Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[tamias6]

Oh no. I'm not throwing in the towel. Not by any means. What I am saying is that there is a chance that we will be playing to a very tough crowd and that advocates need to have back up plans to offer should we find ourselves banging our heads up against the proverbial brick wall in the effort to convince state and local leaders in implimenting mass transit in the area. Therefore in addition to our preferred visions, we also need to have alternatives in place to throw down onto the table if all efforts to promote the preferred vision are to no avail. That way our efforts don't end up becoming an all or nothing fight. If the state and local leaders say "no" to our preferred visions and they mean "no" we will be able to quickly regroup and submit any predetermined alternatives.

From what I have seen of BRT systems, the bus approaches a stoplight in a diamond HOV lane, and stops. Just prior to the light changing to green for standard traffic, the bus gets a "priority green light", which allows the bus to slide in front of the cars at the stop light into the normal traffic lane. Next stoplight, same thing. The kind of BRT where there is a dedicated ROW for just buses is very expensive, and you might as well look for a railroad line to run light rail on.

But here's something I figured out from some research about a BRT line along S. Division down to 54th or 60th, vs. a light rail line on the Norfolk Southern freight line down to 54th:

- The proposed BRT line on S. Division has 15 stations proposed between 60th and downtown, intersects 155 side-streets, has over 25 traffic lights, over 500 business drives, and will mix with 12,000 vehicles a day that drive South Division

- A South Light Rail Transit (LRT) line only intersects and has at-grade crossings at 6 streets, Albany St SW, 32nd, 36th , 44th, 50th and 54th Streets, has the FRA signalled right of way at all of them, and could operate well with only three stops: 54th, 36th, and downtown.

But I wouldn't quite throw in the towel on light rail yet tamias6. For one thing, there is a lot of empirical evidence that expanded mass transit can be used as an economic development tool. So it's actually an investment where each $1 spent returns $1.50 - $6.00 in economic development.

Another thing to consider is that even though the current RAPID routes run pretty well, the "long squiggly line" that they follow does not suit most suburban commuters very well, and can double the amount of time it takes to make a trip to work or school. Light rail mitigates this by acting like an "artery" between population or employment nodes, with connector "veins" (streetcars or trams) that connect to more densely populated areas within those nodes.

Edited March 19, 2007 by tamias6

[Explorer55]

Oh no. I'm not throwing in the towel. Not by any means. What I am saying is that there is a chance that we will be playing to a very tough crowd and that advocates need to have back up plans to offer should we find ourselves banging our heads up against the proverbial brick wall in the effort to convince state and local leaders in implimenting mass transit in the area. Therefore in addition to our preferred visions, we also need to have alternatives in place to throw down onto the table if all efforts to promote the preferred vision are to no avail. That way our efforts don't end up becoming an all or nothing fight. If the state and local leaders say "no" to our preferred visions and they mean "no" we will be able to quickly regroup and submit any predetermined alternatives.

Here are a few quick and dirty suggestions from me late on a Sunday night:

!) The Rapid needs to build a market among commuters, particularly those from the outlying areas of GR and the suburbs. Those commuter routes should include park and ride lots or local bus routes that feed centralized pick up points that then take relatively fast and direct routes into the center city or other major employment centers or schools. It would be more appealing to the commuters if the commuter, peak hour buses were primarily coach type buses or similar vehicles, particularly if those buses travel more than just a few miles.

2) Institute discount passes for regular commuters and try to get the employers and/or colleges on board to subsidize or outright buy the passes. Eco-Passes are probably the way to go (if you need more info on what those are, you'll probably just be able to do a Google search and find all sorts of examples).

3) The Rapid should offer a guaranteed ride home program, so if someone has to get home or back to where his/her vehicle is parked, the Rapid will reimburse or outright pay for the cab fare or have some other arrangement. That way, commuters are more assured of handling an emergency without having a vehicle at work/school.

4) Encourage businesses located in the same neighborhood/corridor (especially if parking and traffic congestion are chronic issues) to set up transportation management organizations that actively support alternative modal choices (including carpools, vanpools, walking, biking, telecommuting, staggered work hours, etc.) for workers, students, customers, and whomever else might be convinced to travel (or conduct business) some other way besides in a SOV. There are lots of reasons for employers, colleges and others to do so - recruitment (e.g., save their employees/students $$, provide alternatives to those who may not be able to travel consistently via SOV), save costs on expanding/maintaining parking lots, and do something nice for the environment (a good marketing tool, particularly with global warming gaining more legitimacy across the political spectrum). If GR doesn't have any to use as an example, there are lots of those organizations out there. They are also referred to as transportation management associations, not to be confused with transportation management areas....

