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Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids


GRDadof3

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I figured that a streetcar line going north on Monroe was the obvious choice but my hope was that they'd have at least a future line going East up Health Hill. Anyone know why the choice for that is the BRT?

They claim that the cost to ascend Michigan Street Hill straight up is cost-prohibitive, especially with the Division Ave bridge. That's why they show that one route on there reaching Health Hill via College. I still think Barclay up behind GRCC would be the best way to go (hit Health Hill and all those GRCC parkers at the same time).

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I would prefer it if instead of running down Monroe only, it was looped with a block's width, using Ottawa and Monroe. I think having visual streetcar presence right next to the Arena's entrance would be a huge boost. The current Monroe/Market route loses that, and I think many arena-goers would fail to realise there is streetcar there available to them to take them to area resturaunts.

Or, it could at least make a jog down Louis to Ottawa, then down Fulton back to Market.

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I would prefer it if instead of running down Monroe only, it was looped with a block's width, using Ottawa and Monroe. I think having visual streetcar presence right next to the Arena's entrance would be a huge boost. The current Monroe/Market route loses that, and I think many arena-goers would fail to realise there is streetcar there available to them to take them to area resturaunts.

Or, it could at least make a jog down Louis to Ottawa, then down Fulton back to Market.

That will be abated with a streetcar station integrated into the skywalk connection at the Dan DeVos parking lot at Market/Fulton (which will at some point become itself integrated into a larger development there). That skywalk juncture is just two climate-controlled skywalks away from VAArena.

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I like the alignment shown in the ITP study because it hits on quite a few areas ripe for major development while still being close to existing high draw venues. I also like the idea of aligning the BRT line along much of the proposed street car line for double coverage.

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I like the alignment shown in the ITP study because it hits on quite a few areas ripe for major development while still being close to existing high draw venues. I also like the idea of aligning the BRT line along much of the proposed street car line for double coverage.

I noticed that too and I wondered how they would handle two alignments on Monroe, the streetcar and the BRT.

More photos from Charlotte's LRT system that started revenue service this week:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=898494

(just after a sporting event downtown)

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=898843

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I noticed that too and I wondered how they would handle two alignments on Monroe, the streetcar and the BRT.

It will be interesting to see some street level drawings. I wonder if the BRT and Streetcar will be able to use the same plateform stops on Monroe :dontknow: Do we know where on the street the BRT and streetcars will run? Will they run along the outter road right of way along the curb or sidewalk or will they run in the middle of the street with crossings to the sidewalks.

Edited by DwntwnGeo
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It will be interesting to see some street level drawings. I wonder if the BRT and Streetcar will be able to use the same plateform stops on Monroe :dontknow: Do we know where on the street the BRT and streetcars will run? Will they run along the outter road right of way along the curb or sidewalk or will they run in the middle of the street with crossings to the sidewalks.

I noticed that too and I wondered how they would handle two alignments on Monroe, the streetcar and the BRT.

All accept for one road on both lines are at least 4 lanes wide. Perhaps HOV only lanes with embedded rails would be implemented to meet the needs of both BRT and Streetcar lines.

Edited by tamias6
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It will be interesting to see some street level drawings. I wonder if the BRT and Streetcar will be able to use the same plateform stops on Monroe :dontknow: Do we know where on the street the BRT and streetcars will run? Will they run along the outter road right of way along the curb or sidewalk or will they run in the middle of the street with crossings to the sidewalks.

Most of these modern streetcars such as Skoda's T10 (Portland's) are low floor so from ground to floor is just under 14 inches. I don't remember where I read it, but I believe ITP wants to put in station platforms along the BRT route (might explain the high costs.) This tells me they might have buses with medium or high floors. Although, in some cases buses have options where they can lower the bus to near curb height.

Edited by Rizzo
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As mentioned earlier in this thread, Seattle's first streetcar system, the South Lake Union Streetcar (S.L.U.T. as it's been lovingly nicknamed) is set to open Dec. 12th. It's a $50.5 Million 2.6 track mile system (1.3 miles each way) through the South Lake Union area linking up with downtown Seattle. Construction started in Summer 2006 and only took about 18 months. Not long ago, this area was predominantly industrial and warehousing space, much like Monroe North.

terry_streetcar.JPG

(notice the old brick streets under the asphalt?)

