Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[DwntwnGeo]

Forget Portland, we need a delegation to head to Ottawa, Ontario to see the O-Train light rail system in action. I'll bring the pretzels and pop!

- 8 km (5 mile) system, with five stations, all on existing freight rail (MAP of light rail line)

- $21 Million for freight track refurbishment and 5 new stations, one with park-n-ride, or essentially $4 Million/mile.

- Uses (3) three-car Bombardier Talent DMU's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGl5N9gif34. Because of its push/pull capability, the front and back look the same ICYWW. 2 trains used in regular service, one for backup.

- 2 year operating costs: $8 Million

- Each train has a capacity for 285 people sitting and standing.

- 15 minute headway between trains, 12 minutes from end-to-end of the system (O Train Sample Schedule)

- Only one section of double track at the Carleton Station midway point for trains to "flip/flop" (the one heading to the downtown Bayview station stays on one track, and the one heading toward the Greenboro station takes the other track).

- Opened in 2001, 6000 riders a day in 2002, now up to 10,000 riders a day in 2006 (phenomenal for a 5 mile system)

- Connects a suburban shopping area, bus connector and park-n-ride at one end, to downtown Ottawa and a second bus connector at the other end. You can actually see the train on this GOOGLE Sat Image at the Confederation Station, and can track it in either direction for a mile or two (even where it tunnels under the Rideau Canal about 2 miles North of that station).

- Density (and climate) of Ottawa and GR metro areas are very similar

Pretty cool stuff! I just hope we can get the existing rail companies to allow joint use of their tracks in the area.

[Rizzo]

That's a tuffy. I wonder if a tax relief zone could be established on the property where the lines would run. That might relief NorfolkSouthern of tax liability and burden in the Grand Rapids area.

[tamias6]

M-6 is roughly 19 miles long from end to end. It had a projected cost of $420 million (Real costs came in under budget so I'm still trying to find real numbers) That's expensive for yet another car sewer and kindling for more sprawl. What's funny is that based on the cost rundown of the O-train line, $4 million dollars a mile and $11 million dollars per train, provided in the quotes below, MDOT could have used the existing rails running parallel with US-131 to build a roughly 22 mile long commuter line served by six trains of the O-train configuration from 76th street all the way to W Division St. in Rockford for about $154 million dollars. Of course the price would vary a bit depending on our region's needs and red tape. But with a rough estimate like that compared to the cost of M-6, its just a matter of time before citizens and those in every level of political power realize the virtues of mass transit.

Forget Portland, we need a delegation to head to Ottawa, Ontario to see the O-Train light rail system. I'll bring the pretzels and pop!

- 8 km (5 mile) system, with five stations, all on existing freight rail (MAP of light rail line)

- $21 Million for freight track refurbishment and 5 new stations, one with park-n-ride, or essentially $4 Million/mile.

- $11 Million for (3) three-car Bombardier Talent DMU's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGl5N9gif34. Because of its push/pull capability, the front and back look the same ICYWW. 2 trains used in regular service, one for backup.

- Each train has a capacity for 285 people sitting and standing.

- 15 minute headway between trains, 12 minutes from end-to-end of the system (O Train Sample Schedule)

- Only one section of double track at the Carleton Station midway point for trains to "flip/flop" (the one heading to the downtown Bayview station stays on one track, and the one heading toward the Greenboro station takes the other track).

- Opened in 2001, 6000 riders a day in 2002, now up to 10,000 riders a day in 2006 (phenomenal for a 5 mile system)

- Connects a suburban shopping area, bus connector and park-n-ride at one end, to downtown Ottawa and a second bus connector at the other end. You can actually see the train on this GOOGLE Sat Image at the Confederation Station, and can track it in either direction for a mile or two (even where it tunnels under the Rideau Canal about 2 miles North of that station).

- Density (and climate) of Ottawa and GR metro areas are very similar

[GRDadof3]

M-6 is roughly 19 miles long from end to end. It had a projected cost of $420 million (Real costs came in under budget so I'm still trying to find real numbers) That's expensive for yet another car sewer and kindling for more sprawl. What's funny is that based on the cost rundown of the O-train line, $4 million dollars a mile and $11 million dollars per train, provided in the quotes below, MDOT could have used the existing rails running parallel with US-131 to build a roughly 22 mile long commuter line served by six trains of the O-train configuration from 76th street all the way to W Division St. in Rockford for about $154 million dollars. Of course the price would vary a bit depending on our region's needs and red tape. But with a rough estimate like that compared to the cost of M-6, its just a matter of time before citizens and those in every level of political power realize the virtues of mass transit.