If the general public begins to see the benefits of these lower cost transit and alternative transportation options, then they may be more willing to support more sophisticated and expensive transportation options.

[GRDadof3]

Here are a few quick and dirty suggestions from me late on a Sunday night:

!) The Rapid needs to build a market among commuters, particularly those from the outlying areas of GR and the suburbs. Those commuter routes should include park and ride lots or local bus routes that feed centralized pick up points that then take relatively fast and direct routes into the center city or other major employment centers or schools. It would be more appealing to the commuters if the commuter, peak hour buses were primarily coach type buses or similar vehicles, particularly if those buses travel more than just a few miles.

2) Institute discount passes for regular commuters and try to get the employers and/or colleges on board to subsidize or outright buy the passes. Eco-Passes are probably the way to go (if you need more info on what those are, you'll probably just be able to do a Google search and find all sorts of examples).

3) The Rapid should offer a guaranteed ride home program, so if someone has to get home or back to where his/her vehicle is parked, the Rapid will reimburse or outright pay for the cab fare or have some other arrangement. That way, commuters are more assured of handling an emergency without having a vehicle at work/school.

4) Encourage businesses located in the same neighborhood/corridor (especially if parking and traffic congestion are chronic issues) to set up transportation management organizations that actively support alternative modal choices (including carpools, vanpools, walking, biking, telecommuting, staggered work hours, etc.) for workers, students, customers, and whomever else might be convinced to travel (or conduct business) some other way besides in a SOV. There are lots of reasons for employers, colleges and others to do so - recruitment (e.g., save their employees/students $$, provide alternatives to those who may not be able to travel consistently via SOV), save costs on expanding/maintaining parking lots, and do something nice for the environment (a good marketing tool, particularly with global warming gaining more legitimacy across the political spectrum). If GR doesn't have any to use as an example, there are lots of those organizations out there. They are also referred to as transportation management associations, not to be confused with transportation management areas....

If the general public begins to see the benefits of these lower cost transit and alternative transportation options, then they may be more willing to support more sophisticated and expensive transportation options.

We're not sure that the public won't support a more sophisticated and expensive transportation option. They (we) have never been asked. The times that the RAPID has asked taxpayers to support millage increases to fund enhancements, I believe they've received every single one.

I would be interested in hearing more about express bus services, especially for areas like Jenison/Georgetown Township, where you spend an awful lot of time just trying to get through Main Street in Jenison just to get to I-196. Are they embraced by commuters? I've ridden several different heavy and light rail systems, but I have to say I've never ridden a commuter bus.

[NorthCoast]

We're not sure that the public won't support a more sophisticated and expensive transportation option. They (we) have never been asked. The times that the RAPID has asked taxpayers to support millage increases to fund enhancements, I believe they've received every single one.

I would be interested in hearing more about express bus services, especially for areas like Jenison/Georgetown Township, where you spend an awful lot of time just trying to get through Main Street in Jenison just to get to I-196. Are they embraced by commuters? I've ridden several different heavy and light rail systems, but I have to say I've never ridden a commuter bus.

Thats an excellent point. The Jenison/Georgetown problem is really a two fold problem.

a)The township has experienced tremendous growth over the past 20 years. Jenison itself is projected to have a population around 24,000 (the US census data for this region is flawed, the area in which they measure population for Jenison is way too small). Georgetown Township is an additional 18,000 people. Add in Hudsonville's 9,000 and that makes for 51,000 people. Projections for this area indicate the population to increase to around 62,000 (Georgetown-Hudsonville) by 2025.

b)Grand Valley State University's student population has exploded in the past decade. The university is home to now around 24,000 students. Many of these students are commuter students who have to drive through Jenison in order to get to the highway. From about 3pm to 6pm you can usually count on sitting through 2 or 3 light cycles idling on Cottonwood and then doing the same thing at the Main Street/CSX light.

