Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[grcitydog]

What else that would be cool would be to use the current pedestrian crossings over the river for streetcars..they were once rail crossings, so why not put them back to their original use?

[Allison Slater]

I could picture pedestrians not paying attention and being hit by a streetcar.

Blue Bridge and the pedestrian walkway leading up to I don't think would be good for both pedestrian and rail uses, and the blue bridge is valuable as a pedestrian spot, and I'd hate to see the pedestrian access lost there.

The one outside Amway I'm not sure about, but would likely have to cut through the park on the west side.

I wouldn't mind seeing the 6th street bridge being converted to such a use.. although it would be nice to see a new car bridge in the area. It's simply not wide enough to handle 2 lanes of traffic, yet it's not a 1-way either. Pretty scary to go down somtimes when there's people using it who aren't familiar with downtown.

Didn't I hear once that the rail bridge south of the S-Curve is unused? If so, that could be reserved for a potential expansion or loop completion. Run a loop from central station, west along Welathy, with a stop at the Amtrak, then across the bridge, following that current line, up to bridge, then across to meet at Monroe.

[GRDadof3]

Some more interesting information regarding Portland's Streetcar system (a separate system from the MAX Light Rail System).

Funding

2.4 mile loop system, cost of $56 Million. You'll notice only $500,000 came from federal funding.

Circulator Map Which has had 1.6 miles added on in three phases to the original 2.4 (all between 2001 and 2005).

Maybe our city leaders are looking at the $14 Million they are set to receive from the feds for the initial study to use it for a more aggressive plan?

[Veloise]

...

That is about the coolest thing I've ever seen, to see another organization spreading the work we do here.

Nice job Rizzo!

I just told them to mention where they found the pics, and suggested that this might help make it happen!

ETA: try to help, things get worse...they added a link to my e-mail address. I sent them one to the first page of this thread.

Jeff, any better ideas?

Edited December 18, 2006 by Veloise

[monsoon]

.....

2.4 mile loop system, cost of $56 Million. You'll notice only $500,000 came from federal funding.

....

That is because the FTA does not like to fund streetcar lines. It's tough to justify their usefulness vs cost to implement. They don't attract a lot of ridership over the much cheaper city bus. And they have other problems as well such as if you only put one track on a street, then you are going to have one way service on that street which means the return trip is difficult. Furthermore if the routes that you select don't already have significant ridership from bus traffic, then don't expect that putting in a streetcar is going to generate traffic, because it doesn't.

[GRDadof3]

I agree that a circulator loop streetcar won't generate a lot of ridership over busses. However, it may accomplish a couple of things: get people of GR interested in and familiar with modern mass transit systems, serve a similar purpose as the current downtown DASH system when future lines are linked up to it or commuter rail is added to the ITP station, and as I mentioned earlier, move people from the increasingly top heavy Michigan Hill employment area down to the CBD for dining/retail.

Also, if the loop serves the Monroe North area, it can help move the new residents in that area down to the CBD.

Plus, economic development officials can splash pictures of it all over their brochures.

We shall see. Details have not been made public yet.

[AlexPKeaton]

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking, this could be a great DASH replacement. I don't think one-way lines would be a big issue downtown because the other direction would only be a couple blocks over. I would also like to see two loops: one that reaches up into the Monroe North area down to the transit hub, and one that goes over to GVSU and the DASH lots and up to Michigan Hill.

[monsoon]

I hear what you are saying but putting a transit car on rails is not a magic pill that causes instant revivals of towns. There are plenty of examples where building transit completely failed to do this and because of it the line and it's supporters were castigated in the press which ended any further development.

I think rather than looking at what has succeeded, you need to look at what has failed.

[GRDadof3]

I hear what you are saying but putting a transit car on rails is not a magic pill that causes instant revivals of towns. There are plenty of examples where building transit completely failed to do this and because of it the line and it's supporters were castigated in the press which ended any further development.

I think rather than looking at what has succeeded, you need to look at what has failed.

Definitely they would be remiss if they didn't check out streetcar systems that have failed and why they have failed (poorly planned, over budget, poorly marketed, poorly structured financially?) I had read opinions that the Salt Lake streetcar (they call it light rail, but in essence it runs in the same manner as Portland's streetcar) was poorly done, but then I read recently that support for expanded light rail service and a sales tax to pay for it received huge support in Salt Lake.

Are there streetcar lines in the U.S. built in the past 20-30 years that have not created momentum for further mass transit expansion (utter failures basically)? Memphis or New Orleans maybe?

