Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[Grand Rapidian]

on the air tomorrow, on wood 1300, rick and scott will be discussing the issue;im sure they will be against it

Free Beer and Hot Wings were not fond of it yesterday morning.

[GRDadof3]

Free Beer and Hot Wings were not fond of it yesterday morning.

That's not the end of the world. They just don't see how it would benefit them. And frankly, I don't know that a single streetcar line would benefit Free Beer and Hot Wings directly, although I believe it will be great for downtown.

I don't think the formal proposal to the community will come until later this year of early next. I'm sure it's just out now because of Heartwell's trip to Portland and its expense, which is good. This whole process needs to be as transparent as possible to eliminate impressions of underhandedness or backdoor deals with developers..

[dodgeboy11]

This whole process needs to be as transparent as possible to eliminate impressions of underhandedness or backdoor deals with developers..

True, GRDad, but I don't really care if they did do a backdoor deal with developers..... Oh no, the properties they have are now worth more -> more $ for them. Well that also means more investiment in downtown on underutilized properties and it means higher property tax. If the streetcar system adds say 50,000,000 to property values, then 25 million with a 30 mil rate = 750,000 a year in increased tax revenue. If it causes building on underutilized properties, you might see a whole lot more in growth...'specially condos where now you get the added bonus of more income tax. I have to believe it would generate 1-2 million in extra taxes...this means it pays for itself in what...30-40 years at most? That means it is effectivly FREE.....like to see M6 pay its 750 million that easily or other highways (oh wait, since M6 went through my house hasn't even kept up with inflation...hmmmm....no value there!)

[GRDadof3]

True, GRDad, but I don't really care if they did do a backdoor deal with developers..... Oh no, the properties they have are now worth more -> more $ for them. Well that also means more investiment in downtown on underutilized properties and it means higher property tax. If the streetcar system adds say 50,000,000 to property values, then 25 million with a 30 mil rate = 750,000 a year in increased tax revenue. If it causes building on underutilized properties, you might see a whole lot more in growth...'specially condos where now you get the added bonus of more income tax. I have to believe it would generate 1-2 million in extra taxes...this means it pays for itself in what...30-40 years at most? That means it is effectivly FREE.....like to see M6 pay its 750 million that easily or other highways (oh wait, since M6 went through my house hasn't even kept up with inflation...hmmmm....no value there!)

Oh, I completely agree. But bad perceptions can sink the whole ship, if people think money is being mismanaged or if people think secret deals are being made. The group working on this needs to make as much information available to the public as possible (without causing unnecessary property speculation along the line routes).

[highwayguy]

Apparently ITP has put an option on DASH lot 6 to possibly move the Amtrak station there.

They would like to relocate the Amtrak station to Central Station to have everything in one place (Amtrak, Greyhound, and The Rapid). Even though the trains couldn't come right up to the building, I believe that all of the station operations, such as ticketing, would be handled in the Central Station building. However, it is years away from happening, mostly because there are not any tracks there at the current moment, and railroads apparently move very slowly. IMO, this could also be a good starting point for several commuter rail lines as well.

A nice train station would be great. It seems like all of Michigan's larger citys have dinky train stations that look like they are Taco Bells.

Here are some photos of the current station. They are almost 10 years old, but it still looks the same.

And here is a map showing its current location.

Edited February 14, 2007 by highwayguy

[Rizzo]

I guess some at the GR Press want to quote me on this.

[dtown]

Ok, its not quite a taco bell, but its little and you can tell it was built "fast and cheap", as that website you posted says.

[Explorer55]

I guess some at the GR Press want to quote me on this.

[Explorer55]

If federal money is going to be sought for any expansion or enhancement of transit in the GR area (or any federal-aid highway/road projects), the proposal must go through the metropolitan planning process. The agency responsible for that in the GR area is the Grand Valley Metro Council. Get to understand their process and responsibilities as the Metropolitan Planning Organization for the GR region and become involved. The whole planning process is required to be open and accessible to the public, but only to the extent the "public" cares to take advantage of that opportunity.

Btw, MDOT has to be a "cooperating" party to the metro planning process, as well as The Rapid.

