Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[GRDadof3]

I read that article and was a little annoyed they referenced to this O'Toole fellow. I believe he has been known to be funded by oil and right-wing extremists. Its this kind of mingling of outsiders both left and right and extremists that disturbs me.

There are going to be critics, and you can bet people here in Grand Rapids are going to be pulling more quotes from outspoken critics of mass transit around the country. Here are just a few arguments you can expect here:

We can buy a new car for every light rail rider and it would be cheaper

We should be spending tax dollars on other things, like more buses or more highway lanes

Streetcars only benefit developers

Light Rail increases pollution

Streetcars are for Disneyland

Light rail and streetcars are dangerous and inflexible

These people aren't extremists. They do raise a few valid points, so you just have to be ready to counter their points (which they may be able to have data to back up some claims) with facts, and with vision. Remember that most taxpayers like to vote with the optimists, not the pessimists, so you have to show why they should be optimistic about a new transportation system in the area, and the specific features and benefits of a streetcar and light-rail system.

For instance, I was just reading a couple of online pieces for Salt Lake City's increased sales tax to fund expansions of their TRAX light rail system, which was passed last Fall 06. They use a sentence frequently in their material that the head of the Denver Chamber of Commerce reported that "new business prospects" tripled after the 2004 passage of Denver's FASTRACKS legislation ($4.7 Billion for light rail expansion) EXAMPLE. Not very quantifiable, but it sure sounds good, and it sure is hard for critics to counter that.

BTW: I drew up the Gaslight Village Streetcar line and where I think stops would probably be placed (although I'm sure the community will be heavily involved in where stops should be paced). Pretty cut and dry. However, since they have to probably run dual tracks for the route to make it efficient, it would be cool if they could run the downtown-bound train up Fuller or Diamond to Fulton and have it meet back up with the EGR bound train at Fulton/Jefferson area.

[Rizzo]

I'm not talking about the average Joe Taxpayer with valid questions. I'm talking about people whoes intentions are to derail the conversation with accusation or outrageous attention grabbing garbage. What we need on this issue a a community debate.

Before all this I was a skeptic of trains in GR, but I just took the initiative to read on this issue from as many different sources as I could and I'm now a cheerleader.

[GRDadof3]

I'm not talking about the average Joe Taxpayer with valid questions. I'm talking about people whoes intentions are to derail the conversation with accusation or outrageous attention grabbing garbage. What we need on this issue a a community debate.

Before all this I was a skeptic of trains in GR, but I just took the initiative to read on this issue from as many different sources as I could and I'm now a cheerleader.

I see what you're saying. The biggest critics of mass transit come from the Libertarian Party, and groups like the Reason Foundation, Cato Institute, and the Goldwater Institute.

Yes, I've read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. Depressingly self-centered paranoia if you ask me.

[grrwymg]

Free Beer & Hot Wings (WGRD 97.9FM) want listeners to call in and let them know why GR needs the streetcar system. They're already poopooing the idea.

Getting joe-listener to hear good reasons would be a great start...

Edited February 12, 2007 by grrwymg

[NorthEnder]

Free Beer & Hot Wings (WGRD 97.9FM) want listeners to call in and let them know why GR needs the streetcar system. They're already poopooing the idea.

Getting joe-listener to hear good reasons would be a great start...

They just don't know "why" it'd help. They just want someone to say how it'd spurn development. Maybe call in and mention the permenance of street-cars versus bus stops.

[Rizzo]

This issue must go grass roots....

[GRDadof3]

I don't listen to that show much anymore, but every streetcar line from Tacoma, to Portland, to Little Rock, has spurned Billions of dollars of development along the lines. There are people who do want to live along a streetcar line and forego using their cars for everything. However, the streetcar lines should be an important link in an entire metro-wide transit system (including light rail to the suburbs) as a link to the neighborhood centers. Otherwise, one downtown streetcar line by itself may become another People Mover, IMO.

Northender is right. Developers do invest in property around streetcar lines because there is no chance they could be moved in the future. People looking to buy a condo or open a business along a streetcar line feel very confident that they will be serviced by the streetcar long into the future, and BANKS AGREE. They become a fixture in the community, and sometimes are even incorporated right into the development (Transit Oriented Developments). But this is not specifically to benefit developers, it's to get to the end product that a developer facilitates: more retail/commercial/residential uses and more vibrancy. Downtown is doing well, but it has not reached "critical mass" yet.

They can also be a source of community pride.

They're much more environmentally-friendly for short trips to the store or entertainment. Plus, it allows city leaders to not have to provide quite as many parking spaces downtown, thereby freeing up that land for more revenue-producing ventures and making downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods more vibrant.

You may not convince very many Free Beer listeners, but it's all about momentum. A well articulated argument in support of streetcars might at least slow it down a bit. We can't let momentum head in the opposite direction (against).

What appeals to Free Beer listeners? Young (18 - 35), male, beer-drinkers, bar goers. Streetcars could make bar-hopping easier? No, but seriously, what do you think? They're going to think streetcars = yuppies or Pacific Northwest hippies, Starbucks, etc..