I don't think anyone is banking on this to revive downtown Grand Rapids, because it doesn't really need "revival". There's one retail corridor downtown that could use a swift kick though. But it would be another feather in the cap if pulled off successfully. And based on the "money consciousness" of our city leaders, I don't see them jumping into this without an exhaustive (and frustrating) analysis.

[AlexPKeaton]

For a failure we only need to look across the state to Detroit's people mover. It only gets used during the auto show and Red Wings games.

One advantage I can see with streetcars over the existing DASH bus system is that people unfamiliar with downtown can see the rails and where they go, and figure the system out. If you work downtown you probably know about the DASH system, but the people we're trying to attract downtown won't know about it much less how to use it.

And as someone has already mentioned, this could be the "foot in the door" that will help sell the region on a more comprehensive light rail system in the future. So we'd better not drop the ball. If we have a fiasco like Detroit's people mover then nobody will want to touch mass transit for another 30 years.

[GRDadof3]

For a failure we only need to look across the state to Detroit's people mover. It only gets used during the auto show and Red Wings games.

One advantage I can see with streetcars over the existing DASH bus system is that people unfamiliar with downtown can see the rails and where they go, and figure the system out. If you work downtown you probably know about the DASH system, but the people we're trying to attract downtown won't know about it much less how to use it.

And as someone has already mentioned, this could be the "foot in the door" that will help sell the region on a more comprehensive light rail system in the future. So we'd better not drop the ball. If we have a fiasco like Detroit's people mover then nobody will want to touch mass transit for another 30 years.

Actually nb, that's not true about the ridership numbers for the people mover. According to Wiki and Answers.com (not always great sources), ridership has fluctuated from 700,000 riders/year when it was closed down for two months in 1999, to 1.4 million riders the first 6 months of 2006, which probably equals about 5000 - 7000 riders/day. Portland's Streetcar has a daily ridership of 9000. Not too far off. I would say as a downtown circulator, it IS successful. Problem is, it didn't spur any further mass transit lines, and it has a perception of being a failure.

In addition, the people mover was built in 1987 when downtown Detroit was not what it is today. I've never ridden on it, but I have seen it come through Cobo Hall on its loop and it looks kind of silly. Plus, I remember many stories of the buildings along the people mover having fake facades and murals to hide the fact that they were vacant. A properly placed streetcar in Grand Rapids would go through relatively clean and redeveloped areas. It would not be used to "revitalize" areas, but bring additional investment.

It's not the most fantastic start to a mass transit system here, but it's a start. I'm not going to come out against it at this point.

[monsoon]

If you want to see a more significant failure and in a city closer to GR's size and is also growing greatly look at the Jacksonville Skyway. It is fine example of the mistake of thinking that if you build it, then they will come. Transit doesn't work that way.

Any plan that assumes people will ride a streetcar when they wont ride a bus in the same area, is going to fail.

[Raildudes dad]

Some more interesting information regarding Portland's Streetcar system (a separate system from the MAX Light Rail System).

Funding

2.4 mile loop system, cost of $56 Million. You'll notice only $500,000 came from federal funding.

Looks like $5.5 million in funds to me. There was $5 million Federal Transportation funds and $500,00 from HUD.

[Raildudes dad]

Didn't I hear once that the rail bridge south of the S-Curve is unused? If so, that could be reserved for a potential expansion or loop completion. Run a loop from central station, west along Welathy, with a stop at the Amtrak, then across the bridge, following that current line, up to bridge, then across to meet at Monroe.

The RR bridge south of the S-curve is used every day by Amtrak, CSX, NS, & Maquette Rail. The RR bridge south of Wealthy is unused. It was orignally built for the GR - Kalamazoo interurban

[Rizzo]

Problem is -- both those systems mentioned are elevated, and I believe one is Monorail. This is a streetcar concept. One could argue that elevation of rail can hurt perception. There are so many factors between the concepts. I won't argue the validity or successfulness of a line downtown.

I see a downtown circulatory as a way to introduce the concept of doing it alone (via local public/private dollars) and as an investment in image.

Something tells me that we as a metro are going to be comprised of BRT systems all "hooking up" to a rail circulatory. Its not something I envisioned or think highly of.

I would like to remain optimistic.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Rizzo

[AlexPKeaton]

The people mover was also damaged when Hudson's was demolished, and nobody cared to fix it for an entire year. If that doesn't scream "success" then I don't know what does.

Edited December 18, 2006 by AlexPKeaton

[GRDadof3]

I had forgotten about that nb. Yeesh.