[GRDadof3]

If federal money is going to be sought for any expansion or enhancement of transit in the GR area (or any federal-aid highway/road projects), the proposal must go through the metropolitan planning process. The agency responsible for that in the GR area is the Grand Valley Metro Council. Get to understand their process and responsibilities as the Metropolitan Planning Organization for the GR region and become involved. The whole planning process is required to be open and accessible to the public, but only to the extent the "public" cares to take advantage of that opportunity.

Btw, MDOT has to be a "cooperating" party to the metro planning process, as well as The Rapid.

Thanks for the info Explorer55. What do you think the chances are of getting federal funding any time soon for anything other than BRT? Do you think it would behoove us to look at other funding alternatives, such as a transit sales tax?

GVMC basically takes transit information provided by ITP to include in their long range plan, so the ball really needs to start at ITP. They would never include in their long range plan something that joe schmoe formulated on his own (would be my educated guess). And I don't think they would initiate a long-range mass transit plan on their own, or at least that's not the impression I've gotten from people who work with GVMC. Is that true?

As of their latest draft 2035 Long Range Plan, they have the two initial GT2 proposals:

http://www.gvmc.org/transportation/documen..._draft_main.pdf

[GRDadof3]

They would like to relocate the Amtrak station to Central Station to have everything in one place (Amtrak, Greyhound, and The Rapid). Even though the trains couldn't come right up to the building, I believe that all of the station operations, such as ticketing, would be handled in the Central Station building. However, it is years away from happening, mostly because there are not any tracks there at the current moment, and railroads apparently move very slowly. IMO, this could also be a good starting point for several commuter rail lines as well.

Here are some photos of the current station. They are almost 10 years old, but it still looks the same.

And here is a map showing its current location.

highwayguy, we're going to have to change your username to railguy. I think it would actually work better as a receiving point for commuter rail or light rail, and would get used more heavily, than an Amtrak station. Maybe there's room for both. Not sure.

[Explorer55]

Thanks for the info Explorer55. What do you think the chances are of getting federal funding any time soon for anything other than BRT? Do you think it would behoove us to look at other funding alternatives, such as a transit sales tax?

GVMC basically takes transit information provided by ITP to include in their long range plan, so the ball really needs to start at ITP. They would never include in their long range plan something that joe schmoe formulated on his own (would be my educated guess). And I don't think they would initiate a long-range mass transit plan on their own, or at least that's not the impression I've gotten from people who work with GVMC. Is that true?

As of their latest draft 2035 Long Range Plan, they have the two initial GT2 proposals:

http://www.gvmc.org/transportation/documen..._draft_main.pdf

Ideally, the MPO and the transit agency should work closely in developing a multimodal, regional transportation plan. The ITP may have the lead for transit planning, but the MPO, both staff and policy makers, should be communicating and working with their counterparts at the ITP regularly. If you want to find out how that may/should work and examples of cooperation across the country, read the FTA report (found on its website), "Transit at the Table".

Definitely, local commitment to transit system expansion and enhancement through local sales taxes or other funding resources helps grease the skids in applying for and receiving FTA funds. More than anything, the proposal needs to be based on realistic assumptions, including ridership, costs, funding, growth projections, etc. For a region the size (and density) of Grand Rapids, BRT may be more practical than LRT, but there could be other or a mix of approaches and strategies, and a need to look at the bigger, regional transportation system and land use patterns and development. Then there's Albuquerque, which with the Governor's backing, went the whole way and instituted commuter rail (to my knowledge with little or no federal funding). My concern is how people get to and from the stations without a car. Most of Albuquerque and other communities along the route are not pedestrian friendly (yet) and public transit service is limited. The commuter rail service is heavily subsidized and I'm not sure how long it may last without Governor Richardson's support. Extending the service to Santa Fe makes more sense than anything, but that is still a ways off into the future.

[GRDadof3]

Ideally, the MPO and the transit agency should work closely in developing a multimodal, regional transportation plan. The ITP may have the lead for transit planning, but the MPO, both staff and policy makers, should be communicating and working with their counterparts at the ITP regularly. If you want to find out how that may/should work and examples of cooperation across the country, read the FTA report (found on its website), "Transit at the Table".

