Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[dragt]

It was $50 Million for about 7 miles (the complete realignment, expansion, new bridges and boulevards built from 14th Ave to 68th Ave).

You're right that I don't think the rails would be embedded in the roads past Standale. They would work much better and faster traveling down the median, but I would imagine the costs are still the same.

I'm not a HUGE fan of BRT, but I really believe this corridor is a perfect candidate for BRT, probably even better than S. Division. It would accomplish essentially the same thing (increase capacity, decrease travel times and hopefully pick up some commuters), and would be a fraction of the cost of LRT. Plus, Small Starts and Very Small Starts funding for BRT lines is much easier to attain for cities like Grand Rapids, especially on a high volume corridor like LMD. The feds love BRT, and they are much more willing to hand out funding for it.

Totally agree. No matter how much sense rail makes in the long run, it's just not going to get built anytime soon. So, BRT would be a great step and in fact would be so much easier and cheaper to implement on this route that it'd make a great proof of concept for the area.

I mean, you don't even have to show anything to ride this route already... so that eliminates the need for farebox delays. It'd be easy to streamline the stops, the route already has a relatively small number of stops for it's length. Probably doesn't need dedicated guidway for most of the trip. BUT, signal priority would be a huge timesaver. It's already at the required frequency to qualify, right? Add in articulated buses at peak times and viola, BRT. GVSU is still growing, and more students need to make it DT every year it seems. The current system really doesn't have that much more capacity.

I wonder if you could save $$ on such a long route by decreasing round trip time and thus decreasing the amount of vehicles needed to meet demand?

It'd be really great to have an instant "win" for something like BRT, ya know?

[AlexPKeaton]

Assuming BRT stations can be converted with little effort to streetcar stations in the future I'm all for it. I imagine the platforms would be in the median which would work out because it's a pretty wide road for most of its length already. At GVSU it could veer off into campus with a stop or two. It could easily extend to the west side of Allendale with a park-and-ride as well.

I guess we're all in agreement; we'd love to see light rail/streetcars out to GVSU but it just won't happen anytime soon, but BRT is a pretty good alternative for that route. Why was the Division alignment chosen over this one? Was it simply because GVSU ridership is seasonal? 9 months is a pretty long season.

[Floyd Z]

Signal priority would be awesome. Around 5:00 or 6:00 LMD is extremley congested. I had a class that got done at 5:15 downtown and another starting at 6:00 in Allendale and I would usually get to Allendale at about 6:15 by bus.

If a rail line were to get built, I'm sure GVSU would pay for the annual costs. It would be interesting to see how much they pay a year now for bus service. The line could also be extended all the way to Lake Michigan in the future.

[metrogrkid]

Why would it be any less expensive than in the city? It's still a new bed with tracks, or tracks laid in the street, overhead catenary, stations, bridges, etc.. The only savings would be a reduced number of stations between Wilson and GVSU, but that's probably only a savings of $20 Million or so.

Look at the Hiawatha Line in Minneapolis. It generally only travels in the street in downtown Mpls, but the rest of it is separated from road traffic on its own corridor (an old abandoned rail corridor for most of it I believe). The cost for the 12 mile system came in at $715 Million, in 2004 dollars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiawatha_Line

Charlotte's new 9.6 mile Blue Lynx line that just opened came in at $462 Million by the time it was finished:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LYNX_Rapid_Transit_Services

So 11.3 miles for $350 - $400 Million to me might even be conservative, especially in 2012 dollars (or whenever the project were to be put in).

I hear what you're saying Andy, but a lot of companies pushed for the M-6 to facilitate their logistics, especially Ottawa County manufacturers who ship their parts to the Eastern side of the State. That's where a lot of support for that came from.

But also, funding for the M-6 came mainly from the State. You probably wouldn't get one penny from the State for a light rail line in the current and near future political climate and economy in Michigan. Really our only two options are federal dollars, for which there is a long and growing list of cities vying for a very small pie (thanks to 7 years of the current administration), or some kind of local public/private partnerships. I don't see private entities pitching in $300 - $400 Million and $15 Million/year for a light rail corridor that people will argue is already well served by bus and heavily paid for not by its riders but by the university. Unless you guys think differently.