The use of the DASH and bus systems downtown are pretty successful, and Portland was able to increase ridership by 30% over the bus system by replacing it with a streetcar system. This would be an enhancement to an award-winning system that has seen year-over-year skyrocketing ridership increases.

I'm with Rizzo and I'll remain optimistic, and if they start having public forums looking for input, I'll certainly participate.

Hmmm, here's the Jacksonville Skyway in all its glory. I just don't see how an elevated system right through an urban environment is friendly at all. Just like ground-floor treatment being so important to making a street lively, how do these create a stimulating environ for pedestrians?

and wow, look at this freakishly weird people mover in Irving Texas. Wasn't there something like this that connected Fairlane Town Center and the Hyatt Regency in Dearborn? edit: yes, yes it was. You can find anything on-line: http://mallsofamerica.blogspot.com/2006/12...own-center.html

with pillars to nowhere that were never completed:

With projects such as these, I can see why some in the public have a certain disdain for public transportation.

http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/Jacksonville/

[Veloise]

For a failure we only need to look across the state to Detroit's people mover. It only gets used during the auto show and Red Wings games....

And the parades, fireworks, activities DT, workday lunch hours, weekends...I found a mention that the PM is in the top 20-ranked "things to do."

Someone mentioned the faux facades. That's happened a few times, starting with the Republican convention (1980?).

Going by memory (can't find the backstory right now), the PM was supposed to be the beginning of a light rail system in Detroit. Federal funds. I am recalling something about a city-suburb clash and petty bickering (surprise!) that negated the remainder of the grant. The PM opened in '87 so this would have been started in the early 80's.

And yes, it was damaged in the Hudson's implosion. Rather than being a complete circuit, it became an out-and-back run. Took quite a while to repair (keep in mind this is an elevated concrete track). This happened again with the deconstruction of the bunker out front of the Ren Cen (which was actively being rebuilt while I was there, '03). The Ren Cen station was closed and also completely rebuilt.

As a sometime rider (perhaps 5 times ever?), it's really cool to be elevated above the streets and see all the interesting vistas. One curve by Cobo swings out over the river and convinces you to check for your PFD. During the holiday lighting season the ride is especially neat. (They will leave the lights up through the Auto Show in January. If you have never been, that might be a good time to visit.) Also, the PM stations are beautiful. Special artwork in each one, all done by local artists. I did not find the PM useful for commuting, but the nodes weren't convenient for me.

With all the elevated infrastructure, the city and the agency have a strong committment to keeping it going. Streetcar tracks would cost a lot, but not as much as a PM, and if the ruling hands got tired of them, just repave and they are gone. (That'll happen when we all have our personal hovercraft with remote-controlled free air space parking.)

[monsoon]

I think dismissing the experiences in Jacksonville just because it was elevated means you are going to make the same mistakes that were made there. It did not fail because it was an elevated system. Rail systems in Florida tend to be elevated because of the chances of flooding there. Miami's heavy rail system for example is elevated.

BTW, the system shown above for Dallas was a private system used to connect some office buildings together. It has no bearing on this discussion. There is an elevated system in Morgantown, WVA that has a daily ridership of over 30,000 people and this is in a town of 56K. They can be made to work, but don't assume they are going to work just because they are built.

A streetcar proposal is going to be a tough thing to pull off in GR because as I said above, there is not much advantage to them and they cost a lot of money to build. Charlotte had two streetcar proposals. One was a circulator route and the other was a 10 mile long route. The circulator route has been canceled because they could not justify the cost over the benefit, and the 10 mile route has been delayed for at least a decade as city buses serve this route really well.

[DwntwnGeo]

I agree that a circulator loop streetcar won't generate a lot of ridership over busses. However, it may accomplish a couple of things: get people of GR interested in and familiar with modern mass transit systems, serve a similar purpose as the current downtown DASH system when future lines are linked up to it or commuter rail is added to the ITP station, and as I mentioned earlier, move people from the increasingly top heavy Michigan Hill employment area down to the CBD for dining/retail.

With some talk about the DASH systems, here are the three routes it currently has in the CBD.

[GRDadof3]

I think dismissing the experiences in Jacksonville just because it was elevated means you are going to make the same mistakes that were made there. It did not fail because it was an elevated system. Rail systems in Florida tend to be elevated because of the chances of flooding there. Miami's heavy rail system for example is elevated.

BTW, the system shown above for Dallas was a private system used to connect some office buildings together. It has no bearing on this discussion. There is an elevated system in Morgantown, WVA that has a daily ridership of over 30,000 people and this is in a town of 56K. They can be made to work, but don't assume they are going to work just because they are built.