You quoted my rundown before I had a chance to revise it. The O-Train was budgeted at $29 Million, and came in at $21 Million, including rolling stock (3 trains)!

http://www.tc.gc.ca/programs/environment/U...l%20Project.pdf

Enjoy reading it (I certainly did).

Editor note: That's probably in Canadian dollars, and with the exchange rate, it would probably have been $25 - $28 Million.

[Rizzo]

With that kind of price you would think this concept applied locally would be seriously looked at. What would be really interesting on any kind of line in GR is the economic development it would create in its corridor. Surely, the startup amount could develop opportunity along the line that would exceed the cost of the line.

Edited March 20, 2007 by Rizzo

[Raildudes dad]

M-6 is roughly 19 miles long from end to end. It had a projected cost of $420 million (Real costs came in under budget so I'm still trying to find real numbers) That's expensive for yet another car sewer and kindling for more sprawl. What's funny is that based on the cost rundown of the O-train line, $4 million dollars a mile and $11 million dollars per train, provided in the quotes below, MDOT could have used the existing rails running parallel with US-131 to build a roughly 22 mile long commuter line served by six trains of the O-train configuration from 76th street all the way to W Division St. in Rockford for about $154 million dollars. Of course the price would vary a bit depending on our region's needs and red tape. But with a rough estimate like that compared to the cost of M-6, its just a matter of time before citizens and those in every level of political power realize the virtues of mass transit.

I posted this over on another thread $650million http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MDOT_M6FACTS_108973_7.pdf

Pretty cool stuff! I just hope we can get the existing rail companies to allow joint use of their tracks in the area.

One leases trackage rights - they don't let one use them for free

[tamias6]

Indeed it was a good read. Grand Rapids really does need to take a look at the O-train. imagine GR's very own O-Train with streetcars in each population center acting as feeders for the line.

You quoted my rundown before I had a chance to revise it. The O-Train was budgeted at $29 Million, and came in at $21 Million, including rolling stock (3 trains)!

http://www.tc.gc.ca/programs/environment/U...l%20Project.pdf

Enjoy reading it (I certainly did).

Editor note: That's probably in Canadian dollars, and with the exchange rate, it would probably have been $25 - $28 Million.

[GRDadof3]

I posted this over on another thread $650million http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MDOT_M6FACTS_108973_7.pdf

One leases trackage rights - they don't let one use them for free

That and insurance costs for running in a mixed environment does push operating costs up a bit, but not prohibitively so. The O-Train has an operating cost of about $4 Million/year, which is not out of line with LRT operating costs. The trains also get better fuel efficiency than buses do, and can be driven by bus drivers (OC Transpo uses bus drivers).

[Raildudes dad]

Forget Portland, we need a delegation to head to Ottawa, Ontario to see the O-Train light rail system in action. I'll bring the pretzels and pop!

I'll borrow a "heavy hauler" and we can bring one of those puppies (O trainset) back home. All we need is Peter's Rapid checkbook or credit card

[Rizzo]

Count me in.

[GRDadof3]

I'll borrow a "heavy hauler" and we can bring one of those puppies (O trainset) back home. All we need is Peter's Rapid checkbook or credit card

I'm there!

[tamias6]

I'll use Sketchup to design some cool looking stations.

I'll borrow a "heavy hauler" and we can bring one of those puppies (O trainset) back home. All we need is Peter's Rapid checkbook or credit card

[Raildudes dad]

I'll use Sketchup to design some cool looking stations.

No over track shelters please . We're using freight tracks so the freight railroad will need to be able to move high / wide loads past these stations. 18' side clearance from center of track and 25' overhead clearance

[Rizzo]

No over track shelters please . We're using freight tracks so the freight railroad will need to be able to move high / wide loads past these stations. 18' side clearance from center of track and 25' overhead clearance

18' from center? I do know that some standard side clearances run about a 10-12 feet on the Norfolk line.

Edited March 21, 2007 by Rizzo

[civitas]

It wasn't that long ago when we installed tracks in Division and only a relative few years ago when we took them out.

What a shame!