Construction on the new Baldwin ramp begins this year and will only increase traffic problems in the area:

-Baldwin will be widened to 5 lanes from Main Street east to the new ramp

-Yet another intersection will have to be constructed at Main and Baldwin

-Main Street will be resurfaced

-The bridges over Rush and Buck creeks will have to be reconstructed

-Merge/Weave lanes will have to be added

-The ramps themselves will have to be constructed

The ramps proposed purpose is to ease the traffic flow in this area by providing alternative access to I-196. Emergency vehicles will also be able to access the highway/township easier and without disruption of waiting for trains which still often travel the CSX line. However, while I don't disagree with the construction of this ramps I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment that is going to solve the area's traffic problems. Honestly, I think things are going to end up being worse. There seems to be a prevailing thought that traffic will be equally be split between the two ramps but I believe the split is going to be a far larger and unequal split along the lines of 70/30 with the heaviest traffic being in the area of the new ramp.

Traffic is a huge issue in this corridor and there is virtually no bus service. I'm a firm believer that if any sort of mass transit program is to succeed it will have to incorporate the suburban communities.

[GRDadof3]

Thats an excellent point. The Jenison/Georgetown problem is really a two fold problem.

Honestly, I think things are going to end up being worse. There seems to be a prevailing thought that traffic will be equally be split between the two ramps but I believe the split is going to be a far larger and unequal split along the lines of 70/30 with the heaviest traffic being in the area of the new ramp.

Traffic is a huge issue in this corridor and there is virtually no bus service. I'm a firm believer that if any sort of mass transit program is to succeed it will have to incorporate the suburban communities.

I tend to agree. I think the new ramp will make living in Georgetown Township more desirable. There is still plenty of available land going out Cottonwood, Port Sheldon, Chicago Dr., Bauer, and Baldwin past 48th and beyond. All this area is going to continue to explode because the schools are decent and land is inexpensive. All those 61,000+ people are funneled to two access points to I-196 to get elsewhere in the metro area: Chicago Drive and Port Sheldon/44th. The Hudsonville on-ramp for many is still back-tracking quite a bit to head downtown. I know, we lived right in the middle of the Georgetown Township Bermuda Triangle near 44th and 14th Ave.

It would be pretty cool if there was a commuter rail system set up that ran from Holland Twp, with a stop at Zeeland, a stop in downtown Hudsonville, a stop near Target/Meijer in Jenison, a stop maybe near downtown Grandville or 28th Street area, and then on to downtown on the rail line. Talk about pretty much a straight shot and a lot less stressful than driving it (plus trains ALWAYS get the priority right of way over cars. I've never seen a train wait for car traffic to clear) . Or an express shuttle bus that leaves from the area next to Target in Jenison and goes downtown.

That principle could and should be investigated for every major corridor heading into downtown that has existing freight rail lines.

[NorthCoast]

I tend to agree. I think the new ramp will make living in Georgetown Township more desirable. There is still plenty of available land going out Cottonwood, Port Sheldon, Chicago Dr., Bauer, and Baldwin past 48th and beyond. All this area is going to continue to explode because the schools are decent and land is inexpensive. All those 61,000+ people are funneled to two access points to I-196 to get elsewhere in the metro area: Chicago Drive and Port Sheldon/44th. The Hudsonville on-ramp for many is still back-tracking quite a bit to head downtown. I know, we lived right in the middle of the Georgetown Township Bermuda Triangle near 44th and 14th Ave.

It would be pretty cool if there was a commuter rail system set up that ran from Holland Twp, with a stop at Zeeland, a stop in downtown Hudsonville, a stop near Target/Meijer in Jenison, a stop maybe near downtown Grandville or 28th Street area, and then on to downtown on the rail line. Talk about pretty much a straight shot and a lot less stressful than driving it. Or an express shuttle bus that leaves from the area next to Target in Jenison and goes downtown.

The funny thing is there's already enough existing infrastructure to make this happen. The line could either be run over top of the existing CSX rail line or could be run right down the middle of Chicago drive (west to Holland and east to Granville Ave/Grand Rapids) with some sort of skywalk to provide pedestrian access a la the El in Chicago. There is vacant land behind both Target and the Post Office which could adequately serve as some sort of park and ride and/or transit space. This same line could also spur development along Grandville Avenue as well as spark interest in redeveloping Chicago Drive through Wyoming.

