Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[GaryP]

I'll just keep throwing my streetcar loop ideas up here and you guys can tell me which parts you like and don't like:

I'm worried that a lot of these routes would be overlapping the BRT downtown loop, which went east to St. Mary's and Spectrum, then Michigan to Monroe, and South on Monroe eventually back to Central Station. How about sending the street car North on Division, West on Leonard, South on Broadway, and east on Wealthy.

[GRDadof3]

I'm worried that a lot of these routes would be overlapping the BRT downtown loop, which went east to St. Mary's and Spectrum, then Michigan to Monroe, and South on Monroe eventually back to Central Station. How about sending the street car North on Division, West on Leonard, South on Broadway, and east on Wealthy.

I've thought about that GaryP, but I think the issue with that is if you're at GVSU West side (for instance) and want to go to the core or the hill, you have to go way around 1/2 the loop to get to your destination. I think I'm thinking the wrong way about a "loop". Maybe it needs to be more like a big "cross". I assume (and forgive my ignorance) that streetcars can go forward or reverse on a single track? They don't have to turn around?

Another thing too GaryP, and why I have a difficult time understanding the BRT loop up the hill, is it doesn't take any students from GVSU or their big ramp to the hill. That alone might carry 800 - 1000 students/day when MSU gets settled in.

[foo_gr]

I really wonder if the BRT on Division would gain anything. Buses already run up and down Division, so I doubt that a BRT would make any difference.

I was reading an article about Cincinnati's streetcar line, where the idea is to link the downtown with the (disadvantaged) Over-the-Rhine neighborhood. Quote:

"The project team includes Charles Hales, the "father" of the highly successful streetcar system in Portland, Ore., who's now a principal with HDR's Portland office.

The Portland system has spurred billions of dollars of economic development over the last five years, most of which is within a block or so of the streetcar line."

It seems to me that Division is one of the most obvious areas that is in need of redevelopment, and that the North Monroe area is doing pretty good currently. To quote the same article:

Architect Denny Dellinger, owner of the former Jackson Brewery building and a founder of the Brewery District community development organization in Over-the-Rhine, said his group supports a streetcar line because of its ability to stimulate economic development.

"Developers aren't going to build a new development on a bus line, but they will along a streetcar line," he said. The rail in the ground makes all the difference. "That's a permanent, significant improvement that's not going to move," he said.

"I think it would just change things overnight. I really do."

Finally, I think if we're going to commit to a street car system, we ought to do so with the idea of expanding it over time, rather than making it a one off. Perhaps first up and down Division, and then Wealthy to Eastown, then to John Ball Park Zoo, then to Creston, etc....

Once upon a time, Grand Rapids supported a streetcar system with less density than we have now. It seems like we could really make such a system work.

City Studies Streetcar System (Cincinnati Enquirer)

Edited January 25, 2007 by xopher

[Veloise]

Everything I have read/heard about loops is that they should be only be 1-3 blocks inbetween eachother. The Portland route shows this very well. GRDad, on your GR map above, are you suggesting that your loop be in one direction (meaning only clockwise/counter clockwise) are you are suggesting a track system with cars going both ways. I don't think your loop will work with just one track in one circular direction because your loop is too many blocks apart. I dont know if the streets you highlight will support two tracks for bi-directions.

Dad's running up Monroe Center, and it would not make sense to have that become a bi-directional line for a streetcar.

(Clockwise arrows, Jeff? And perhaps a spur along Pearl?)

[GaryP]

I assume (and forgive my ignorance) that streetcars can go forward or reverse on a single track? They don't have to turn around?

If the street cars go both ways you can only have one car on the track.

Another thing too GaryP, and why I have a difficult time understanding the BRT loop up the hill, is it doesn't take any students from GVSU or their big ramp to the hill. That alone might carry 800 - 1000 students/day when MSU gets settled in.