[Rizzo]

Basic Sub-station platform:

Basic platforms in A Central Station:

[Raildudes dad]

Basic Sub-station platform:

Basic platforms in A Central Station:

Hey Rizzo - don't forget - single track- and we need to get high - wides thru them at night. Figure on the 36 X 25 box. We might be able to reduce a foot or 2 but not much more.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Raildudes dad

[NorthCoast]

The next question is would all stations be uniform or would they each be designed to be unique to the area in which they serve?

[GRDadof3]

The next question is would all stations be uniform or would they each be designed to be unique to the area in which they serve?

I wouldn't expect any of the other stations to be more than a level boarding platform and simple shelters:

I have seen in other cities where they either bring in some design features to the station indicative of the area it serves, or corporations or other groups will donate artwork for the station.

I'd really like to see the stations have a lot of GREEN/LEED/Sustainability features, such as pervious pavement for the park-n-ride lots, recycled concrete, glass, metal and other materials, maybe solar power for kiosks and light fixtures, etc..

[Veloise]

I wouldn't expect any of the other stations to be more than a level boarding platform and simple shelters:...

I have seen in other cities where they either bring in some design features to the station indicative of the area it serves, or corporations or other groups will donate artwork for the station.

...

http://www.thepeoplemover.com/WE-LL-TAKE-Y...E!.id.2.htm

Check out the Art in Stations button.

[Rizzo]

Hey Rizzo - don't forget - single track- and we need to get high - wides thru them at night. Figure on the 36 X 25 box. We might be able to reduce a foot or 2 but not much more.

But 18' from center, is that actual regulation or to appease NS and CSX? They run their traffic pass structures, sinage, etc that don't even make 15', sometimes its just 10 feet. These LRT vehicles that are ideal for this situation have a width of (9' - 8") or around 58" from center. If you wanted level boarding via a platform you'd need to have some form of telescoping or folding platform to bridge a 13' 2" gap

Never mind, you could design a platform on rails and push them into position so they meet the gap requirements. After transit operations you could push them back to meet freight requirements. I'm not sure how that will play on budget though.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Rizzo

[Raildudes dad]

But 18' from center, is that actual regulation or to appease NS and CSX? They run their traffic pass structures, sinage, etc that don't even make 15', sometimes its just 10 feet. These LRT vehicles that are ideal for this situation have a width of (9' - 8") or around 58" from center. If you wanted level boarding via a platform you'd need to have some form of telescoping or folding platform to bridge a 13' 2" gap

Never mind, you could design a platform on rails and push them into position so they meet the gap requirements. After transit operations you could push them back to meet freight requirements. I'm not sure how that will play on budget though.

Not all of NS or CSX routes can handle all high / wides. Transit is going to be a tennant on theses lines so what the RR's "require" is negotiable. They certainly are not going to compromise their ability to move the highest & widest they can now. The clearance is more important above the floor level of a drop deck car. I was more concerned you guys (and gals) didn't design a roof level just above the top of a transit car There's no reason to have support posts real close either. Plus GRD3 & I found cars with "wings" at the doors to fill the "gap" required at floor level

[GRDadof3]

Not all of NS or CSX routes can handle all high / wides. Transit is going to be a tennant on theses lines so what the RR's "require" is negotiable. They certainly are not going to compromise their ability to move the highest & widest they can now. The clearance is more important above the floor level of a drop deck car. I was more concerned you guys (and gals) didn't design a roof level just above the top of a transit car There's no reason to have support posts real close either. Plus GRD3 & I found cars with "wings" at the doors to fill the "gap" required at floor level

Yeah, but they weren't that wide. 18' from center seems excessive. The Bombardier Talent is 12.14 feet wide, so you'd need a 13' retractable "gang-plank" to span the difference. The wings we saw were only 15".

This MDOT document says clearance is 9' from the center:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/rcbook_55515_7.pdf

I agree there's no need to have a shelter roof that extends over the top of the transit cars.

[Rizzo]

My platforms don't have shelter over rail... they don't even cover the entire platform width, only the waiting area, not the embarkment section. why would you? Also, The platform is 200' long to accomidate level boarding througout. Added support structures every 25' for asthetics.

[tamias6]

Before posting, I had to reposition and resize the station in my rendering so that the edge of my canopy is on the same plain as the edge of the boarding platform. As for clearance, 18' from center sounds like over kill. A train would have to be hauling loads the size of an average house to justify that much clearance. But, could the 18' from center, for a total of 32', be the specified width of the Right of Way legally required to accommodate a rail line?