[Rizzo]

I did my part with this Hot Wing stuff.

[NorthEnder]

I don't listen to that show much anymore, but every streetcar line from Tacoma, to Portland, to Little Rock, has spurned Billions of dollars of development along the lines. There are people who do want to live along a streetcar line and forego using their cars for everything. However, the streetcar lines should be an important link in an entire metro-wide transit system (including light rail to the suburbs) as a link to the neighborhood centers. Otherwise, one downtown streetcar line by itself may become another People Mover, IMO.

Northender is right. Developers do invest in property around streetcar lines because there is no chance they could be moved in the future. People looking to buy a condo or open a business along a streetcar line feel very confident that they will be serviced by the streetcar long into the future, and BANKS AGREE. They become a fixture in the community, and sometimes are even incorporated right into the development (Transit Oriented Developments). But this is not specifically to benefit developers, it's to get to the end product that a developer facilitates: more retail/commercial/residential uses and more vibrancy. Downtown is doing well, but it has not reached "critical mass" yet.

They can also be a source of community pride.

They're much more environmentally-friendly for short trips to the store or entertainment. Plus, it allows city leaders to not have to provide quite as many parking spaces downtown, thereby freeing up that land for more revenue-producing ventures and making downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods more vibrant.

You may not convince very many Free Beer listeners, but it's all about momentum. A well articulated argument in support of streetcars might at least slow it down a bit. We can't let momentum head in the opposite direction (against).

What appeals to Free Beer listeners? Young (18 - 35), male, beer-drinkers, bar goers. Streetcars could make bar-hopping easier?

Their age demo is males 25-38 or something, but they are the most listened to morning show in Grand Rapids (arbitron data supports that.)

Someone did bring up the idea of drunk driving/bar hopping, but it'd only be useful if the streetcar went by their house, otherwise, they'd still have to drive home.

Edited February 12, 2007 by NorthEnder

[GRDadof3]

Their age demo is males 25-38 or something, but they are the most listened to morning show in Grand Rapids (arbitron data supports that.)

Someone did bring up the idea of drunk driving/bar hopping, but it'd only be useful if the streetcar went by their house, otherwise, they'd still have to drive home.

I would believe that. Chances are many of the listeners don't live near the proposed streetcar line(s), so about the only thing you can get across at this point is the economic development tool that it can be used for. And that there are many examples of other cities that have implemented streetcars and have reaped the benefits. It's not the end-all-be-all, but it's another important tool.

[Rizzo]

I don't think it can hurt if we ask ourselves all the reasons that can go against our position on LRT and streetcar. If we can come up with the most obvious questions a local has and come up with answers we might be able to develop a plan of action to educate.

I'll start:

The proposed streetcar won't work because Grand Rapids is a small town.

The propsed streetcar won't work because people can walk downtown quicker than streetcar.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

If you still want to send feedback to the GRPress about the proposed streetcar lines, you can send an email to:

[email protected]

Put "steetcars" in the subject line.

The proposed streetcar won't work because Grand Rapids is a small town.

That's an easy one. It's a lot less expensive starting a mass transit system in a medium-sized city than a large city. Look at Detroit's situation now. Any effective light rail line has to extend at least 20 miles out into the suburbs, or 30 - 40 miles to Ann Arbor or Pontiac. At $40 Million/mile, that's close to a $Billion per line. In our situation, you can get to the suburban fringes in 5 - 7 miles from downtown. Anyone who says Grand Rapids will always be small yada yada are just too juvenile to debate with.

The proposed streetcar won't work because people can walk downtown quicker than streetcar.

The proposed streetcar will average about 6 mph (including stops). That's faster than anyone can walk, and warmer than walking in this weather (especially for non-Northerner visitors).

[Veloise]

Adding density to transit (one vehicle, many users) helps alleviate traffic congestion and parking issues, improves overall travel time.

[will dig up the Dutch bicycle poster that shows people with vehicles and sitting on chairs in the street]

[Rizzo]

Great people! That's what I'm talking about...

[GRDadof3]

Here's my email to the Press:

I think the proposal to add streetcars downtown and to the surrounding neighborhood centers is a great one. There are many reasons to invest in streetcars:

- They can be an important transportation tool for a complete metro-wide mass transit system, providing links to downtown and other neighborhood centers.

- They have been proven to attract more riders than traditional buses.

- There are many people who would like to be able to forego using their cars for short trips to the store, riding to campus or entertainment.

- Developers, banks and investors know this, and have invested Billions of dollars along streetcar lines in many other cities, from large to small, because they are a permanent fixture that cannot be moved easily (unlike bus lines)

- Prospective residents and business owners feel confident in investing along streetcar lines, because they know that they will be serviced by the streetcar line far into the future.

- It changes land use patterns for the better, and can allow cities to drastically cut back on parking requirements. It can free up scarce land which can be put to better use than parking lots or parking ramps, building viability and increasing tax revenue.

- They can reduce short car trips, which cause more emissions and use more gas than long car trips.