I totally agree that it makes sense that you could build a light rail line with basically "instant ridership". It's just unfortunate that Grand Valley was built where it was built. If it were 5 - 6 miles closer, or if there were an old freight rail line to GVSU, I'd be a huge champion for light rail to GVSU. You could kill two birds with one stone: GVSU riders and commuters.

The old interurbans and streetcars were built at a different time, when cities were being built from scratch and there was nowhere near the reliance on automobiles. It was much more ingrained in people's mentalities. Now we're going on 60 years of people who have never seen a working streetcar system. My parents have probably never seen one. Maybe their parents.

SOMETIMES REPEATING THINGS WORKS . . . .

At the turn of the millennium (and the century), MBEI's Transportation Study Committee created a vision for what they said would " . . . . enable the majority of the people to access the majority of the metropolitan landscape with maximum independence and minimal personal cost . . . . ". At this time in our metro development when there is definitely a developmental quickening occurring that is surpassing the small expectations of some of our transit planning officials (i.e. - ITP), it is my hope that many of you will press these same officials to re-assess some of the more high-capacity AND grade-seperated (READ: REMOVED FROM STREET LEVEL WITH GRIDLOCK TRAFFIC) fixed-guideway options that were removed from consideration early on (due soley upon perceived expense and what was being proposed for regional development at that time).

That vision document is copied below for all those who missed its placement elsewhere within the UP-GR forums and is based upon a heavy-rail elevated system like Metrorail in DC, MARTA in Atlanta or Skytrain in Vancouver (with three underground stations at GVSU Main Campus Little Mac Bridge ravine, under Medical Hill adjacent to the Medical Hill underground ramp and under Davenport University at Fulton):

LIGHT-RAIL TRANSIT: A Tool for Abating Urban Sprawl in Metro Grand Rapids

by MBEI Transportation Study Committee

March 1, 2000 (Revised May 29, 2000)

Fortune Magazine, in its 1998 listing of America

[Cliff19336]

I noticed that too and I wondered how they would handle two alignments on Monroe, the streetcar and the BRT.

More photos from Charlotte's LRT system that started revenue service this week:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=898494

(just after a sporting event downtown)

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=898843

By combing the alignment over that piece of Monroe they can save the cost of building additional stations. I'm not a big favorite of this alignment. I would have preferred something up Ionia or Ottawa, splitting the downtown more in half. It would give more incentive to develop lots 4 and 5. I think this alignment favors certain wealthy property owners in the Market corridor.

[gvsusean]

By combing the alignment over that piece of Monroe they can save the cost of building additional stations. I'm not a big favorite of this alignment. I would have preferred something up Ionia or Ottawa, splitting the downtown more in half. It would give more incentive to develop lots 4 and 5. I think this alignment favors certain wealthy property owners in the Market corridor.

true... but, it also faveor riverside development which we all want to be a focus... right?

[Libertarian]

I know that's a lot of cash to for something fixed, but we all know the amount of development that would spring up along the route (or maybe I should say, accelerate). What amazes me is how people choke on a number like that for a 11.3 mile train route with proven demand, but hardly bat an eye when shown the almost $150 million 131/m6 interchange. If it's a crazy number for a highway (that will need rebuilding in a decade or two), we throw up our hands and say, "had to be done". With something like rail that could last much longer with less maintainanc we say, "it'd be nice... but look how expensive it is!"

I know this is reality, but sometimes I don't understand how the interurban and streetcar systems of old ever got built...

I cant believe that we are even having this discussion, again. Didn’t we talk about light rail to GVSU several months ago? Andy, I really respect your work, but I would not expect this out of you---it is completely ridiculous to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on something that would have one legitimate station. Would Meijer in Standale be slated for a station? Maybe the Wendy’s would be a better solution. I could quite possibly be wrong, but most light rail projects being developed now are integrating park and rides along busy/frustrating commuting routes with several feasible stops along the way. Just look at “Fastraks.” Furthermore, I think that it would only increase sprawl considering all of the undeveloped land along this route we are discussing. Just because it is a fixed guide way does not mean that there wont be any sprawl. I mean you work for the MLUI, how can you be advocating this type of development? Wouldn’t this be the absolute essence of urban sprawl? I could think of 4 or 5 routes in the GR area that would be much better served, with brownfields crying out to be redeveloped along each of those routes. BRT would be a fine solution

[Rizzo]

I'd rather we conduct a new conversation on laying the foundation for light rail or a more comprehensive transit network. Lets realize that Kent County iwill be voting on a pivotal earmark to fund a needs study. There is a nasty predicament for ITP, North Kent Transit, and RideLink; their funding is dwindling as a result there is rationing of services. Don't worry these are efficient systems, but having to rely on grants to provide a service that is experiencing growth is easy to realize more has to be done. My inkling is that this needs study is going to document the demand and recommendations for action on finding more stable (i.e.predictable) local funding sources.