Imagine being able to ride the Chicago Drive Line beginning in Grand Rapids with stops in Grandville, Jenison, Hudsonville, Zeeland, and Holland connecting to a lakeshore line running up 31 to places like Saugatuck, Grand Haven, Muskegon, etc.

Edited March 19, 2007 by j3shafer

[Raildudes dad]

The funny thing is there's already enough existing infrastructure to make this happen. The line could either be run over top of the existing CSX rail line or could be run right down the middle of Chicago drive (west to Holland and east to Granville Ave/Grand Rapids) with some sort of skywalk to provide pedestrian access a la the El in Chicago. There is vacant land behind both Target and the Post Office which could adequately serve as some sort of park and ride and/or transit space. This same line could also spur development along Grandville Avenue as well as spark interest in redeveloping Chicago Drive through Wyoming.

Imagine being able to ride the Chicago Drive Line beginning in Grand Rapids with stops in Grandville, Jenison, Hudsonville, Zeeland, and Holland connecting to a lakeshore line running up 31 to places like Saugatuck, Grand Haven, Muskegon, etc.

Someone (GVMC?) needs to do an Origination / Destination survey at Main & Baldwin to see where folks are coming from & going to. Then we can difinatively discuss whether rail is an option or not. If they're coming from Allendalke and going to Cutlerville / Dutton, rail to downtown won't be used. This CSX line is the least feasible to be used for commuter, too many freights.

[GRDadof3]

The funny thing is there's already enough existing infrastructure to make this happen. The line could either be run over top of the existing CSX rail line or could be run right down the middle of Chicago drive (west to Holland and east to Granville Ave/Grand Rapids) with some sort of skywalk to provide pedestrian access a la the El in Chicago. There is vacant land behind both Target and the Post Office which could adequately serve as some sort of park and ride and/or transit space. This same line could also spur development along Grandville Avenue as well as spark interest in redeveloping Chicago Drive through Wyoming.

Imagine being able to ride the Chicago Drive Line beginning in Grand Rapids with stops in Grandville, Jenison, Hudsonville, Zeeland, and Holland connecting to a lakeshore line running up 31 to places like Saugatuck, Grand Haven, Muskegon, etc.

Yeah, just imagine:

But RDD is right on that particular line.

[NorthCoast]

Someone (GVMC?) needs to do an Origination / Destination survey at Main & Baldwin to see where folks are coming from & going to. Then we can difinatively discuss whether rail is an option or not. If they're coming from Allendalke and going to Cutlerville / Dutton, rail to downtown won't be used. This CSX line is the least feasible to be used for commuter, too many freights.

I would say that most of the traffic from GVSU is students going to and from classes that live on the west/southwest/south side of Grand Rapids....Grandville, Wyoming, Byron Center, etc. Most of the students who live to the west usually take one of the county roads south to Chicago Drive or use Lake Michigan or Fillmore. I would expect the amount of residents commuting to Grand Rapids on the other hand to be a significant amount. I'm ashamed to admit there is also a signifcant amount who actually get on the highway to go to Grandville rather than take the surface streets. With the increase in downtown activity and growth I still do believe that some sort of mass transit route is still a very good idea for this area.

Concerning CSX, that was a bit of an outlandish, pipe-dream option. I basically assumed that the freight operation would be ended. I don't know anything about freight economy or CSX in general but I would hazard a guess that this is unlikely.

[GRDadof3]

I would say that most of the traffic from GVSU is students going to and from classes that live on the west/southwest/south side of Grand Rapids....Grandville, Wyoming, Byron Center, etc. Most of the students who live to the west usually take one of the county roads south to Chicago Drive or use Lake Michigan or Fillmore. I would expect the amount of residents commuting to Grand Rapids on the other hand to be a significant amount. I'm ashamed to admit there is also a signifcant amount who actually get on the highway to go to Grandville rather than take the surface streets. With the increase in downtown activity and growth I still do believe that some sort of mass transit route is still a very good idea for this area.

Concerning CSX, that was a bit of an outlandish, pipe-dream option. I basically assumed that the freight operation would be ended. I don't know anything about freight economy or CSX in general but I would hazard a guess that this is unlikely.

