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Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids


GRDadof3

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On top of that the opposition to the sales tax got wailed on. I think it was in the upper 70s that voted in favor of it. However, I think the thousands of riders on opening day was novelty -- let it wear off and see where it is in the year as Dad said. Never mind novelty, some 100,000 is astounding! Check out this article from Charlotte.

In the short term Grand Rapids should get some light-rail equipment on loan to run through the metro area for a demonstration project. I believe Boise or some other communities in Idaho played around with light-rail a few years ago -- I heard it really spurred interest in a future project.

A demonstration project could run for about a week or so and followed up by town hall meetings to see how the metro area should proceed. The train wouldn't even need to run many miles, but maybe just a couple to deliver the concept.

Edited by Rizzo
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ITP has moved on properties south of (and under) Wealthy that look to be adequate for a car barn and small maintenance facility. ITP looks to be killing two birds with one stone as Pere Marq will probably be rerouted under Wealth St. into the boarding terminal. The startup costs should be lower as ITP is in possession of quite a bit of space in that area.

Commuter light-rail may be a different story, transit operators can contract maintenance and storage through public-private partnerships. Both CSX and NS (and smaller rail operators) operate considerable storage yards that can be contracted (leased) to house, or maintain HRVs or LRVs. This of course can alleviate capital costs need for new land and facilities and result in lower startup costs.

The property south of the current RCS is for a future move of the AMTRAK line, not for streetcars.

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One additional idea to toss into the mix would be for communities in the metro area to redo their master plans to concentrate growth and density along existing bus routes. Doing this would reduce the likelihood of the RAPID moving bus routes by bringing growth to the bus routes instead of vice versa. In addition it would make it easier to replace bus service with fixed guide way based mass transit options since the density would already be in place to support beefier mass transit.

:camera: . . . . a Kodak moment for GR transit if ever there was one!! Tamias get's it!! He just described defacto TRANSIT-ORIENTED DEVELOPMENT (TOD) and he described it in the text-book pattern of how thinking communities with the will to build in a TOD fashion phase from buses to rail.

Have that cat join me (though he'll have to be in the audience - sorry) at all the future Great Transit/Grand Tomorrows (GT2) fixed guideway meetings at ITP. That, of course, is our friendly neighborhood streetcar/BRT/LRT planning committee for GR Proper.

Edited by metrogrkid
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....

A demonstration project could run for about a week or so and followed up by town hall meetings to see how the metro area should proceed. The train wouldn't even need to run many miles, but maybe just a couple to deliver the concept.

In fact this is what was done in Charlotte way back in the late 90's to get people thinking about mass transit on trains. The suburban town of Huntersville worked with the Federal DOT to get a demonstration train to run between Huntersville and Charlotte. Though it cost $4-5 to ride the train was packed with 1000s of riders during its very short run here. They used an experimental DMU passenger train on loan from Europe. Sadly I don't think the DOT does these kinds of things anymore, but anything is possible if there is enough local interest.

In response to that they re-built one of the trolley lines that was shutdown in the 1930's. Here are some photos of that which I poste here several years ago. As you can see it was popular. That eventually led to the LRT shown above.

IMG_1618.jpg

IMG_1627.jpg

IMG_1628.jpg

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In fact this is what was done in Charlotte way back in the late 90's to get people thinking about mass transit on trains. The suburban town of Huntersville worked with the Federal DOT to get a demonstration train to run between Huntersville and Charlotte. Though it cost $4-5 to ride the train was packed with 1000s of riders during its very short run here. They used an experimental DMU passenger train on loan from Europe. Sadly I don't think the DOT does these kinds of things anymore, but anything is possible if there is enough local interest.

In response to that they re-built one of the trolley lines that was shutdown in the 1930's. Here are some photos of that which I poste here several years ago. As you can see it was popular. That eventually led to the LRT shown above.

I did a post with an idea for a demo project, which I think is really doable. There's already decent infrastructure in place branching out from the city to a northwest suburb. The line is currently being used for themed trains. I figured it may be possible for a project like this to be funded with general money by both Kent and Ottawa counties. Plus monies from the transit agency with private donations covering the gap. However, there always seems to be talk of funding shortages at the local and state level that private donations may be needed to cover a majority of the costs i.e. sponsorships.

From the sounds of things in Charlotte a demo can be an effective way to generate interest.

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There's already a normal bus line running down 28th Street. The thing about that is, however, it serves only businesses along 28th Street.. there isn't much housing there. Most traffic on Route 28 is fed by other routes which serve business and residential areas. Also with the huge setback of all the stores along 28th Street, the walking distance between transit and storefront would be too great for non-RAPID regulars to bother using it, I think.