I guess they would have to transfer or cross the river to get to Monroe. I don't think there is going to be a way to make everyone happy with the first route. I think the system will be greatly improved with a few additional routes. Imagine starting with the BRT then adding the street car loop that I mentioned and getting rider numbers up and coming back in 5 years with another BRT along Lake Michigan Drive and another on Plainfield that both end at Fulton and Division. That way we'd have an outer loop that encourages development and several routes into the heart of downtown.

[GRDadof3]

I really wonder if the BRT on Division would gain anything. Buses already run up and down Division, so I doubt that a BRT would make any difference.

I was reading an article about Cincinnati's streetcar line, where the idea is to link the downtown with the (disadvantaged) Over-the-Rhine neighborhood. Quote:

"The project team includes Charles Hales, the "father" of the highly successful streetcar system in Portland, Ore., who's now a principal with HDR's Portland office.

The Portland system has spurred billions of dollars of economic development over the last five years, most of which is within a block or so of the streetcar line."

It seems to me that Division is one of the most obvious areas that is in need of redevelopment, and that the North Monroe area is doing pretty good currently. To quote the same article:

Architect Denny Dellinger, owner of the former Jackson Brewery building and a founder of the Brewery District community development organization in Over-the-Rhine, said his group supports a streetcar line because of its ability to stimulate economic development.

"Developers aren't going to build a new development on a bus line, but they will along a streetcar line," he said. The rail in the ground makes all the difference. "That's a permanent, significant improvement that's not going to move," he said.

"I think it would just change things overnight. I really do."

Finally, I think if we're going to commit to a street car system, we ought to do so with the idea of expanding it over time, rather than making it a one off. Perhaps first up and down Division, and then Wealthy to Eastown, then to John Ball Park Zoo, then to Creston, etc....

Once upon a time, Grand Rapids supported a streetcar system with less density than we have now. It seems like we could really make such a system work.

City Studies Streetcar System (Cincinnati Enquirer)

I agree with that xopher, to an extent. The tricky issue (and ITP is going to stuggle with this), is where to build that first 2.4 mile line. If you build it somewhere where ridership will be low, with hopes that development will occur, it will be failure and will probably never be expanded. Much of the success, and failure, of mass transit relies on the perception to the public that it's worthwhile. That's why I'm trying to think of a way to build a streetcar line that captures a need that is present today, now, that can be built upon with future extensions. One where the first year ridership would be in the 1000 - 1500 riders/day, with a five year goal of perhaps 3000 riders/day. And a streetcar designed this year and next would probably open in 2010 or 2011 (when MSU opens its doors)

I don't know if strong ridership is attainable by just providing a link from areas of S. Division to downtown. It takes 3 - 5 years for TOD's (or any residential development for that matter) to go from proposal to people actually moving in. I would disagree on Monroe North. It's OK now, but certainly could use a massive amount more in residential and commercial/retail development. Plus, the WAM site and GR Press lot are almost perfect for TOD.

I think it's a mistake to use a streetcar to try and revive a virtually dead area. I think it's better to use it to improve on an emerging area.

Thanks for joining the discussion xopher. I'm really not trying to be dogmatic.

[DwntwnGeo]

Sorry for the poor sketch quality, but here is a sample what I think would be some good route to choose from. Granted they cannot all be built at one time and even the two loops probably would be buit one side at a time and then connecting them when completed. The Wealthy route is in there because there was a good comment from, I believe one of the GVMC members, that said that Wealthy into East Grand Rapids is a strong route and he would like to see a line (BRT or Streetcar) built there in his years in office (at least that is how I took it, maybe he meant in his remaining life

[AlexPKeaton]

I like the idea of running a streetcar up Monroe Center in your latest route, but I'm afraid it's too indirect for Pill Hill. I think a pretty simple east-west loop would be an ideal first step. I'd like to see a north south loop including Monroe North down to say Wealthy in the future as new developments come to fruition.

