Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[GRDadof3]

Yes 131, 96, and 196 are outdated and built for another era (How about comparing a late 50's early 60's car to todays' vehicles A/C was a luxury option, AM only radio standard, no seat belts, no airbags etc etc etc.). You should see the design ADT's (average daily traffic) for back then, just a mere fraction of the actual ADT today. The 96, 196, Beltliine interchange worked fine in those days (actually started driving myself shortly after it was built ) My point is, the pavement structure has held up remarkably well. 196 west of the Beltline is better than it was, yes, it needs rebuilding and widening. If you have a severe noise problem, we should discuss tires. Some brands are much noiser than others. (Got into a serious discussion with my boss over a road 's condition one time, he drove an Explorer at the time, ride quality and noise was much worse than the Chevy Celebrity I was driving).

The actual steel rail can last forever on a light or medium density line. But, the joints (on jointed rail), ties etc all require periodic maintenance. Deferred maintenance lowers the allowable speed limit. The number of "defects" and type all affect the allowable speed. The FRA standards determine the maximum allowable speed based on track condition. The operator of the train set will be held accountable for not reducing the speed limit accordingly and train crew members are held accountable for exceeding speed limits (Locomotives have speed recorders and the tapes are used to determine compliance with speed limits).

(We have lots to discuss Saturday )

Sorry for the rant, but those sections of highway are just an embarrassment. Normally my tires are not loud, it's just in the section of I-196 from downtown East out to I-96. Once I get to the new asphalt just past the Maryland Ave bridge, it's like a breath of fresh air for my ears.

[Raildudes dad]

Sorry for the rant, but those sections of highway are just an embarrassment. Normally my tires are not loud, it's just in the section of I-196 from downtown East out to I-96. Once I get to the new asphalt just past the Maryland Ave bridge, it's like a breath of fresh air for my ears.

I'm serious about your tires / vehicle. I thought 196 rode better, better than I expected. If they had diamond ground it like they did 131 north of 196 5-10? years ago, it would be smooth as glass .

I remember when they opened 131 north of 17 Mile Road, the noise from the new concrete (since covered up with asphalt) caused people to pull over and stop to get out to look at their cars to see if something was wrong . As the pavement "aged" the noise got less.

[Libertarian]

Free Beer and Hot Wings brought up the Paul Moore letter today. Of course they lambasted. They made some good points, I just disagreed with their conclusion on streetcars. The reason I am bringing this up is because I am tired of people like the Paul Moore’s of this world who may have intentions in line with a lot of the UPers, but end up only hurting our cause with these types of letters where opponents can pounce on his line of thinking. I mean, I agree you cannot compare streetcars(he used the word “trolleys” instead of “streetcars” or better yet “fixed-guide-way-system” for God’s sake! Holly misrepresentation!) and the Devos Center. At the same time we cannot try to make the general public believe that a comprehensive mass transit plan will replace cars and at a better cost. In my opinion, we have to stay away from these kinds of comparisons and site examples like Tampa, Little Rock, or Portland. That is a good comparison. Don’t you think?

Again, I agree with where P. Moore was going, I just disagree with how he got there. This just really proves that WE need to start framing this debate instead of opponents to this type of system or worse yet people who agree with us but end up giving critics more firepower. A good place to start would be to get rid of the word “trolley” ASAP!

[Rizzo]

Replacing this talk with the term Light Rail or Rail Transit ? Otherwise people are going to be envisioning more trolley and bolley (Buss trolley.) These people that are criticizing this are those who envision the old timey trolleys. There needs to be more talk of Light Rail Transit or Modern Streetcar. This is a NEW concept to Greater Grand Rapids.

Edited February 27, 2007 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

I don't know, replacing it with Light Rail ? Otherwise people are going to be envisioning more trolley and bolley. There needs to be rail in the name. This is a NEW concept to Greater Grand Rapids.

You're absolutely right Libertarian. But it's hard to control the message "in support of" at this point in time.