I have to fulfill my self appointed duties and let you folks know that Disability Advocates, Faith In Motion and other advocates are laying a foundation for a brighter transit future. This foundation requires that the County take action by approving this needs study. These groups plan on lending their support (in numbers) by going to a Kent County Board Meeting Thursday, December 13, Kent County Administration Building, 300 Monroe NW, 8:30am.

If you can't go to this meeting here are more things you can do:

) Contact your county commissioner and let them know your support for funding the county-wide needs study. You can find your commissioner's contact information here.

A couple of things to remember per Disability Advocates:

There is a demonstrated need for such a “needs analysis.”

)Currently, the North Kent Transit system is experiencing severe budget constraints. Just this last year, a limit was placed on the number of trips a person could take in a month so as to make the budget last the whole fiscal year. (Has any one ever told you how many trips you could take in a week or month?)

)The RideLink system (the coordination of Senior Millage funded transportation providers) has had to "ration" the number of people enrolled so as not to be overwhelmed by the huge number of seniors that want this type of service.

)The RideLink provider agencies are at or very near their service capacity-there is no more efficiency to squeeze out of the providers!

)The Rapid's County Connection program continues to add riders. However, this system is funded by a federal grant and the time is running out on it!

It is in Kent County’s economic self-interest to begin planning for a county-wide system.

)Our economy is dependent on connectivity—connecting people to jobs, stores, educational opportunities and social events. How can we afford to exclude a whole group of people who can’t drive or choose not to from our economy?

)Currently, many people cannot get to all the places they need for work or to spend our money or for school or other activities! As an example, a person can’t get from Kentwood to most parts of Cascade for a job.

)Did you know that $8 billion a year leaves Michigan via our importation of energy from other states and countries! Also as gas prices go up, discretionary spending goes down leaving less to be spent locally on other goods and services that have a more positive impact on our economy!

)Public transportation is a sustainable transportation option that the county citizens will use if it is usable and available.

)We all need to be reducing our green house gas emissions! These are surely reduced when we ride together.

)The Rapid service enhancements over the last seven years since the first successful millage campaign have proven without a shadow of a doubt, “If you build it, they will come!” Ridership continues to grow across all segments, so let’s keep it rolling!

Tell your own story!

)How do you use public transportation today?

)How do your family members and friends and neighbors use public transportation today?

) How would you use public transportation in the future? (Example, what kinds of services have you experienced in other communities that you’d use if they were “on the streets” of Kent County?)

Edited December 7, 2007 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

I cant believe that we are even having this discussion, again. Didn

[Rizzo]

Heck, if it gets people interested, anything is valid This thread, no matter how wild or impracticable the ideas, is helping to create momentum. This whole thing is evolving.

[monsoon]

Charlotte's new 9.6 mile Blue Lynx line that just opened came in at $462 Million by the time it was finished:

....

A commentary on this. Some of the costs to build this line were not included in this figure as they were paid for by other projects. For example the bridge that crosses over I-277 (probably about a $35M project) was covered by the earlier Trolley project, and when the city built its new convention center, they included the costs of building the station there in that project.

A more realistic number to use for future comparisons is the planned extension to the Blue Line. It will be 11.4 miles and at the moment CATS is giving an estimate of $750M for it with an option to move the alignment slightly to connect to the Asian mall for another $30M. This line would be about 1/2 in existing rail ROW and for the other half, the city would buy ROW and build the train tracks down it.

[dragt]

I cant believe that we are even having this discussion, again. Didn

[Allison Slater]

It was never just a possibility for rail to Kalamazoo.. it was once a reality. Didn't last long, though. Went up in the late 20s, got abandoned in the Depression.

[Rizzo]

It was never just a possibility for rail to Kalamazoo.. it was once a reality. Didn't last long, though. Went up in the late 20s, got abandoned in the Depression.