I have my doubts a streetcar proposal is going to go anywhere in GR because as I said above, they is not much advantage to them and they cost a lot of money to build.

Just to clarify, I'm not at all involved with the effort to get a streetcar or light rail in GR, so I won't have any bearing on the decision making. The effort is being undertaken by the Grand Valley Metro Council (which represents basically every city and township in a six county area), the Interurban Transit Partnership (comprised of 11 municipalities in the metro), Disability Advocates, a couple of other organizations, and several local members of city and state government. I'm just a spectator basically. They've been very quiet about it, and the only way we've heard about it is through insiders. It may be to figure out if it is worth it before they have to put it to public scrutiny.

They may decide that moving people from one end of downtown to another is not a good idea and far too expensive. The DASH system (shuttles into downtown from outlying lots) works well and is very successful because there is a lack of parking downtown, and they're filling a big need to move people from one place to another.

I too wonder how many people are going to want to get on at Monroe and 6th and ride to Monroe and Market or Fulton. It sort of defies logic. However, if it were a first phase of a multi-phase project, then that might be something.

I looked up the WV line and it has an average daily ridership of 15,000/day. It serves a big purpose in moving college students from WVU's campus to downtown, as well as from one end of the sprawling campus to another, with 80% of ridership happening between just two stations in the times between scheduled classes.

http://www.cities21.org/morgantown_TRB_111504.pdf

[monsoon]

My comments were not designed to be taken personally by anyone here. You are correct about the Morgantown system's ridership. I misssed that as their record daily ridership is about 30K. The school is the major industry in that city and much more than just students ride it as it also serves to bring employees of the school to their job and it also connects to their medical center and downtown. It's an amazing system for such a small town.

The point of bringing it up is that it is an elevated system that works and because of that the failures in Jacksonville should be considered when looking at what to do with a transit plan. I will say again that Streetcars only work on corridors that already have very high bus ridership. If the conditions are not there to make that happen first, the addition of a streetcar system isn't going to change that but you will be paying upwards of $35M/mile or more to find that out.

[AlexPKeaton]

How busy are the DASH busses? I've never ridden them because I don't work downtown. If they were packed full all the time then maybe it would be easier to justify the cost of a streetcar system.

And yes, right now I don't see a huge demand for transit from North Monroe down to Fulton really. It's close enough to walk if you need to make that trip. (So are the DASH lots I suppose.) One of the complaints about the people mover is that the stops are all within walking distance so there's no point to using it. Maybe we run the same risk here with the north-south option.

Still, east-west from the DASH lots up to the hospital stuff would probably see heavy use, and even more so once all the construction is complete. How about a route running from the west side DASH lots, up Michigan (if possible) to College, down to Fulton to GVSU and north back up to Bridge?

[GRDadof3]

How busy are the DASH busses? I've never ridden them because I don't work downtown. If they were packed full all the time then maybe it would be easier to justify the cost of a streetcar system.

And yes, right now I don't see a huge demand for transit from North Monroe down to Fulton really. It's close enough to walk if you need to make that trip. (So are the DASH lots I suppose.) One of the complaints about the people mover is that the stops are all within walking distance so there's no point to using it. Maybe we run the same risk here with the north-south option.

Still, east-west from the DASH lots up to the hospital stuff would probably see heavy use, and even more so once all the construction is complete. How about a route running from the west side DASH lots, up Michigan (if possible) to College, down to Fulton to GVSU and north back up to Bridge?

I hear they're pretty nice, and six new buses were purchased in 2005. There are about 2000 parking spaces in the DASH system, and I think the DASH averages about 1200 - 1400 riders/day (2400 rides per day). There are also several hundred spots in the GVSU lot on Lake Michigan Drive that is serviced by "DASH to the Hill". The DASH system is a huge success and has grown about 17% a year since 1998. (That's from a quick online search.)

The more I think about it, leaving out Michigan Hill and the DASH lots on the West side is very short-sighted. Is Michigan Hill really too steep? What about going underground in that area? Or into the lower floors of the new Spectrum project?

[DwntwnGeo]

The more I think about it, leaving out Michigan Hill and the DASH lots on the West side is very short-sighted. Is Michigan Hill really too steep? What about going underground in that area? Or into the lower floors of the new Spectrum project?

Maybe there is something more to this.... they(MDOT etc) are going to rebuild Michigan Street starting next year. Maybe they can build something that will work with a transit system the city (and others) are looking at in Portland. Whether it be partially underground or changing the slope somehow to make it work. Maybe the section of the loop along Michigan will be a cable car? Do they make an interchangable street & cable car? (ok, back to reality).