2089238820_e518fd53ef_o.gif

Some of the developments that have already been constructed in the area that will be served by the streetcar:

2089238948_a778fa9048_o.jpg

2088449797_6676c2e785_o.jpg

It also serves the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center and a UW campus at one end:

2088459091_d1e060f328_o.jpg

The South Lake Union basin area, with the cancer center (orange buildings) in the foreground (beautiful!):

Seattle-Lake-Union-2002tfk.jpg

Links:

http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/stcar_slu.htm

http://www.seattlestreetcar.com/

http://www.soundtransit.org/x1188.xml

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Rapid Growth had me do a video piece on the bus and the GVSU campus connector route this week. We're trying to create a little buzz around transit ahead of the kent county commissioners meeting about transit next week. I just wanted to encourage you to not only go check out the video but also to click through to YouTube and leave a comment or video response in support of transit!

I'll embed the YouTube video here after a few days, but for now you can get the RG page by clicking here.

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Rapid Growth had me do a video piece on the bus and the GVSU campus connector route this week. We're trying to create a little buzz around transit ahead of the kent county commissioners meeting about transit next week.
Very nice video, Andy!

I take the 50 a few times a week living on campus in Allendale to get downtown, and there have been several times this year that the bus has been at full capacity. The driver stops and tells the people at the stops along Lk. Michigan Dr. that they'll have to wait for the next one, because there's absolutely no room left to stuff people in! The student apartment shuttles, the 37 and 48, in Allendale are also full much of the day.

A rail line connecting the campuses, while only a dream, would be incredible ^_^

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It runs every 6 minutes now? Wow, it was busy when I went to GVSU and by the time I thought it was busy when it ran every 20 minutes. If any route is begging for rails with guaranteed instant ridership it's this one.

I think that route would be better served by an express bus (possibly BRT) service. Or maybe even longer articulated buses. Knock 10 - 12 minutes off that route and I'd bet you get a ton more GVSU students considering living downtown.

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A BRT would be nice. Although the schedule book says that Route 50 only makes certain stops, it will stop at any sign with a potential passenger. It shares routes with Standale from Meijer pretty much all the way into downtown, so it can sometimes stop frequently through that section. Make it BRT, have specific points where it will pick up people, and thus increase speed.

Another thing I had pondered recently, was the potential for Express routes. Sort of a step between a normal route and a BRT. Take the normal Blue circle bus stop sign and make an orange circle, and add these to most routes, but have their frequency much lower than that of the blue circle ones. Fewer stops, faster service. Could be an excellent way of determining where to place future BRT lines and where to have the stops, as an orange sign is not nearly as permanant as a BRT stop. If enough time can be shaved off of these trips with such, perhaps these orange express routes could replace the current rush-only short routes. (Which drive me nuts because my destinations always seem to be at the end of a route, beyond the reach of the short route. <<) But anyhow, such express routes could possibly better work with a park-and-ride system as well. If there's much room for community ideas at the ITP Town Hall Meeting, I hope to bring this up among other comments.

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Early on, it seemed the meeting was made out to be in the spirit of town hall. From what I'm hearing its going to be Detroit groups coming to GR to tell the community what they are doing with their transit. (hence East Meets West) I'm not expecting there to be much open comment or officials speaking in depth to questions concerning local transit.

Edited by Rizzo
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I think a rail line connecting GVSU would be fantastic. Standale and Allendale are growing fast and would greatly benefit from this. I almost always have to stand on the 50, it's packed. The only problem would be the reduced amount of riders during the summer, which would make a BRT more feasable. Grand Valley would most likely be willing to pay some of the bill since they already pay the 50, 37 and 48s services.

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I think a rail line connecting GVSU would be fantastic. Standale and Allendale are growing fast and would greatly benefit from this. I almost always have to stand on the 50, it's packed. The only problem would be the reduced amount of riders during the summer, which would make a BRT more feasable. Grand Valley would most likely be willing to pay some of the bill since they already pay the 50, 37 and 48s services.

Yes, but keep in mind that light rail line from downtown to Allendale (11.3 miles) would run you $350 - $400 Million in capital costs, not to mention the costs of building bridges over the Grand River, and the operating costs would probably be about $10 - $15 Million/year for that single line (the entire RAPID system now has a budget of $12 Million/year). It's too bad there aren't existing freight rail lines that run out in that direction. The closest is Coopersville.

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Yes, but keep in mind that light rail line from downtown to Allendale (11.3 miles) would run you $350 - $400 Million in capital costs, not to mention the costs of building bridges over the Grand River, and the operating costs would probably be about $10 - $15 Million/year for that single line (the entire RAPID system now has a budget of $12 Million/year). It's too bad there aren't existing freight rail lines that run out in that direction. The closest is Coopersville.

