Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[54equalsunity]

How/why does the rapid still not have an app. Also is the wave out yet? Rode the bus monday aft and had to get money out an ATM at a convenience store to get change for that to hop on the bus. Am I being to picky here? 

Does anyone use Google Maps? I don't ride the bus too often, but when I have Maps has worked well However, I do also have Transit installed. It's a quality app. What I would like to see is smartphone integration for the Wave card. I saw it advertised when they rolled out the system. Any word on when that is coming?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[organsnyder]

5 hours ago, 54equalsunity said:

Does anyone use Google Maps? I don't ride the bus too often, but when I have Maps has worked well However, I do also have Transit installed. It's a quality app. What I would like to see is smartphone integration for the Wave card. I saw it advertised when they rolled out the system. Any word on when that is coming?

I use Google Maps directions to plan trips (when using an unfamiliar route), and Transit to get real-time status.

I haven't heard anything about a smartphone app. That could certainly make things easier for visitors. With the contact-less readers, it seems to me that they could also accept tap-to-pay credit cards, Apple/Google/Samsung pay, etc. That would be really nice, though the credit card fees for those small transactions might be killer.

[Winston1206]

I messaged The Rapid on Facebook asking about an app (they mention one on the Wave website). Got this response:

Hi, thanks for writing. At this time, we don't have a roll out date. We aren't love where it is in the testing phase right now in terms of use experience. We appreciate your feedback in regard to the mobile ticket option!

[whitemice]

On 6/13/2019 at 1:56 PM, MJLO said:

I've never thought about it I've always just loaded my cards when ever I am visiting and need to

Same.  I have a WAVE card (the RAPID) and a Ventra card (CTA/PACE/Metra).

Both are set to auto-load; and I never think about them.

The only time I have used the Ventra app is to purchase Metra (commuter rail) tickets as those are zone based and not tap-on.

[ZAP!]

A largely complete Laker Line station I happened to pass by. (Fulton and Straight)

[GRDadof3]

13 hours ago, ZAP! said:

A largely complete Laker Line station I happened to pass by. (Fulton and Straight)

A lot of the inbound ones are to about this stage. They're ripping up the entire parking lot at the Kirkhof Center for the new articulated buses to turn around and for new stations.

[joeDowntown]

4 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

A lot of the inbound ones are to about this stage. They're ripping up the entire parking lot at the Kirkhof Center for the new articulated buses to turn around and for new stations.

They’re pretty far along on both sides that run under 131. Not quite as far along. As the one above, but maybe just a week or so behind. 

Joe

[organsnyder]

Disappointed that they went with the same design as the Silver Line stations. Consistency is good for branding, I guess, but the design is terrible at providing any kind of shelter. Perhaps it's an intentional homeless-hostile design decision?

[GrSportsGuy]

Well they’re here. Don’t really understand the need when we have the Dash buses. I guess it’s just another step in our need to be considered “hip”.

https://www.woodtv.com/news/grand-rapids/autonomous-vans-hit-grand-rapids-streets/

[joeDowntown]

1 hour ago, GrSportsGuy said:

Well they’re here. Don’t really understand the need when we have the Dash buses. I guess it’s just another step in our need to be considered “hip”.

https://www.woodtv.com/news/grand-rapids/autonomous-vans-hit-grand-rapids-streets/

Autonomous vehicles are coming whether people like it or not. I think it's pretty interesting that Grand Rapids is getting their feet wet, and May Mobility is getting some good real world data. I'm hoping the Universities are collaborating with May / the city.

Joe

[Allison Slater]

14 hours ago, GrSportsGuy said:

Well they’re here. Don’t really understand the need when we have the Dash buses. I guess it’s just another step in our need to be considered “hip”.

https://www.woodtv.com/news/grand-rapids/autonomous-vans-hit-grand-rapids-streets/

Because it's more about working on future technologies than it is adding more buses.

[whitemice]

On 7/26/2019 at 5:47 AM, tSlater said:

Because it's more about working on future technologies than it is adding more buses. 

This.  It is a technology trial; it doesn't add any utility.

It also provides people a first-hand experience of how awkward and uncomfortable this technology will be.

[GRDadof3]

23 hours ago, whitemice said:

This.  It is a technology trial; it doesn't add any utility.

It also provides people a first-hand experience of how awkward and uncomfortable this technology will be.

I don't understand why they have a driver. Doesn't that pretty much defeat the purpose of having them? 

[wingbert]

2 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

I don't understand why they have a driver. Doesn't that pretty much defeat the purpose of having them? 

I believe that is an “attendant” who is there to take over in the event of a problem.

[RegalTDP]

I also think the attendant is there to keep passengers at ease in the initial stages of this trial.  I wonder if they'll phase out the attendant later on in the trial as people get more used to it.

[BLUESCRUBS]

Proposal to establish regional bus line gets support from Grand Rapids metro group.

https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2019/08/proposal-to-establish-regional-bus-line-gets-support-from-grand-rapids-metro-group.html 

Really positive news!! Great that Ottawa county communities are on board.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, BLUESCRUBS said:

Proposal to establish regional bus line gets support from Grand Rapids metro group.

https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2019/08/proposal-to-establish-regional-bus-line-gets-support-from-grand-rapids-metro-group.html 

Really positive news!! Great that Ottawa county communities are on board.

This is pretty exciting.  If i commuted to GR from Holland I would definitely take this.

If the Holland stop was a little closer to the beach it would be great for day trips.

According to my calculations it would be about $3.28/ride, not bad at all.