He's not saying it's impossible. In order to run passenger rail on freight lines, you have to coordinate all the freight traffic to non-passenger hours (middle of the night usually). Some of the rail in Grand Rapids it would be extremely easy, since there are only a couple of freight runs a day. This section though is pretty heavily traveled by freight trains. It would be a logistical challenge (nightmare), and potentially more expensive because of that. If you built a new rail down the median of Chicago Drive, then you don't have to worry about the freight. But then again, where does it go when it enters downtown Grandville, which is already pinched for space. I guess it could switch to embedded track mixed with traffic for that 1.2 - 1.5 miles:

River Line DEMU light rail in downtown Burlington, NJ

Could and should be part of a longer range transit master plan. I'll bet Grandville and Hudsonville would love it, since Grandville is trying to revive their downtown:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ss....xml&coll=6

And Hudsonville is updating their master plan and apparently they want a future "transit stop" as part of their downtown master plan.

[NorthCoast]

Would it be possible to construct a LTR line above the CSX line? Has something like that even ever been done?

Grandville is in the middle of passing through plans to decrease the size of Chicago Drive through their downtown with on the street parking. So really the only option would be for them to abandon these existing plans and add an embedded track or get really creative and develop some sort of elevated system. Unless of course there was an alternate route that the line could take once it got into Grandville. I'm not sure what area, if any, would work though.

I would actually love to see a transit stop in Jenison in the area of Chicago Drive south of land currently used by the defunct Handy Andy big box store which is now home to an AutoZone, Dollar Store, and Hobby Lobby. It would be great to see that land redeveloped into a huge park and ride spot with some mixed in retail. It would be in walking distance of Meijer as well as provide a shot in the arm for redevelopment in the area. The only thing is that some sort of bridge would be required across the tracks and westbound Chicago Drive to the platform. The Michigan turns would also have to be addressed.

And as if there aren't enough interesting factors in this fantasy, there is also the idea that there is serious consideration that Chicago Drive may one day be merged back into a single roadway in the Jenison/Hudsonville area. With the westbound lanes being abandoned and destroyed. This could also provide for some alternative space to put a rail line.

Chicago Drive through Jenison

(I don't know how to transfer images from Yahoo! Maps to UP)

Edited March 19, 2007 by j3shafer

[GRDadof3]

Would it be possible to construct a LTR line above the CSX line? Has something like that even ever been done?

Grandville is in the middle of passing through plans to decrease the size of Chicago Drive through their downtown with on the street parking. So really the only option would be for them to abandon these existing plans and add an embedded track or get really creative and develop some sort of elevated system. Unless of course there was an alternate route that the line could take once it got into Grandville. I'm not sure what area, if any, would work though.

I would actually love to see a transit stop in Jenison in the area of Chicago Drive south of land currently used by the defunct Handy Andy big box store which is now home to an AutoZone, Dollar Store, and Hobby Lobby. It would be great to see that land redeveloped into a huge park and ride spot with some mixed in retail. It would be in walking distance of Meijer as well as provide a shot in the arm for redevelopment in the area. The only thing is that some sort of bridge would be required across the tracks and westbound Chicago Drive to the platform. The Michigan turns would also have to be addressed.

And as if there aren't enough interesting factors in this fantasy, there is also the idea that there is serious consideration that Chicago Drive may one day be merged back into a single roadway in the Jenison/Hudsonville area. With the westbound lanes being abandoned and destroyed. This could also provide for some alternative space but put a rail line.

Sure, anything's possible, but is it practical? You're talking about $Billions of dollars for an elevated track. Try to think of something that would cost around $2 - $5 Million/mile and it might be do-able, using as much of the current infrastructure as possible. I'm with you that a park-n-ride and pedestrian friendly station in Jenison near Meijer might rejuvenate that area. You may even be able to put up some mid-rise apartments and townhomes in that area if it were served by light rail. A lot of amenities already in that area that could serve these new residents. Same with downtown Hudsonville. Rebuild that little town from the inside out.

For a great example of this, just check out the METRA served towns of Evanston, Winnetka, Glencoe, Highland Park, etc. in Illinois and their great little downtowns near the METRA stations:

http://maps.yahoo.com/beta/#mvt=h&q1=g...03699&mag=5

Downtown Coopersville, Rockford and Ada are also great little downtowns that have either active rail or rail ROW running right through them. Coopersville and Ada rail is used very seldomly for freight. And they too are competing against the 28th Streets and Alpine Ave's of the world for retail and vibrant life. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the leaders of these small towns would jump at the chance to be a part of a metro-wide transit system, if they can connect to it via stations in their respective downtowns.

