Hopefully, existing parking, Fifth Third Center, and the Calder Building could be spared.   But something needs to go, because you have to go massively vertical somewhere.  Ottawa and all of the sidewalks would have to be torn up for sub-grade parking.  The other alternative is to leave that area to rot and stagnate and do it all south of Fulton, but then you're pulled away from the convention center, hotels, and existing transportation routes.  Getting Meijer and Amway to move substantial office space downtown would help, too (and perhaps they would, if downtown had something more to offer than their current office parks).

I seriously question whether anything smaller scale would ever be more than a bunch of piecemeal boutique shops that will never support a robust transit network.  It seems crazy, but until you build a real city, I don't see how all of this talk about "congestion" and "alternative modes" of transit is much more than wishful thinking.  All I see out my window are empty roads and empty parking spaces and no people, almost all of the day.

[Raildudes dad]

It's a different situation in SLC. It's hemmed in by mountains on the east and mountains and the Salt Lake on the west side. Development is limited to a relatively narrow corridor. Grand Rapids can develop 360 degrees from the center and traffic can enter and exit from many different corridors.

[Jippy]

It is true SLC MSA has mountains, but GR has a gigantic lake so that doesn't really negate the comparison. West Michigan has a lot more lakes and wetlands in general which shifts development towards itself.  In fact, Grand Rapids is 2.6 times more dense than SLC. 

X99 does bring up a good point regarding parking differentials. Based on my cursory search, downtown SLC has 32,000 parking spaces. GR has 20,000. Not sure how that differs based on the uses in each city. Regarding retail, SLC has a large urban mall that was constructed about 5 years ago. However, it was entirely funded by the Mormon development company. Not sure Tanger would have been the right fit for downtown. Wrong demographic. I truly believe retail will follow at the appropriate pace. I don't think we need a mega retail development. Urban Outfitters is often the first larger national retail that goes into places (other than the pharmacy and grocery) like DT GR....but it has to be part of a retail cluster. Michigan ST? West Side somewhere? Fulton and areas around St Mary seem to be areas that could evolve to be more retail centric. The core is not necessary the right place unless some serious demo occurred. Not sure how feasible that is over the next 10 years. 

I'm not opposed to more parking downtown, but don't think supply is the leading issue. It is a perception issue. It is a communication of parking issue. It is a parking policy issue. I like the idea of variable rates based on when we want more folks downtown, including if that means free/dollar an hour kind of deal at low-point times, but personally I really don't think existing rates are all that unreasonable. 

 

[x99]

It's a different situation in SLC. It's hemmed in by mountains on the east and mountains and the Salt Lake on the west side. Development is limited to a relatively narrow corridor. Grand Rapids can develop 360 degrees from the center and traffic can enter and exit from many different corridors.

I was looking at this on the map, and we are actually in a much narrower corridor with the Grand River on one side, and Heritage Hill and the Bellknap hill on the other, all topped off by a major freeway.  We have severe usable space limitations.  Couple that with weird height restrictions, the homeless shelters on Division (and good luck with that political hot potato), and you suddenly find yourself very hemmed in.  

pharmacy and grocery) like DT GR....but it has to be part of a retail cluster. Michigan ST? West Side somewhere? Fulton and areas around St Mary seem to be areas that could evolve to be more retail centric. The core is not necessary the right place unless some serious demo occurred. Not sure how feasible that is over the next 10 years. 

I'm not opposed to more parking downtown, but don't think supply is the leading issue. It is a perception issue. It is a communication of parking issue. It is a parking policy issue. I like the idea of variable rates based on when we want more folks downtown, including if that means free/dollar an hour kind of deal at low-point times, but personally I really don't think existing rates are all that unreasonable. 

SLC was also a different environment.  People came there to spend time there, and they were horrified about the loss of retailing from their downtown because they understood how crucial it was to the whole picture.  We gave up on it long ago.  Making downtown a denser and transit-rich environment hinges (in my view) on making it a shared-use, highly desirable environment.  And that needs to be in the core.  Putting retail out on the fringes isn't going to do all that much for downtown.  The best place for it is probably the spooky "dead zone" north of Lyon.  With a decent parking infrastructure already in place, you could get a decent head start by just moving the existing users out... And then just give it away with appropriate commitments.  Build the city (or at least have a plan), then build the transit. That's the key.  You can attempt to bring in lots of people, but to keep them they need amenities, and there is only really one good, easy answer to where in the core area.  Urban renewal was a massive land grab, and they're going to have to give some of it back to finish the job...