I think they (we) should stop using the name "streetcars" even and change it to "light rail streetcars", since there may be a different kind of "light rail" coming to GR in the future. I'm surprised Free Beer and Hot Wings are following this thing so closely. I think they might be interested, yet are looking for the achilles heal to have something to talk about on their show.

[Libertarian]

You're absolutely right Libertarian. But it's hard to control the message "in support of" at this point in time.

I think they (we) should stop using the name "streetcars" even and change it to "light rail streetcars", since there may be a different kind of "light rail" coming to GR in the future. I'm surprised Free Beer and Hot Wings are following this thing so closely. I think they might be interested, yet are looking for the achilles heal to have something to talk about on their show.

You probably are right about them just looking for something to talk about. Unfortunately they are a powerful voice, they are a nationally syndicated radio show that is based in GR. I just wish critics could experience firsthand how truly great a mass transit plan like the one we have been talking about actually is. I mean, when the city came back from their field trip they were enthralled with the idea, at least that was my impression. It seems that some of the momentum since they came back has faded with the GR Press, FBHW, and others’ misrepresentation. I know I am preaching to the choir!

[Rizzo]

Libertarian you make some very interesting points! I think its all going to boil down to educating the public on what the concept is, how it will benefit the area, and how to get it done.

[Libertarian]

One other thing that I was thinking about was what if we came up with a completely new term for our "light rail streetcars."

[GRDadof3]

One other thing that I was thinking about was what if we came up with a completely new term for our "light rail streetcars." If we brainstormed hard enough it seems that we could come up with a truly dynamic name that might be able to shift the debate on one or two words alone. An example, regardless if you agree/disagree with this policy, was when the Republicans coined the word "death tax." Granted this is an extreme example, but if you followed that whole policy debate you can see just how powerful several words can be. People sitting on the fence really got fired up about it after that phrase was lodged into the American lexicon.

Also, think of it this way. If Kent County voters were faced with a ballot proposal it would be nice to have language on that ballot that could help make our argument at the very last minute, right before an undecided voter were to cast their vote.

Just a thought to throw around.

Not to give away my whole shebbang, but I also thought that next year's presidential elections are probably going to be very "Anti-Republican" again like the last mid-term elections were. I don't see Bush's ratings getting any better, in fact, quite the contrary. People will want change, even many Repubs, and Democrats are out for change in a big way. It would be nice to have something on THAT ballot in Fall 2008 for Kent County voters to sink their teeth into, that is "pro-mass transit, pro-environment, reduced oil consumption" when there will most likely be a huge turnout of Democrats who are more likely to support those initiatives.

I'll beat around some name ideas for the light rail ******cars. If they were part of a metro-wide system, they could also serve as and be called "Neighborhood Connector Light Rail". Sounds cute n cuddly, warm fuzzy. Who doesn't want to connect with neighbors? South and North Lines could be Rapid Light Rail, or Commuter Light Rail.

[torgo]

I wouldn't worry too much free beer and hot wings say. Their discussion of local issues stays local, not national. And, something tells me that most people who form their opinions from a radio show aren't going to vote on light rail.

Changing the name of it to frame the conversation is an interesting thought, and isnt a bad idea. I think for something like light rail to garner a lot of support from "average joes", it will need to be branded in a very specific and positive manner. I would venture to say that most people don't view the idea of transit, trains, or even streetcars in a positive light. At least, not positive enough to get them out of their cars.

[gvsusean]

You probably are right about them just looking for something to talk about. Unfortunately they are a powerful voice, they are a nationally syndicated radio show that is based in GR. I just wish critics could experience firsthand how truly great a mass transit plan like the one we have been talking about actually is. I mean, when the city came back from their field trip they were enthralled with the idea, at least that was my impression. It seems that some of the momentum since they came back has faded with the GR Press, FBHW, and others

[torgo]

they afre nationally syndicated??? where are they played?

GR, Albany, Maine, South Carolina, Nashville, Jersey, New Hampshire (according to their site)

[GaryP]

I think it's easier to use word play to turn public opinion negative than positive, but I'd like to hear some possibilities.