[NorthCoast]

Sure, anything's possible, but is it practical? You're talking about $Billions of dollars for an elevated track. Try to think of something that would cost around $2 - $5 Million/mile and it might be do-able, using as much of the current infrastructure as possible. I'm with you that a park-n-ride and pedestrian friendly station in Jenison near Meijer might rejuvenate that area. You may even be able to put up some mid-rise apartments and townhomes in that area if it were served by light rail. A lot of amenities already in that area that could serve these new residents. Same with downtown Hudsonville. Rebuild that little town from the inside out.

For a great example of this, just check out the METRA served towns of Evanston, Winnetka, Glencoe, Highland Park, etc. in Illinois and their great little revived downtowns:

http://maps.yahoo.com/beta/#mvt=h&q1=g...03699&mag=5

Downtown Coopersville, Rockford and Ada are also great little downtowns that have either active rail or rail ROW running right through them.

Psssh.......money....who needs that?

At least if big whigs out there ever start talking about this, we'll have the basics covered for them.

Edited March 19, 2007 by j3shafer

[tamias6]

How about this. Take the east bound line and run it on Chicago drive while taking the west bound line and running it on the parking lots behind the buildings on the north side of Chicago drive.

Something like this....

Would it be possible to construct a LTR line above the CSX line? Has something like that even ever been done?

Grandville is in the middle of passing through plans to decrease the size of Chicago Drive through their downtown with on the street parking. So really the only option would be for them to abandon these existing plans and add an embedded track or get really creative and develop some sort of elevated system. Unless of course there was an alternate route that the line could take once it got into Grandville. I'm not sure what area, if any, would work though.

I would actually love to see a transit stop in Jenison in the area of Chicago Drive south of land currently used by the defunct Handy Andy big box store which is now home to an AutoZone, Dollar Store, and Hobby Lobby. It would be great to see that land redeveloped into a huge park and ride spot with some mixed in retail. It would be in walking distance of Meijer as well as provide a shot in the arm for redevelopment in the area. The only thing is that some sort of bridge would be required across the tracks and westbound Chicago Drive to the platform. The Michigan turns would also have to be addressed.

And as if there aren't enough interesting factors in this fantasy, there is also the idea that there is serious consideration that Chicago Drive may one day be merged back into a single roadway in the Jenison/Hudsonville area. With the westbound lanes being abandoned and destroyed. This could also provide for some alternative space to put a rail line.

Chicago Drive through Jenison

(I don't know how to transfer images from Yahoo! Maps to UP)

[NorthCoast]

You probably could get away with abandoning that portion of Division between Chicago Drive and the tracks. I can't imagine a single LTR line would take up too much space from the pictures I've seen. The only thing you'd have to do is convince the business/property owners in the DT area that the parking they are losing would be compensated by the LTR line and even possible stop being located close to their shops. Some of the lost parking could probably be re-located to that little strip of Franklin between the tracks and Chicago Drive. That too could be abandoned.

I'd still be interested to see if the embedded track between lanes would work. If I remember correctly, that portion of Chicago Drive is 4 lanes total. There is a fair amount of traffic in the area but I wouldn't really say its a problem, especially with all the side streets and alternative routes. Adequate parking already exist behind those buildings on Chicago Dr., especially those on the southside.

If I was more computer drafting savvy I'd whip a design for it but I'm much better with a pad of paper and a pen.

Edited March 19, 2007 by j3shafer

[tamias6]

For the west bound lane, the lost of parking concerns would be midigated by the DDA's masterplan to reconfigure that stretch of Chicago Dr. into three lanes plus paralel parking row's. For the east bound line, LRT trains take up about same amount of space as a car lane, maybe a bit less. So given that the Trains pictured in GRdad's posting have braking and acelaration performce on par with city buses or atleast semi trackor trailers, the east bound line could be embeded into eastbond lane of Chicago Dr. The only drawback would be interaction with automotive traffic. But Grandville's "DT" is less than a mile long. Also conjestion would be greatly freed up by the planned center turn lane esp. at the Wilson Ave. Intersection no matter if the road had four thru lanes or the planed two.