[jas49503]

 

I'm not opposed to more parking downtown, but don't think supply is the leading issue. It is a perception issue. It is a communication of parking issue. It is a parking policy issue. I like the idea of variable rates based on when we want more folks downtown, including if that means free/dollar an hour kind of deal at low-point times, but personally I really don't think existing rates are all that unreasonable. 

 

I was driving around downtown Heidelberg today and noticed numerous signs that indicated the location along with the number of open spots in all the nearby parking garages.  something like this would go a long way towards improving utilization of the currently available spots.  I would agree that there are plenty of spots but if they are hard to find then there may as well be no spots at all because people become frustrated and decide to say "screw it, let's go to Outback on 28th street. I know I'll be able to park 10 feet from the entrance"

[GR8scott]

SLC also has 12 lane freeways in rural areas to go along with commuter rail and light rail, they are planning ahead in all transportation options and apparently have the money to do so, I think the Olympics supported a lot of the infrastructure development there 

[x99]

There was another Rapid article the GRPress recently.  http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2015/08/1_year_later_silver_lines_futu.html. Contrary to the headline, the Silver Line hasn't attracted much if any of a ridership, if judged by initial projections.  Ridership is less than half of projections, and seems to have gone flat.  I speculated back in April that they might have added around 600 new riders. While it's somewhat hard to confirm, I think the ridership and productivity report at https://www.ridetherapid.org/assets/files/q8/07-april-2015ridershipandproductivityreport.pdf essentially confirms that.  Actually, 600 new riders might be optimistic, but with a generalized decline in ridership across the entire system, it's somewhat hard to unravel which routes other than Route 1 were plundered for riders and to what extent.  Still,  I don't think it's unfair to speculate that the cost for each new person hitching a ride so far is around $80,000 to $100,000.00, all things considered.  That's frightening.  And farebox recovery on Silver Line is about 29% (in April), so it costs additional money to keep it moving.  

All of this begs a question that the Rapid should answer:  Why not extend the Silverline route to cover the southern end of Route 1 and discontinue Route 1?  Why keep running two routes when both are highly underutilized and largely redundant? 

[Raildudes dad]

 

All of this begs a question that the Rapid should answer:  Why not extend the Silverline route to cover the southern end of Route 1 and discontinue Route 1?  Why keep running two routes when both are highly underutilized and largely redundant? 

That's exactly what should have been done if they just have to have a BRT.  However, neither Byron or Gaines Township belong to the ITP so don't collect the 1.47 mills for the ITP millage.

[GRJohn]

I wonder if the Tanger Outlets will encourage Byron Center to join ITP or at least contract for a single line like Alpine Township does now.  It'd be great to have a line that goes to the outlets for people that shop and work there.  Might help a little with the traffic.

[GRDadof3]

I wonder if the Tanger Outlets will encourage Byron Center to join ITP or at least contract for a single line like Alpine Township does now.  It'd be great to have a line that goes to the outlets for people that shop and work there.  Might help a little with the traffic.

Kind of defeats the purpose of Bus Rapid Transit if you veer off from the main artery that far (more than a mile). There are already too many stops on that line. 

[x99]

Kind of defeats the purpose of Bus Rapid Transit if you veer off from the main artery that far (more than a mile). There are already too many stops on that line. 

Then there's another simple solution: A small twist on what GRJohn mentioned:  Discontinue Route 1 and negotiate with Meijer/KMart/Tanger Outlets to kick in for a localized small bus or trolley service.  The townships aren't goign to pay for it since their people are not using it and they get nothing out of it.  They could also loop Route 10 down to pick up the tail of Route 1.  Either option would get farebox recovery rates on Silver Line to a point where it might be the most cost-effective route they have going.  That's a win right there. They do not run two sets of 75% empty buses up and down the same 5 mile stretch all day long anywhere else in the system.  This is purely a political ploy.  After a year, it's pretty clear the ridership to run Silver Line at a reasonable capacity has not materialized and probably never will.  We're stuck with Silver Line, but the resources now being poured down the Route 1 drain could and should be used to improve or add service elsewhere.

[Allison Slater]

Discontinuing Route 1 would cut off a lot of people who live off of Division a couple blocks in the areas between the Silverline stops.