28th Street is designed specifically for the car. If that can slowly be changed, then an upgraded route on 28th Street may work, but as it is right now I just can't see it being useful.

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I don't know how we missed this, but hurrah for Petoskey! Petoskey's officials are trying to move on state owned rail right-of-way through its downtown to run a passenger trolley.

I have to say that I'm not sure if this is a trolleybus or a bona fide trolley. I'll try to get more info on this later.

EDIT: Here's some more information. Looks like it might be a trolleybus.

Edited by Rizzo
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There's already a normal bus line running down 28th Street. The thing about that is, however, it serves only businesses along 28th Street.. there isn't much housing there. Most traffic on Route 28 is fed by other routes which serve business and residential areas. Also with the huge setback of all the stores along 28th Street, the walking distance between transit and storefront would be too great for non-RAPID regulars to bother using it, I think.

28th Street is designed specifically for the car. If that can slowly be changed, then an upgraded route on 28th Street may work, but as it is right now I just can't see it being useful.

Well perhaps say if they do end up putting a divided highway on 28th st like the beltline and left a larger medium between the roads that could decrease the setback somewhat- depends on all what is in the way I suppose.

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The 5 year State Transportation Plan is under Review.

Your Comments are needed.

This is a quote from Mlive.com

"The state Department of Transportation will hold meetings beginning today to review its five-year transportation plan.

Meetings are scheduled for 3:30 p.m. today at Big Rapids City Hall; 4 p.m. Thursday in Muskegon; and 4 p.m.
Saturday at the MDOT Grand Rapids Transportation Service Center, 2660 Leonard St. NE.

The plan for 2008-2012
covers everything from highway construction to rail and airport improvements
.

A look at the plan will be available beginning Saturday at michigan.gov/mdot5yearplan."

I would like to attend but I will be out of town.

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Just in from the "breaking news" section of Mlive

"The Rapid transit board is expected today to approve spending nearly $360,000 for a consultant's study."

"A preliminary plan shows streetcars resembling bullet trains on a 2.4-mile track through downtown, sharing the roads with cars. They would connect the Van Andel Arena, DeVos Place convention center, museums, bars, hotels and other attractions."

The complete breif article can be read here:

GR streetcar study ready to get green light

I hope there will be an additional article with more information in tomorrow's press.

To revive this study being proposed by the RAPID to study a streetcar alignment, there is this update in the Business Journal this morning:

The task force has selected a 1.6-mile streetcar alignment that runs along Monroe Avenue from the Sixth Street Bridge south to where Monroe turns into Market Avenue and continuing to south of the U.S. 131 overpass. It turns off at Bartlett Street.

"This is just a draft

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Yes :D but that wasn't what I was alluding to.

Didn't the Rapid have an option on the southern corner of that intersection. It would connec with their current bus garage. If this buy this souther corner maybe this would be where staging/garage work can be done? It would keep mechanics and tools all in the same general area? :dontknow:

edit: Also doesn't Bartlett also line up with the southern bus entrance/exit to the main terminal?

Edited by DwntwnGeo
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Didn't the Rapid have an option on the southern corner of that intersection. It would connec with their current bus garage. If this buy this souther corner maybe this would be where staging/garage work can be done? It would keep mechanics and tools all in the same general area? :dontknow:

edit: Also doesn't Bartlett also line up with the southern bus entrance/exit to the main terminal?

Yes, I would imagine all of that is part of the task force's thinking. But more on the "potential development front" that Peter Varga mentions:

"That's partially why the focus was Monroe north of the freeway and Market south of Fulton where there are two large areas that have the potential for development," Varga added.

If you recall, the original ideas for an alignment showed it turning around Louis Street and proceeding down Ottawa to the ITP Station. Earlier slide from presentation

Now the idea puts it running past two significant areas, Market and Fulton, and the recently purchased parcels by Secchia:

2083610281_1ab9e2d19f_o.jpg

Not to mention the 16 acre city-owned land on Market Ave, that is still for sale to the right bidder.

Also, I haven't seen the plans from the task force, but my guess is that it doesn't go all the way down Market to Bartlett and then turn East, because of the tight corner at Market and Bartlett that would make a streetcar turn prohibitive (that corner is almost a 45 degree angle). I'm guessing it swings up Finney and then turns on Bartlett, which would be more like a 160 degree and 90 degree turn (respectively). (I'd place a wager on that one :)

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And this could potentially be why Secchia bought those properties. Not because of a planned development, but for the potential of being developed and the potential of being near a streetcar line.

My only worry about this new proposed line is ridership numbers. It seems with this line, the ridership traffic would be mostly novelty unless something were to be developed at Market/Fulton VERY soon after.