[GRDadof3]

Sorry for the poor sketch quality, but here is a sample what I think would be some good route to choose from. Granted they cannot all be built at one time and even the two loops probably would be buit one side at a time and then connecting them when completed. The Wealthy route is in there because there was a good comment from, I believe one of the GVMC members, that said that Wealthy into East Grand Rapids is a strong route and he would like to see a line (BRT or Streetcar) built there in his years in office (at least that is how I took it, maybe he meant in his remaining life

That's not bad. I agree with the comment about EGR and downtown link. I think you'd see sizeable ridership in the first year, and it would only grow as people moved to areas close to the line. The downside is that redevelopment opportunities to add density are limited. But still could happen.

[Rizzo]

Did anyone at the meeting talk about what type of bus?

[GaryP]

Sorry for the poor sketch quality, but here is a sample what I think would be some good route to choose from. Granted they cannot all be built at one time and even the two loops probably would be buit one side at a time and then connecting them when completed. The Wealthy route is in there because there was a good comment from, I believe one of the GVMC members, that said that Wealthy into East Grand Rapids is a strong route and he would like to see a line (BRT or Streetcar) built there in his years in office (at least that is how I took it, maybe he meant in his remaining life

I really like the Fulton/Lake Michigan Drive west side route. Maybe in the future that route could be extended all the way to GVSU. Actually that would work perfectly IMO.

[DwntwnGeo]

I really wonder if the BRT on Division would gain anything. Buses already run up and down Division, so I doubt that a BRT would make any difference.

Yes, I would agree that a street car would bring more investment down Division, but LRT would bring even more, so where do we stop? If we were to go with Streetcar down division, who would pay for it? We do meet the requirements for any Federal and State funding, so the $21-$24 Million per mile will have to be paid for by us locally? The 9 mile stretch would cost $189-$216 Million dollars. Say we get half from private donors/employers, would a proposal/millage pass for the remaining $100+ Million? Even if we cut it into thrids, 3 miles would get you roughly from Futon down to Hall. I don't know if there would be enough ridership to show placing the next 3 mile phase? I could be wrong though.

[DwntwnGeo]

Did anyone at the meeting talk about what type of bus?

I don't think they talked about specific busses. They said that the route would need 10 busses, 8 would be running and two for reserve when other busses were being worked on. If they did say a specific name or type, I must have missed it.

[foo_gr]

I'm not saying North Monroe doesn't need any love at all. I'm glad it is beginning to thrive, and I'm excited about the area it will develop into. I think that it may also have an impact on the Belknap Hill area, which is also a really neat area. But, I think that putting a streetcar system from downtown up North Monroe is almost like putting one from Downtown into the Heartside. You can pretty much get there by walking. I think that the NMonroe area seems like it is a long way away because of the evening desert of government buildings south of 96, and the couple of parking lots N of the freeway.

I think that putting a street car line down division has the potential to strengthen the Heartside, and extend it's success south as well as spur redevelopment in the Burton Heights business district, which has been hanging on despite the year long street renovations, and tie into the new Kroc Center. I think it wouldn't take long before you had people from Alger Heights/Garfield Park riding into downtown (and that is a pretty large neighborhood), as well as folks riding south to visit the business district/Kroc Center/International Mall (if that goes in).

I think that if BRT is really done right, that might have the same effect. I understand though, that at higher ridership volumes, BRT rapidly becomes less cost effective than light rail? Does anyone else know more about that?

[GRDadof3]

I think I got it. Don't know why I was ignoring Pearl before and favoring Fulton (maybe because it's wider). Anyway, what about this for a first line. 2 way track from LMD & Seward to Pearl and Monroe, 1 way track up Pearl to Division, 2 way track on North Division (keeping in mind that cars can drive on a streetcar rail, so no traffic lanes would be lost). The entire Spectrum campus, including MSU, will be connected by all kinds of skywalks and tunnels, so a stop right at the Division parking garage could get you access to VAI, Lemmen Holton, MSU, and Spectrum, all indoors.

5 stops, maybe 2 - 3 cars running consecutively. Can anyone compute the distance?

Future extensions could go N, S, E, W, some looping back to downtown.

[Rizzo]

Its about a mile.

[Veloise]

I went to the meeting this afternoon/evening.