You probably could get away with abandoning that portion of Division between Chicago Drive and the tracks. I can't imagine a single LTR line would take up too much space from the pictures I've seen. The only thing you'd have to do is convince the business/property owners in the DT area that the parking they are losing would be compensated by the LTR line and even possible stop being located close to their shops. Some of the lost parking could probably be re-located to that little strip of Franklin between the tracks and Chicago Drive. That too could be abandoned.

I'd still be interested to see if the embedded track between lanes would work. If I remember correctly, that portion of Chicago Drive is 4 lanes total. There is a fair amount of traffic in the area but I wouldn't really say its a problem, especially with all the side streets and alternative routes. Adequate parking already exist behind those buildings on Chicago Dr., especially those on the southside.

If I was more computer drafting savvy I'd whip a design for it but I'm much better with a pad of paper and a pen.

[GRDadof3]

For the west bound lane, the lost of parking concerns would be midigated by the DDA's masterplan to reconfigure that stretch of Chicago Dr. into three lanes plus paralel parking row's. For the east bound line, LRT trains take up about same amount of space as a car lane, maybe a bit less. So given that the Trains pictured in GRdad's posting have braking and acelaration performce on par with city buses or atleast semi trackor trailers, the east bound line could be embeded into eastbond lane of Chicago Dr. The only drawback would be interaction with automotive traffic. But Grandville's "DT" is less than a mile long. Also conjestion would be greatly freed up by the planned center turn lane esp. at the Wilson Ave. Intersection no matter if the road had four thru lanes or the planed two.

It is the same width as a standard car lane. Here is the same River Line in New Jersey on another embedded track section. Cars can also drive in the "rail lane", so you're not losing any traffic lanes.

(BTW, I'm not a big fan of the look of the River Line trains, but Stadler Rail makes other GTW's that are pretty sharp looking like THIS ONE) And no overhead wires.

It's not the most ideal situation to run a commuter system like this on city streets, but like you said, it's one mile out of a 20 mile system (Holland > Downtown GR), and basically two traffic lights.

[Rizzo]

For this concept I'd look at the Nashville Project. They did a commuter system on what many are calling bare bones -- just to hit home the real affordability to these things. It was covered early on in our preceding and really sparked the transit talk.

I don't think many people here realize the affordability to this -- its not going to cost us what other communities are being punched out for.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Rizzo

[tamias6]

I'm glad to see that the train lines could be embeded in both lanes of a reconfigured Chigago Dr. That offers more options.

Anyway, Given the mentioning of heavy use of the Grandville line by frieght trains sparking off this dialogue, has any one considered the width the ROW containing the railine? Is it wide enough to lay one or two more rail lines if the existing rail line proved too busy to be shared? If it is wide enough Chicago Dr. could be bypassed with "DT" Grandville served by a station.

The other thing I'm wondering is how busy is "too busy". When I lived in Chicago by a rail line, fright tains, Amtrak, and Chicago's "L" trains whized by non stoped 24/7. All said a train past by the apartment about every five to ten minutes. When I worked at Standale Lumber's Grandville Yard for a stint, I worked in a building that sat about 30 feet from the rail line. When I would paid attention to the sound of trains it seemed that frequency of trains going by was way less, about one every half hour at the most. If Chicago has trains going by every five to ten minute then surely an LRT service can be squeezed onto the existing rail line in Grandville.

[NorthCoast]

I'm glad to see that the train lines could be embeded in both lanes of a reconfigured Chigago Dr. That offers more options.

Anyway, Given the mentioning of heavy use of the Grandville line by frieght trains sparking off this dialogue, has any one considered the width the ROW containing the railine? Is it wide enough to lay one or two more rail lines if the existing rail line proved too busy to be shared? If it is wide enough Chicago Dr. could be bypassed with "DT" Grandville served by a station.

The other thing I'm wondering is how busy is "too busy". When I lived in Chicago by a rail line, fright tains, Amtrak, and Chicago's "L" trains whized by non stoped 24/7. All said a train past by the apartment about every five to ten minutes. When I worked at Standale Lumber's Grandville Yard for a stint, I worked in a building that sat about 30 feet from the rail line. When I would paid attention to the sound of trains it seemed that frequency of trains going by was way less, about one every half hour at the most. If Chicago has trains going by every five to ten minute then surely an LRT service can be squeezed onto the existing rail line in Grandville.