[Allison Slater]

12 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

I don't understand why they have a driver. Doesn't that pretty much defeat the purpose of having them? 

There are several levels of automation, and we essentially have to pass through each one.

Level 0 - No automation.
Level 1 - Extremely limited automation that still requires input from driver. Like maintaining speed, or staying inside a lane.
Level 2 - Limited automation that allows the driver to take hands off of controls in specific situations, like automated highway driving. This is where most Teslas are.
Level 3 - Automated driving. Able to handle most situations but still requires a driver to monitor in case it fails. May be area-limited and need driver input in unusual situations. This should be where these automated buses are: Level 3, although they could be entering Level 4 territory.
Level 4 - Fully automated and can do entire trips by itself, but may not be able to handle unusual situations.
Level 5 - Full automation at or beyond a human driver's capability, including unusual situations.

Right now Level 4 is the holy grail of automated driving. Everyone's still at Level 3, and are having difficulty reaching level 4. In order to reach Level 4, the automated driving systems need to continue to learn and collect more data. In order to do that, more driving and road miles are needed at levels 2 and 3. That's likely what they're doing with these buses. Additionally, there's likely some regulatory laws preventing them from going driverless even if they reached Level 4, and it's trials like these which will help them convince lawmakers to allow driverless buses.

[organsnyder]

Good explanation. Though I'd argue that Tesla is really marketing a Level 1 system as being Level 2 (leading to three known deaths so far).

[GRDadof3]

On 8/1/2019 at 8:09 PM, tSlater said:

There are several levels of automation, and we essentially have to pass through each one.

Level 0 - No automation.
Level 1 - Extremely limited automation that still requires input from driver. Like maintaining speed, or staying inside a lane.
Level 2 - Limited automation that allows the driver to take hands off of controls in specific situations, like automated highway driving. This is where most Teslas are.
Level 3 - Automated driving. Able to handle most situations but still requires a driver to monitor in case it fails. May be area-limited and need driver input in unusual situations. This should be where these automated buses are: Level 3, although they could be entering Level 4 territory.
Level 4 - Fully automated and can do entire trips by itself, but may not be able to handle unusual situations.
Level 5 - Full automation at or beyond a human driver's capability, including unusual situations.

Right now Level 4 is the holy grail of automated driving. Everyone's still at Level 3, and are having difficulty reaching level 4. In order to reach Level 4, the automated driving systems need to continue to learn and collect more data. In order to do that, more driving and road miles are needed at levels 2 and 3. That's likely what they're doing with these buses. Additionally, there's likely some regulatory laws preventing them from going driverless even if they reached Level 4, and it's trials like these which will help them convince lawmakers to allow driverless buses.

Interesting!

[Allison Slater]

On 8/3/2019 at 9:24 AM, organsnyder said:

Good explanation. Though I'd argue that Tesla is really marketing a Level 1 system as being Level 2 (leading to three known deaths so far).

No, the problem in those cases are the driver stops monitoring the vehicle. They get complacent after many times of it working fine, start reading Facebook on their phone, and then bam! It's people who are treating their level 2 automation as though it's level 4 or 5. The driver needs to monitor the road fully until level 4 in all situations. A Tesla can fully drive itself on highways (it both maintains speed and keeps a lane, which means it exceeds level 1 -- it also can change lanes to overtake slower vehicles and navigate on/off ramps and interchanges), and a recent update gave it the ability to handle stoplights as well iirc (so it should be able to handle the beltline now), but it still must be monitored by the driver at all times because it's not perfect yet, and the driver cannot begin to ignore the road until level 4.

Edited August 5, 2019 by tSlater

[organsnyder]

On 8/5/2019 at 7:18 AM, tSlater said:

No, the problem in those cases are the driver stops monitoring the vehicle. They get complacent after many times of it working fine, start reading Facebook on their phone, and then bam! It's people who are treating their level 2 automation as though it's level 4 or 5. The driver needs to monitor the road fully until level 4 in all situations. A Tesla can fully drive itself on highways (it both maintains speed and keeps a lane, which means it exceeds level 1 -- it also can change lanes to overtake slower vehicles and navigate on/off ramps and interchanges), and a recent update gave it the ability to handle stoplights as well iirc (so it should be able to handle the beltline now), but it still must be monitored by the driver at all times because it's not perfect yet, and the driver cannot begin to ignore the road until level 4.

Fair enough. Though by marketing the system as "Autopilot"—along with not monitoring the driver to ensure their eyes remain on the road—Tesla is encouraging their customers into dangerous habits.

Level 2 can be extremely dangerous. Expecting drivers to re-engage within a split-second after minutes/hours of inactivity is a recipe for disaster. Even commercial aircraft autopilot systems are designed to allow multiple seconds for pilots to retake control when needed—and that's for pilots with strict training, licensing, and work hours requirements. On the ground, we can't have the luxury of multiple-second recovery times.

[MJLO]

They are filling in the rest of the bridge deck pretty fast now.  

EDIT:  just realized I posted this in transit and not road construction.  Sorry y’all don’t normally post from my phone.

[whitemice]

On 8/8/2019 at 7:18 AM, organsnyder said:

Level 2 can be extremely dangerous. Expecting drivers to re-engage within a split-second after minutes/hours of inactivity is a recipe for disaster.

This!  If we took safety seriously Level 2 wouldn't even be a thing.  This is Distracted Driving Enablement.

[Allison Slater]

We've been re-engaging cruise control for decades now without too much of a problem, and if memory serves these Level 2 Teslas have a much higher safety rating than the average.