[Explorer55]

IUs 131, I-96 & 196 in GR were built in the early 60's. Some sections are still in service, granted they need repair but it has been in service for over 40 years. Not too shabby for a pavement stucture carrying far more traffic with much heavier trucks than the orginal design ever figured on.

I can assure you, if you haven't noticed, that I-96, and any Interstate freeway of that or even later eras, has been through resurfacing, repaving, rehabilitation, and reconstruction (the "4Rs"), sometimes several times over. There's not much left of the original roadway. And btw, we are in a deep hole as a nation in maintaining and preserving our highway/bridge infrastructure (not to mention other types of infrastructure). If you really want to get into it, you can read a report that goes to Congress every two years titled, "Status of Nation's Highways, Bridges, and Transit": http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/2004cpr/.

Edited February 28, 2007 by Explorer55

[GRDadof3]

Setting aside the high cost of free parking argument as it equates to what it really costs a car driver to operate his/her vehicle, there is also the aspect of "footprint" or land usage needed for using cars.

In watching some of that video about that E55 posted, he mentioned the word "terminals" (as in rail terminal) for your car, which basically consist of all the places needed to store your car for much of the day. That might include your driveway, garage, parking space at work, parking at the store. The two main ones where YOU alone have "terminals" devoted to you as a driver are your driveway/garage, and your parking space at work (if you work outside the home).

If you take the estimated 30,000 workers and students who drive into downtown daily, using the average parking space of 9' x 20' (zoned by the city), then these 30,000 cars require 5,400,000 square feet of "land" to park on. Some of this comes in the form of parking ramps to preserve at least some of the land, but much of it comes in the form of surface lots. 5,400,000 square feet equates to about 123 acres, and would cover much of the area that we call "downtown" if laid out in surface lots:

(burgundy is the 16 acre riverfront property, red is the amount of parking needed for downtown workers and students, blue is the ITP station and a make believe Seward light rail station).

So 5,400,000 square feet are needed to handle 30,000 cars a day (1 per driver)

In comparison, the ITP tent is about 30,000 square feet, and the average light rail station is about 22,000 square feet:

52,000 square feet of space that can easily handle not only 30,000 workers and students/day, but probably at least double that as downtown grows. That equals 1% of space required for mass transit "terminals", as opposed to 5,400,000 car "terminals".

What I need to do now is figure out how much office, residential, institutional and retail space could be hypothetically built on this 5.4 Million square feet, and approximately how much tax revenue could be generated. But I can say that 123 acres at a value of $2 Million/acre equates to $246 Million.

It's mind-boggling how much land downtown is being "wasted".

[Rizzo]

Talk about perspective, Although, maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

[torgo]

That is an excellent analysis, GrDad.

[Explorer55]

Hey, GRdadof3, maybe you should contact Dr. Shoup and let him know what you came up with! He's appreciate having his work so applied.

[GRDadof3]

Hey, GRdadof3, maybe you should contact Dr. Shoup and let him know what you came up with! He's appreciate having his work so applied.

That's a good idea. I have another shocker.

Here is a segment of downtown from Pearl Street South to Wealthy. Red is surface parking, blue is ramp space (open or proposed). There may even be some that I missed. Would everyone agree it's probably 30 - 40% of downtown space devoted to parking spaces. Think how awesome it would be if even half of this were devoted to open green space, parks, trees. It would be a forest downtown.

I'll do this for every segment of downtown.

If downtown were to grow by just 10,000 students/workers, etc., where would we come up with 1.7 Million square feet to house their cars?

[grrwymg]

That's a good idea. I have another shocker.

Here is a segment of downtown from Pearl Street South to Wealthy. Red is surface parking, blue is ramp space (open or proposed). There may even be some that I missed. Would everyone agree it's probably 30 - 40% of downtown space devoted to parking spaces. Think how awesome it would be if even half of this were devoted to open green space, parks, trees. It would be a forest downtown.

I'll do this for every segment of downtown.

If downtown were to grow by just 10,000 students/workers, etc., where would we come up with 1.7 Million square feet to house their cars?

That picture is sick. I never imagined that there was *THAT* much parking in the CBD. That doesn't even include metered spots on the street... Sheesh.