According to the images from REGIS and Ottawa County I've looked at, there seems to be enough room for 2 additional lines in the existing ROW. However, it appears the ROW was not officially acquired until after alot of the existing development b/c some runs right through parking lots. But its definitely a possibility.

[Raildudes dad]

I'm glad to see that the train lines could be embeded in both lanes of a reconfigured Chigago Dr. That offers more options.

Anyway, Given the mentioning of heavy use of the Grandville line by frieght trains sparking off this dialogue, has any one considered the width the ROW containing the railine? Is it wide enough to lay one or two more rail lines if the existing rail line proved too busy to be shared? If it is wide enough Chicago Dr. could be bypassed with "DT" Grandville served by a station.

The other thing I'm wondering is how busy is "too busy". When I lived in Chicago by a rail line, fright tains, Amtrak, and Chicago's "L" trains whized by non stoped 24/7. All said a train past by the apartment about every five to ten minutes. When I worked at Standale Lumber's Grandville Yard for a stint, I worked in a building that sat about 30 feet from the rail line. When I would paid attention to the sound of trains it seemed that frequency of trains going by was way less, about one every half hour at the most. If Chicago has trains going by every five to ten minute then surely an LRT service can be squeezed onto the existing rail line in Grandville.

The CSX ROW is wide enough for 2 tracks. I'm not sure of the separation required between freight & passenger tracks. I think it's based on speed but haven't seen it in black & white.

The line is "too busy" for all the freight at night. If freight & passenger are co-mingled, it requires Amtrak type equipment plus some hefty signaling. LRT equipment cannot be co-mingled with freight trains.

Freight & Amtrak share the same track in Chicago (part of Amtrak's on-time issue ) The L operates on track exclusively for the L - no freight.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Raildudes dad

[GRDadof3]

Here's an idea based on what you were suggesting j3shafer, run a Grandville downtown bypass (only a block off of Chicago Drive) right alongside the freight line. Drop a station and park-n-ride in downtown Grandville somewhere.

Actually, it might work better at Division since there is a traffic light there for the light rail to divert off of Chicago Dr.

[NorthCoast]

Actually, it might work better at Division since there is a traffic light there for the light rail to divert off of Chicago Dr.

That looks great. I'm sure Grandville would love an idea like this. The potential for redevelopment in their downtown as well as the area between 28th Street and Chicago Drive is enormous.

[tamias6]

I guess great minds do think alike.

From a post I made upstream on this thread....

Here's an idea based on what you were suggesting j3shafer, run a Grandville downtown bypass (only a block off of Chicago Drive) right alongside the freight line. Drop a station and park-n-ride in downtown Grandville somewhere.

Actually, it might work better at Division since there is a traffic light there for the light rail to divert off of Chicago Dr.

[GRDadof3]

Forget Portland, we need a delegation to head to Ottawa, Ontario to see the O-Train light rail system in action. I'll bring the pretzels and pop!

- 8 km (5 mile) system, with five stations, all on existing freight rail (MAP of light rail line)

- $21 Million for freight track refurbishment, rolling stock and 5 new stations, one with park-n-ride, or essentially $4 Million/mile.

- Uses (3) three-car Bombardier Talent DMU's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGl5N9gif34. Because of its push/pull capability, the front and back look the same ICYWW. 2 trains used in regular service, one for backup.

- 2 year operating costs: $8 Million

- Each train has a capacity for 285 people sitting and standing.

- 15 minute headway between trains, 12 minutes from end-to-end of the system (O Train Sample Schedule)

- Only one section of double track at the Carleton Station midway point for trains to "flip/flop" (the one heading to the downtown Bayview station stays on one track, and the one heading toward the Greenboro station takes the other track).

- Opened in 2001, 6000 riders a day in 2002, now up to 10,000 riders a day in 2006 (phenomenal for a 5 mile system)

- Connects a suburban shopping area, bus connector and park-n-ride at one end, to downtown Ottawa and a second bus connector at the other end. You can actually see the train on this GOOGLE Sat Image at the Confederation Station, and can track it in either direction for a mile or two (even where it tunnels under the Rideau Canal about 2 miles North of that station).

- Density (and climate) of Ottawa and GR metro areas are very similar