Definitely, local commitment to transit system expansion and enhancement through local sales taxes or other funding resources helps grease the skids in applying for and receiving FTA funds. More than anything, the proposal needs to be based on realistic assumptions, including ridership, costs, funding, growth projections, etc. For a region the size (and density) of Grand Rapids, BRT may be more practical than LRT, but there could be other or a mix of approaches and strategies, and a need to look at the bigger, regional transportation system and land use patterns and development. Then there's Albuquerque, which with the Governor's backing, went the whole way and instituted commuter rail (to my knowledge with little or no federal funding). My concern is how people get to and from the stations without a car. Most of Albuquerque and other communities along the route are not pedestrian friendly (yet) and public transit service is limited. The commuter rail service is heavily subsidized and I'm not sure how long it may last without Governor Richardson's support. Extending the service to Santa Fe makes more sense than anything, but that is still a ways off into the future.

But is anyone all that excited about BRT? It doesn't exactly inspire people, especially the stripped-down bare-bones version proposed for South Division. In addition, do people make housing decisions based on BRT lines? Will it affect land use policies? I have yet to find anything that supports that.

Couldn't some bus routes be reworked, or added, to feed the commuter rail/LRT stations, without disrupting the people who use the buses for local service?

Last question. Does the FTA (federal funding) have to be involved in a transit system?

Thanks.

[Explorer55]

Last question. Does the FTA (federal funding) have to be involved in a transit system?

[GRDadof3]

Last question. Does the FTA (federal funding) have to be involved in a transit system?

It's up to the community/transit operator as to whether it wants to use/apply for federal funding. (e.g., Denver and Houston "starter" LRT routes and several of the proposed Denver FasTracks corridors)

The only reason I ask, is if my computations are correct, $7.5 Billion +/- in retail sales in Kent County x a 1% sales tax over 20 years = $1.5 Billion (!). Would FTA (federal funds) even be needed? At $40/Million per mile, that's about 30 miles of light rail, and about 6 - 7 miles of streetcar rail. Salt Lake City is comparable in population and density as GR, and they just recently passed an increased sales tax and reduced their 30 year transit plan to a 15 year transit plan, adding 4 new TRAX lines and a new commuter rail line.

[Raildudes dad]

They would like to relocate the Amtrak station to Central Station to have everything in one place (Amtrak, Greyhound, and The Rapid). Even though the trains couldn't come right up to the building, I believe that all of the station operations, such as ticketing, would be handled in the Central Station building. However, it is years away from happening, mostly because there are not any tracks there at the current moment, and railroads apparently move very slowly. IMO, this could also be a good starting point for several commuter rail lines as well.

If the Rapid is waiting for CSX to build a track to the "great white tent", they'll wait until something very warm freezes over. CSX has the closest track (NS has trackage rights over the track there) and would prefer not to share with Amtrak and definately not commuter unless forced / coherced (read paid lots of money). They will never build the connection unless they are forced and someone else pays for it. Interesting, the great white tent is built on the location of the old downtown freight yard. A piece of a siding still exists behind the Aneheiser Busch Ice House at 72? Grandville Ave.

The right location for the great white tent / Go Bus / Dash Bus/ Amtak / Greyhound / commuter station was the freight house on Bridge Street. The land was "vacant" pre Dash lots, Amtrak goes past it on the way to and from the overnight layover location, GVSU campus right there, Dash bus service , only 2 freights a day, walking distance to the DeVos Place etc, etc. The best potential for commuter rail was / is Sparta to Byron Center via CSX / Marquette north & NS south except the Westlin report trashed that idea. The commuter trains would pull through this location. The present location of the great white tent. will require a back up move by each and every train that uses it. Very, very time consuming and inefficient for commuter service.