- They can help dispel the perception that Grand Rapids is a stodgy, overly-conservative city and provide some much needed exposure for Grand Rapids' growth to the rest of the country. "Health-Sciences Center", "Healthy City", "True Sustainability-Leader", "Best medium-sized city transit system", and "Example for the rest of the State" could be regular Grand Rapids' monikers.

With all this being said, Grand Rapids needs to take steps to move into a metro-wide transit system to address not only short car trips, but also commuting patterns into downtown. Streetcars can help acquaint GR residents with mass transit, in the hopes that they will climb on board a more comprehensive transit strategy for the next 20 years.

Now is the time to act, not 20 years from now when congestion is out of control.

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[Explorer55]

Here's my email to the Press:

I think the proposal to add streetcars downtown and to the surrounding neighborhood centers is a great one. There are many reasons to invest in streetcars:

- They can be an important transportation tool for a complete metro-wide mass transit system, providing links to downtown and other neighborhood centers.

- They have been proven to attract more riders than traditional buses.

- There are many people who would like to be able to forego using their cars for short trips to the store, riding to campus or entertainment.

- Developers, banks and investors know this, and have invested Billions of dollars along streetcar lines in many other cities, from large to small, because they are a permanent fixture that cannot be moved easily (unlike bus lines)

- Prospective residents and business owners feel confident in investing along streetcar lines, because they know that they will be serviced by the streetcar line far into the future.

- It changes land use patterns for the better, and can allow cities to drastically cut back on parking requirements. It can free up scarce land which can be put to better use than parking lots or parking ramps, building viability and increasing tax revenue.

- They can reduce short car trips, which cause more emissions and use more gas than long car trips.

- They can help dispel the perception that Grand Rapids is a stodgy, overly-conservative city and provide some much needed exposure for Grand Rapids' growth to the rest of the country. "Health-Sciences Center", "Healthy City", "True Sustainability-Leader", "Best medium-sized city transit system", and "Example for the rest of the State" could be regular Grand Rapids' monikers.

With all this being said, Grand Rapids needs to take steps to move into a metro-wide transit system to address not only short car trips, but also commuting patterns into downtown. Streetcars can help acquaint GR residents with mass transit, in the hopes that they will climb on board a more comprehensive transit strategy for the next 20 years.

Now is the time to act, not 20 years from now when congestion is out of control.

signature

[Explorer55]

Here's a link that should prove useful.

http://www.cfte.org/

[GRDadof3]

Here's a link that should prove useful.

http://www.cfte.org/

Thanks Explorer55! I've seen that website before.

[NorthEnder]

Thanks Explorer55! I've seen that website before.

Don't forget about Memphis. Wonder what their ridership is.

[GRDadof3]

3000 riders per average weekday.

Light rail systems ranked by ridership

[DwntwnGeo]

Here is a link to the new proposed FTA New Starts program

http://www.fta.dot.gov/planning/newstarts/...nment_5615.html

Specfic links to the Small Starts and Very Small Starts Programs:

http://www.fta.dot.gov/planning/newstarts/...onment_222.html

The Very Small Starts and Small Starts programs seem to have similar requirements other than costs.

[gvsusean]

on the air tomorrow, on wood 1300, rick and scott will be discussing the issue;im sure they will be against it

Edited February 13, 2007 by gvsusean

[GRDadof3]

Well, if anyone gets a chance to call in, here's some more information from Center for Transportation Excellence:

What the critics are saying

Although I don't see any of Rick & Scott's listeners formulating anything as cohesive as these arguments, here are a few:

Critic: Bus is a cheaper form of transportation

* In fact, buses cost significantly more to operate than rail. The Federal Transit Administration

[Rizzo]

I'd like to also add that MANY people will call in voicing their opinions believing this streetcar project will cost taxpayer money.

[GRDadof3]

Here are some more interesting facts from the Center for Transportation Excellence.

I've actually read critics say that mass transit has been on the decline for the last 30 - 40 years. Au Contraire:

Since 1990 light rail ridership has nearly doubled from 175 million trips to 336 million in 2001. In fact, 11 out of 12 new rail systems built after 1980 in the U.S. have added new lines since their opening due to increased demand.

*

Salt Lake City's light rail system, TRAX, projected initial weekday ridership of 14,000. Actual ridership for first four months was 19,000 per weekday. Saturday ridership was even higher at 25,000. TRAX also came in a year ahead of schedule and $23 million under budget.

When Portland's MAX system opened in 1998, critics argued the 2005 ridership projections were overly optimistic. MAX surpassed it's 2005 projections by its second anniversary, carrying 71,000 riders per day.

Since the completion of the Interstate highway system and passage of the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991, there has been a significant shift in investment priorities. The past forty years has seen a massive investment in road infrastructure, but now the focus is on transit infrastructure and highway maintenance.

If market demand is any indicator of where investment should be made, one need only look at the demand for federal New Starts transit funding. By some estimates, based on available federal funds, there is a 20 year backlog of requests for transit projects. In addition, transit investment leads to transit growth. When transit trips are competitive with the automobile, there is a large percentage of people who will choose transit.

BTW: I put on Rick and Scott around 9 and they were talking about gangs and the stabbing at Woodland. Did anyone catch the Streetcar discussion (bashing)?