[GRDadof3]

Sorry to post this right after lunch, but here goes the West side (red is surface lots, blue is ramp space). I'm not suggesting that all this should or could be developed, just giving some perspective as to how much is devoted to car "terminals" downtown. The orange square again is a proposed light rail station of about 22,000 square feet, which can easily serve as a terminal for 15-30,000 people/day.

[GRDadof3]

Monroe North and North CBD. Obviously the convention center, Health complex and Calder are not exclusively parking, but parking is a strong component of their construction. We have a parking problem downtown alright. People have the perception there isn't enough of it, yet there is way too much of it. We're going to reach the breaking point soon and something will have to give. With current trends, either downtown will plateau and will no longer be desirable because of lack of parking and the cost to build parking spaces, and it will then begin to decline, or people will refuse to work, live or go to school downtown.

[GRDadof3]

Spectrum area, East CBD and St. Mary's Areas

[Raildudes dad]

I can assure you, if you haven't noticed, that I-96, and any Interstate freeway of that or even later eras, has been through resurfacing, repaving, rehabilitation, and reconstruction (the "4Rs"), sometimes several times over. There's not much left of the original roadway. And btw, we are in a deep hole as a nation in maintaining and preserving our highway/bridge infrastructure (not to mention other types of infrastructure). If you really want to get into it, you can read a report that goes to Congress every two years titled, "Status of Nation's Highways, Bridges, and Transit": http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/2004cpr/.

I have to disagree with you, there's still a lot of the original concrete pavement still in place in Kent County.

The I-96 concrete pavement has been reconstructed from 28th Street to I-69. It also has been reconstructed from Bristol west to the bituminous surface west of Coopersville. The original concrete has been covered with microsurfacing from 28th Street to the Grand River. (First micro work in this area way back when) It has bituminous surfacing over the orignal concrete from the Grand River to Bristol.

The US 131 concrete pavement has been overlaid with bituminous surfacing from somewheres south of Shelbyville north to 76th Street. The concrete has been reconstructed from 76th Street to 44th Street. The original concrete pavement has been covered with microsurfacing from 44th to 28th (also first micro work in this area and has held up really well). The original concrete is still in place from 28th Street north to 10 Mile Road. It has had numerous joint repair projects both contracted out and some done by the DOT's maintenance agency, the Kent County Road Commission. About 5-10 years ago after the last joint project, it was diamond ground and was real smooth. The concrete pavement has been reconstructed on 131 from 10 Mile Road to 17 Mile Road. The original concrete pavement north of there to north of Pierson has been overlaid with bituminous surfacing . North of there, the original concrete is still in place without any surface treatment.

I-196 is the original concrete pavement from the East Beltline to Market Street (GRD3's favorite piece ). It's had joint repairs but most of the slab is still the original built in the 60's. The original concrete has been overlaid with bituminous surfacing from Market Street west to Holland as well as a short piece from 131 to Lane Ave.

I watched 196 east of the river being built by riding my bike there during the summer (no drivers license) and have lived in GR all my life except for Sept -June in 1968, 69, 70, and 71 when I lived in Hougton MI. If you'd like to review the as-built plans on file for these roadways at my workplace, I'd be happy to show them to you.

Trivia: The portable batch plant for 196 was on Service Drive between Plymouth & Ball. LW Edison was the contractor. It was paved with a batch mixer on tracks. Dump trucks with separate compartments for cement, sand and aggregate dumped into a skip which raised to load the mixer. Water was added, the raw materials mixed and then dumped in front of the screed which rode on the steel forms (No slip form pavers in those days). It's amazing what they did in those days with no computerized electronics and only rudimentary hydraulics.

[tamias6]

GRdad, thanks for the big wake up call. Seeing that much of the core devoted in some way, shape, or form to automotive storage is absolutely horrifying. If half of all that space you pointed out were developed into real buildings, the city could cure its budget shortfalls in a heartbeat. Therefore, we as a metropolitan area would be a bunch of hapless losers if we don't support the idea of bringing in Mass Transit ASAP!