The stars & planets need to be aligned for commuter rail of any sort to be successful in metro GR and the present alignment isn't very good

[Raildudes dad]

So, now I'm wondering if my own argument works. According to the GVSU/Rapid schedule: GVSU has grown from one straight route connecting two campuses to four routes serving almost 15,000 riders per day. According to someone I know who works at GVSU, the buses run every 8-9 minutes. I wonder how much of the record ridership is due to the students?

IMHO, ridership is up due to the GVSU students and the extended nights and weekend hours. One can actually take the bus and if have to work late, can still take the bus home. I do question if the additional ridership revenue pays for the same share of operating costs or does the fare box cover even less than at the lower ridership?

[DwntwnGeo]

If the Rapid is waiting for CSX to build a track to the "great white tent", they'll wait until something very warm freezes over. CSX has the closest track (NS has trackage rights over the track there) and would prefer not to share with Amtrak and definately not commuter unless forced / coherced (read paid lots of money). They will never build the connection unless they are forced and someone else pays for it. Interesting, the great white tent is built on the location of the old downtown freight yard. A piece of a siding still exists behind the Aneheiser Busch Ice House at 72? Grandville Ave.

The right location for the great white tent / Go Bus / Dash Bus/ Amtak / Greyhound / commuter station was the freight house on Bridge Street. The land was "vacant" pre Dash lots, Amtrak goes past it on the way to and from the overnight layover location, GVSU campus right there, Dash bus service , only 2 freights a day, walking distance to the DeVos Place etc, etc. The best potential for commuter rail was / is Sparta to Byron Center via CSX / Marquette north & NS south except the Westlin report trashed that idea. The commuter trains would pull through this location. The present location of the great white tent. will require a back up move by each and every train that uses it. Very, very time consuming and inefficient for commuter service.

The stars & planets need to be aligned for commuter rail of any sort to be successful in metro GR and the present alignment isn't very good

Was there a study done by the City or Regional Group (GVMC) when the proposal to move the bus depot to the current "great white tent" location was announced? Was there any reasons as to why they picked the current location over any others in the downtown area? Though I really don't mind the current location, Raildudes Dad sugguest some good points for future flow through rail service. Would it be possible for another transit center to be built in the older rail yard? This would create one transit center for rail (commuter & Amtrak) and the current transit center for Greyhound/busses etc. Then they can have the street car system transfer between the two in a circular connector

[Raildudes dad]

Was there a study done by the City or Regional Group (GVMC) when the proposal to move the bus depot to the current "great white tent" location was announced? Was there any reasons as to why they picked the current location over any others in the downtown area? Though I really don't mind the current location, Raildudes Dad sugguest some good points for future flow through rail service. Would it be possible for another transit center to be built in the older rail yard? This would create one transit center for rail (commuter & Amtrak) and the current transit center for Greyhound/busses etc. Then they can have the street car system transfer between the two in a circular connector

The tracks in the old yard went "north" via the "Blue Bridge" at GVSU. That "path" is closed forever. Union Station was on Ionia south of Fulton and northbound passenger trains went north via the blue bridge.:

Why did they build where they did? "free DDA land". The reasons I listed were articlated to the powers to be and never acknowleged. Why? "I" (the organization I represented) was local (Not an expert from out of town) and it was free (No $10's of thousands of consulting fees)

While I'm at it, tamis6 wanted a map of the streetcars in GR. I have a map but can't attach a scan of it . My question that those that say streetcars can't go up Michigan St hill is "why not"? They did in 1924. 2007 technology is worse?

Edited February 14, 2007 by Raildudes dad

[DwntwnGeo]

While I'm at it, tamis6 wanted a map of the streetcars in GR. I have a map but can't attach a scan of it . My question that those that say streetcars can't go up Michigan St hill is "why not"? They did in 1924. 2007 technology is worse?

Thanks for the information about the rail routes

I wouldn't say that 2007 technology is worse, but Federal/State/City Govenments might have more regulations/restrictions than they did in 1924

[GRDadof3]

If the Rapid is waiting for CSX to build a track to the "great white tent", they'll wait until something very warm freezes over. CSX has the closest track (NS has trackage rights over the track there) and would prefer not to share with Amtrak and definately not commuter unless forced / coherced (read paid lots of money). They will never build the connection unless they are forced and someone else pays for it. Interesting, the great white tent is built on the location of the old downtown freight yard. A piece of a siding still exists behind the Aneheiser Busch Ice House at 72? Grandville Ave.