...The motion passed to continue the process for BRT down Division Ave.

...

The motion passed to give the go ahead to research a streetcar for downtown. No real location has been mentioned, just that it sounds like it will include Monroe's downtown section (Fulton-Michigan). The additional research will develope who will ride, where they want to go, where they are from. This information will help provide where the first segment in a multi segement should be placed/created.

The motion passed for the millage renewal and millage increase for phase II improvements. The proposal will be on the May 8th election. Lets all show our support and vote!

Over all it was a good meeting and there was a lot of people there to support all causes. ...

Any mention of a certain multi-page-with-photos grass roots effort paper???

[GaryP]

Any mention of a certain multi-page-with-photos grass roots effort paper???

Unfortunately there was not

[DwntwnGeo]

Article about Transit Millage on May 8th ballot:

"The Rapid transit authority's board Wednesday voted 11-0 to seek a renewal of its 0.95 mill for operations and a new 0.17 mill for other services. "

"The new services would include another regular bus route to the Northwest Side of Grand Rapids around Union High School, increasing the frequency of runs on five other routes and the addition of weekday evening and some Saturday runs on another five routes."

"The 1.12-mill proposal would cost the owner of a $100,000 home about $56 a year. It would raise about $12.2 million for the transit service in 2008."

The complete article can be read on Mlive.com at: http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ss....xml&coll=6

[GRDadof3]

Unfortunately there was not

I wasn't able to get it to the Board Secretary until yesterday morning. Hopefully it will get read though.

[GRDadof3]

OK, a little bit better. Taking it South on Monroe, then Louis to Fulton, to Division North. Gets it a little bit closer to S. Division, and more redevelopment opportunities (F&D, Hinman lot, Keeler Bldg, 50 Monroe, Fitzgerald, JA Building, Tall House). Part of their plan is to get developers to help with the costs, so it's going to have to run past at least some of the develop-able areas.

[Allison Slater]

I like that latest one a lot better than the previous. The previous targeted only one group at all really, and that could be a very bad thing.

The latest targets the following: medical workers, students, and local tourists.

What school group visitng the Art, Van Andel, or Ford museum won't want to give the streetcar a ride? (I just notised it also runs by Burger King, which can be great for school groups.)

Parking south of the arena full? Advertise the lots on the west side of town + streetcar with a stop at Ionia. (Could make the stop a night-only stop)

And then of course the GVSU and Med School students, and medical workers.

Another future route could be down Monroe/Grandville. Not that I'm saying RiverGrand will happen, but with all the attention its gotten, I'm sure something will pump life into that area within the next 20 years.

[GRDadof3]

I like that latest one a lot better than the previous. The previous targeted only one group at all really, and that could be a very bad thing.

The latest targets the following: medical workers, students, and local tourists.

What school group visitng the Art, Van Andel, or Ford museum won't want to give the streetcar a ride? (I just notised it also runs by Burger King, which can be great for school groups.)

Parking south of the arena full? Advertise the lots on the west side of town + streetcar with a stop at Ionia. (Could make the stop a night-only stop)

And then of course the GVSU and Med School students, and medical workers.

Another future route could be down Monroe/Grandville. Not that I'm saying RiverGrand will happen, but with all the attention its gotten, I'm sure something will pump life into that area within the next 20 years.

And don't forget a streetcar ride from the Days Inn (insert name change) Indoor Waterpark to the Children's Museum.

[Veloise]

I wasn't able to get it to the Board Secretary until yesterday morning. Hopefully it will get read though.

You're fired. And we're docking your pay!

[GRDadof3]

You're fired. And we're docking your pay!

Hey, it's hard to dock $0. I didn't think it would be added as a line item on the agenda.

For anyone new to the discussion, to see a refresher on what a light rail streetcar would look like through downtown, see a video simulation here:

http://www.nc3d.com/gallery/Transit

(go to Baltimore streetcar video clip, 2nd down on the left, not FireFox friendly)

That streetcar in Baltimore goes up some pretty steep hills..