I know that's a lot of cash to for something fixed, but we all know the amount of development that would spring up along the route (or maybe I should say, accelerate). What amazes me is how people choke on a number like that for a 11.3 mile train route with proven demand, but hardly bat an eye when shown the almost $150 million 131/m6 interchange. If it's a crazy number for a highway (that will need rebuilding in a decade or two), we throw up our hands and say, "had to be done". With something like rail that could last much longer with less maintainanc we say, "it'd be nice... but look how expensive it is!"

I know this is reality, but sometimes I don't understand how the interurban and streetcar systems of old ever got built...

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I don't know about that. Once you get past Wilson and Lake Michigan Drive it's pretty open. It seems like you could build rail out there much cheaper than in the city. Plus, given a park and ride stop on station past GVSU and you could capture the Grand Haven commuter crowd.

Why would it be any less expensive than in the city? It's still a new bed with tracks, or tracks laid in the street, overhead catenary, stations, bridges, etc.. The only savings would be a reduced number of stations between Wilson and GVSU, but that's probably only a savings of $20 Million or so.

Look at the Hiawatha Line in Minneapolis. It generally only travels in the street in downtown Mpls, but the rest of it is separated from road traffic on its own corridor (an old abandoned rail corridor for most of it I believe). The cost for the 12 mile system came in at $715 Million, in 2004 dollars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiawatha_Line

Charlotte's new 9.6 mile Blue Lynx line that just opened came in at $462 Million by the time it was finished:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LYNX_Rapid_Transit_Services

So 11.3 miles for $350 - $400 Million to me might even be conservative, especially in 2012 dollars (or whenever the project were to be put in).

I know that's a lot of cash to for something fixed, but we all know the amount of development that would spring up along the route (or maybe I should say, accelerate). What amazes me is how people choke on a number like that for a 11.3 mile train route with proven demand, but hardly bat an eye when shown the almost $150 million 131/m6 interchange. If it's a crazy number for a highway (that will need rebuilding in a decade or two), we throw up our hands and say, "had to be done". With something like rail that could last much longer with less maintainanc we say, "it'd be nice... but look how expensive it is!"

I know this is reality, but sometimes I don't understand how the interurban and streetcar systems of old ever got built...

I hear what you're saying Andy, but a lot of companies pushed for the M-6 to facilitate their logistics, especially Ottawa County manufacturers who ship their parts to the Eastern side of the State. That's where a lot of support for that came from.

But also, funding for the M-6 came mainly from the State. You probably wouldn't get one penny from the State for a light rail line in the current and near future political climate and economy in Michigan. Really our only two options are federal dollars, for which there is a long and growing list of cities vying for a very small pie (thanks to 7 years of the current administration), or some kind of local public/private partnerships. I don't see private entities pitching in $300 - $400 Million and $15 Million/year for a light rail corridor that people will argue is already well served by bus and heavily paid for not by its riders but by the university. Unless you guys think differently.

I totally agree that it makes sense that you could build a light rail line with basically "instant ridership". It's just unfortunate that Grand Valley was built where it was built. If it were 5 - 6 miles closer, or if there were an old freight rail line to GVSU, I'd be a huge champion for light rail to GVSU. You could kill two birds with one stone: GVSU riders and commuters.

The old interurbans and streetcars were built at a different time, when cities were being built from scratch and there was nowhere near the reliance on automobiles. It was much more ingrained in people's mentalities. Now we're going on 60 years of people who have never seen a working streetcar system. My parents have probably never seen one. Maybe their parents.

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The tracks wouldn't need to be embedded in the road past Standale. I'm not going to argue that it could be done cheaply, I'm just saying it might not be that bad. And, as dragt metioned, compared to highway costs how is it so hard to justify building rails? I mean they just tore up and rebuilt Lake Michigan Drive a few years ago. How much did that cost?

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The tracks wouldn't need to be embedded in the road past Standale. I'm not going to argue that it could be done cheaply, I'm just saying it might not be that bad. And, as dragt metioned, compared to highway costs how is it so hard to justify building rails? I mean they just tore up and rebuilt Lake Michigan Drive a few years ago. How much did that cost?

It was $50 Million for about 7 miles (the complete realignment, expansion, new bridges and boulevards built from 14th Ave to 68th Ave).

You're right that I don't think the rails would be embedded in the roads past Standale. They would work much better and faster traveling down the median, but I would imagine the costs are still the same.

I'm not a HUGE fan of BRT, but I really believe this corridor is a perfect candidate for BRT, probably even better than S. Division. It would accomplish essentially the same thing (increase capacity, decrease travel times and hopefully pick up some commuters), and would be a fraction of the cost of LRT. Plus, Small Starts and Very Small Starts funding for BRT lines is much easier to attain for cities like Grand Rapids, especially on a high volume corridor like LMD. The feds love BRT, and they are much more willing to hand out funding for it.

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