The right location for the great white tent / Go Bus / Dash Bus/ Amtak / Greyhound / commuter station was the freight house on Bridge Street. The land was "vacant" pre Dash lots, Amtrak goes past it on the way to and from the overnight layover location, GVSU campus right there, Dash bus service , only 2 freights a day, walking distance to the DeVos Place etc, etc. The best potential for commuter rail was / is Sparta to Byron Center via CSX / Marquette north & NS south except the Westlin report trashed that idea. The commuter trains would pull through this location. The present location of the great white tent. will require a back up move by each and every train that uses it. Very, very time consuming and inefficient for commuter service.

The stars & planets need to be aligned for commuter rail of any sort to be successful in metro GR and the present alignment isn't very good

That area near Seward and Lake Michigan Drive/Bridge is exactly where I proposed a light rail station serving the Northern area up to West River Drive via the Norfolk Southern ROW (that's actually in pretty good shape), and out toward the West side via the ROW that runs through Padnos' property (South of Fulton) and hooks up with the new Wealthy St extension out to Millennium Park and beyond:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=698636

Then connect that via streetcars to downtown and Michigan Hill.

Do you think that would make a good station for a Southern commuter rail or LRT line Raildudesdad? Would it go over that old rail bridge by the city's property (Mystery Development parcel)? I've noticed that bridge has an abandoned rail line on it (or room for two lines and it only serves one).

[Explorer55]

The only reason I ask, is if my computations are correct, $7.5 Billion +/- in retail sales in Kent County x a 1% sales tax over 20 years = $1.5 Billion (!). Would FTA (federal funds) even be needed? At $40/Million per mile, that's about 30 miles of light rail, and about 6 - 7 miles of streetcar rail. Salt Lake City is comparable in population and density as GR, and they just recently passed an increased sales tax and reduced their 30 year transit plan to a 15 year transit plan, adding 4 new TRAX lines and a new commuter rail line.

I'm almost certain SLC is still going to seek FTA funds and probably use other federal funds for transit/commuter rail. There are also issues of maintaining/expanding bus service and long term operating/maintenance costs for the entire transit system, besides initial capital costs. Each area/project is different and comparing costs, even among areas of similar size and other characteristics can be tricky. And I'm not sure SLC and GR are that similar.

Also, to clarify my previous statement, Denver and Houston did NOT use federal funds on their initial LRT lines and Denver will seek New Start funds on only 3 of the FasTracks corridors (out of 7 or so). However, other federal funds are available for transit beyond New Starts grants.

[Raildudes dad]

That area near Seward and Lake Michigan Drive/Bridge is exactly where I proposed a light rail station serving the Northern area up to West River Drive via the Norfolk Southern ROW (that's actually in pretty good shape), and out toward the West side via the ROW that runs through Padnos' property (South of Fulton) and hooks up with the new Wealthy St extension out to Millennium Park and beyond:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=698636

Then connect that via streetcars to downtown and Michigan Hill.

Do you think that would make a good station for a Southern commuter rail or LRT line Raildudesdad? Would it go over that old rail bridge by the city's property (Mystery Development parcel)? I've noticed that bridge has an abandoned rail line on it (or room for two lines and it only serves one).

The stars and planets could have been aligned during the S-curve reconstruction. IMHO opinion, that was the opportunity to try communter rail inexpensively. But, the Weslin Report torpedoed that. Again IMHO, if the existing rail infrastructure isn't used, the cost will be prohibitive. Sparta to BC is the corridor with the most potential. West River / Comstock Park isn't far enough out, the freeway backs up way past that every morning right now. The street car system as proposed isn't long enough. Back in the 20's people walked further to get to the street cars than the proposed system is in lenght.