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Don't worry -- I don't think I'd call this novelty. If people rode purely for the fun of it, then maybe. The line still connects to ITP's bus terminal so it would be multi-modal and provide a real transit function.

It seems as though the right kind of people own the right kind of property downtown. Looks as if they might have been the "community input." :thumbsup: Or, this is just ITP thinking that any vacant property has potential and what better pieces of land than Market and Fulton.

Still, DMJM Harris might propose a more effective route that provides not only higher ridership, but also development opportunity.

Edited by Rizzo
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And this could potentially be why Secchia bought those properties. Not because of a planned development, but for the potential of being developed and the potential of being near a streetcar line.

My only worry about this new proposed line is ridership numbers. It seems with this line, the ridership traffic would be mostly novelty unless something were to be developed at Market/Fulton VERY soon after.

Novelty may be the least thing to have any meaningful impact on this allignment when you consider that ITP's GT2 Steering Committee selected the Monroe/Market corridor to have IMMEDIATE economic development spin-off just as was the case with the Portland model's two-block radius from its alignment. This corridor is genius because of where the venues and readily developable real estate are that are ripe for integration into the streetcar's mixed-use station sites (i.e. - built into Central Station, the BOB/Courtyard Marriott, Rosa Parks Circle/National City Center Bldg., Amway Grand Plaza, DeVos Place/Calder Plaza, 6th Street Bridge Park/Cambridge House bldg., the upcoming Monroe North hotel site AND the high-profile potential mixed-use development sites at Bartlett/Market, Rhonda Tire site, the Market/Grandville triangle site, the Dan DeVos/Market & Fulton lot (the original Metro Center concept site), the Post Office/Olds Manor/GRPress sites and the Trowbridge lot/old North Monroe Department of Corrections Halfway House site).

With all of the above in-developped with streetcar station-based vertical housing, retail, entertainment and office/institutional uses, ITP/The Rapid will be able to expediently (within 5-years) do what is expected of them by the USDOT: show the Feds that transit money invested here will have high-profile residual economic effects and is a sound business decision. 'Nuf said? :shades:

Edited by metrogrkid
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To revive this study being proposed by the RAPID to study a streetcar alignment, there is this update in the Business Journal this morning:

The task force has selected a 1.6-mile streetcar alignment that runs along Monroe Avenue from the Sixth Street Bridge south to where Monroe turns into Market Avenue and continuing to south of the U.S. 131 overpass. It turns off at Bartlett Street.

"This is just a draft

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I think this is a good place to start. I can't read the GRBJ article, did it say anything about single or double track? Or how many stops and their locations?

I would like to see it go a little further North on Monroe. I thought we they were thinking 2-2.4 miles. Extending it to Monroe and Ottawa would make it 2 miles, and going all the way to Leonard would be about 2.2. The further it goes the more riders it can draw from, and if we don't have enough riders we'll never get the funds to expand it, so I'd like to see it be as long as possible initially. Plus in that area there are a lot of development opportunities.

Considering they want to run six streetcars its definitely going to be double track -- so it will be a loop. The amount of streetcars, frequency, and number of stations would simply require tons of passing sidings which I'm betting would be really expensive and unnecessary. With any proposal I hope that it loops around a few blocks instead of running two sets of track down one roadway. Lets spread the track around so it can be used for a real purpose -- circulating.

By the way, ITP has a nice little webpage devoted to anything streetcar: http://www.ridetherapid.org/about/streetcarstudy/ same for the BRT route.

Here's the updated proposed lines from ITP:

2084952696_45c60e1205_o.png

Edited by Rizzo
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Considering they want to run six streetcars its definitely going to be double track -- so it will be a loop. The amount of streetcars, frequency, and number of stations would simply require tons of passing sidings which I'm betting would be really expensive and unnecessary. With any proposal I hope that it loops around a few blocks instead of running two sets of track down one roadway. Lets spread the track around so it can be used for a real purpose -- circulating.

By the way, ITP has a nice little webpage devoted to anything streetcar: http://www.ridetherapid.org/about/streetcarstudy/ same for the BRT route.

Here's the updated proposed lines from ITP:

2084952696_45c60e1205_o.png

Wow, I guess they are thinking of rounding that corner at Market and Bartlett. It's only preliminary I know, so we'll see. The Business Journal article says it is proposed to be 1.6 miles. (edit: n/m, I see at the bottom corner of that map it says "3.2 track miles" round trip).

Here were just some of the development opportunities I could think of from the old alignment. Pretty similar to the newly proposed alignment. Obviously much of that will be dictated by the market:

372362424_3914b2533c_b.jpg

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