I don't want to repeat myself, but the great white tent on Bridge at Seward would have been the best location for all the modes. It still could be used for commuter rail, but I wouldn't take the trains to the great white tent. It would take way too long to back in or out. Dash buses to downtown buses would work. (Sorry , I just can't get excited about street cars - tourist gimmick IMHO). It would have to be commuter rail because I don't think you can run LRT on an adjacent track to regular rail plus crossing regular rail would be an expensive interlocking nightmare. Plus, the tracks are existing with very few freight trains a day. Cars may be more expensive but infrastructure is already in place:) And as long as I'm on a roll, used cars please, we don't need brand new to get started.

[GRDadof3]

The stars and planets could have been aligned during the S-curve reconstruction. IMHO opinion, that was the opportunity to try communter rail inexpensively. But, the Weslin Report torpedoed that. Again IMHO, if the existing rail infrastructure isn't used, the cost will be prohibitive. Sparta to BC is the corridor with the most potential. West River / Comstock Park isn't far enough out, the freeway backs up way past that every morning right now. The street car system as proposed isn't long enough. Back in the 20's people walked further to get to the street cars than the proposed system is in lenght.

I don't want to repeat myself, but the great white tent on Bridge at Seward would have been the best location for all the modes. It still could be used for commuter rail, but I wouldn't take the trains to the great white tent. It would take way too long to back in or out. Dash buses to downtown buses would work. (Sorry , I just can't get excited about street cars - tourist gimmick IMHO). It would have to be commuter rail because I don't think you can run LRT on an adjacent track to regular rail plus crossing regular rail would be an expensive interlocking nightmare. Plus, the tracks are existing with very few freight trains a day. Cars may be more expensive but infrastructure is already in place:) And as long as I'm on a roll, used cars please, we don't need brand new to get started.

But....even though West River and 131 may not be far enough out, heading toward Sparta IMO is the wrong direction. Seriously, once you get to Alpine and 6 mile, there's nothing. And, the Sparta area is not growing. The population is growing the other way, toward Rockford, Cedar Springs, Greenville. Wouldn't a park-n-ride station at 131/West River be a good start?

This might need to be moved to the transit thread.

Forget the Weslin Report. Let's start with a blank slate. If you were given a budget of $1 Billion to build a mass transit system in GR, where and what would you build?

[Raildudes dad]

But....even though West River and 131 may not be far enough out, heading toward Sparta IMO is the wrong direction. Seriously, once you get to Alpine and 6 mile, there's nothing. And, the Sparta area is not growing. The population is growing the other way, toward Rockford, Cedar Springs, Greenville. Wouldn't a park-n-ride station at 131/West River be a good start?

This might need to be moved to the transit thread.

Forget the Weslin Report. Let's start with a blank slate. If you were given a budget of $1 Billion to build a mass transit system in GR, where and what would you build?

Would you consider going west on 10 Mile Road or 13 Mile Road (14 Mile exit down Edgerton to 13) from 131 to a transit stop on the exisitng rail as opposed to stop & go on 131 from 10 Mile to West River?

I agree "to the transit thread we go:)".

Westlin Report - what bothers me is you, I and a few others could probably sit in a room and come up with a great plan but "the experts" ie Weslin come up with bee ess and the "powers to be" think it's great. Remember, "my " comments on the location of the transit center on Bridge Street were never even acknowledged by the Transit Board. And the letter was written on behalf of one of the potential metro rail commuter players (ROW and equipment) not an individual

$1billion - easy- start with commuter rail up the White Pine Trail, commuter rail down the old interurban to the south, commuter rail following the old interurban to Hudsonville & Holland. Add commuter rail to the west using the old GTW to Marne, Coopersville & Marne to Coopersville and the old ROW to Spring Lake, put back the track to Muskegon down the Muskatowa. Put the original streetcar lines back in GR. All tied together at the west side intermodal center. Actually, just putting back the streetcars and interurban system would be one fantastic system. Have I run out of money yet:)

The reality is IMHO this area really can't afford to do rail except on the cheap. That means use existing infrastructure and used equipment. It's going to be real interesting to see the ridership on the Howell to AA commuter train they want in operation early this spring. (I hope to work on the train occasionally as a conductor to get first hand experience )

Edited February 15, 2007 by Raildudes dad