The line was completed in 1915 and discontinued in 1928. Some portions of the Interurban allowed 80 to 90 mph. The interurban and streetcar lines in Grand Rapids provide a very fascinating history. A lot of this history can help inspire a new rail transit system in the metro area.

In fact that history already inspired a revival in rail transit. When part of the SW suburban interurban shut down in the mid 20s, there was a citizens task force that resurrected it and got the trains going again. A familiar tune. This citizen's group had some very interesting idea for why rail transit worked. What were their advertisements for why you should ride the rail line? The ability to leave the cars in their garages, avoid traffic and parking costs in the city center....

....sound familiar?

Edited December 8, 2007 by Rizzo

[Allison Slater]

Seems they were ahead of their time. Hopefully we aren't.

[AlexPKeaton]

Furthermore, I think that it would only increase sprawl considering all of the undeveloped land along this route we are discussing. Just because it is a fixed guide way does not mean that there wont be any sprawl. I mean you work for the MLUI, how can you be advocating this type of development? Wouldn

[tamias6]

Based on my observations of the GVSU connector, its screaming to be made into an LRT or BRT line. Bus service is already frequent.

[jas49503]

Based on my observations of the GVSU connector, its screaming to be made into an LRT or BRT line. Bus service is already frequent.

this may not be that far fetched an idea. even though there wouldn't be many stops there is a precedent with Chicago's "El". the yellow route runs out to skokie from evanston. there are no stops and it is quite a distance although I can't tell you exactly what it is. If the ridership supports it then it makes sense to do it. you don't need to have any stops and then it wouldn't contribute at all to suburban sprawl. and if no stations were needed it would dramatically drop the cost.

[tamias6]

Further justifying the need for a GVSU BRT or LRT is Walker's updated master plan for Standale.

Link to Walker's Masterplan Webpage

Basically the jest of the master plan is to transform Standale from a 1950's style suburban commercial corridor into a traditional downtown flanked by medium to high density residential neighborhoods. A BRT or LRT line though the area would do wonders in making Walker's plans for Standale a reality.

[radicaljoy]

Would someone please post a link to the particulars of the transit initiative event? I think that it's today at 10 AM, but I'd like to confirm before heading out. I've spend the last half hour looking for it, but it's gotten buried and the clock is ticking. (That'll teach me what happens when I don't grab my calendar as soon as something comes up.)

Thanks in advance.

.. .. .. .. .. .. ..

edit:

I found this in Rizzo's sig:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2226/203554...36f119fa4_o.jpg

It's at 7 tonight. Now I have to figure out where I am/was supposed to be at 10.

If it's not on the calendar, it doesn't exist.

Edited December 10, 2007 by radicaljoy

[Rizzo]

Just go right to my signature for updates from now on -- I should install a ticker

By the way, another reminder that some transit groups are meeting up this Thursday. Some folks will be meeting before the County commission to show their support for funding the county-wide needs study. A few people will probably speak publicly and ask the board to move forward. It doesn't appear that the board will see a resolution during the session.

Thursday, Dec. 13, 2007, 8:30am @ County Administration Bldg, 300 Monroe NW Room 310

Edited December 10, 2007 by Rizzo

[Allison Slater]

Might've been in my signature too, maybe.. I know my current name on MSN is a big advert for it.

It was pretty much a very basic panel-led speech and discussion about Detroit's advances in transit, and how both sides of the state need to work together to secure funding for transit. That was about it.

[metrogrkid]

Might've been in my signature too, maybe.. I know my current name on MSN is a big advert for it.

It was pretty much a very basic panel-led speech and discussion about Detroit's advances in transit, and how both sides of the state need to work together to secure funding for transit. That was about it.

Well folks, I was at the "East Meets West" Transit Forum as well. Though the above synopsis is true, it does leave out that I DID put them to task by making the following points:

1. the opportunity that the Detroit folks say they are looking for to "build [transit-supportive] collaborations" across the state is right in front of them and is represented by the I-96 corridor.

2. the I-96 corridor has three enormous economic, social and political assets on it (i.e. - Metro Grand Rapids with its 1.3 million people, Greater Lansing with its 500,000 people and with its being the State Capital and Metro Detroit with its 5 million people).

3. the two east and west endpoints each need in-metro commuter rails (i.e. - a Detroit, Metro Airport, Ann Arbor, Pontiac commuter loop for the east end and a Grand Rapids, Muskegon, Holland commuter loop for the west end) that hub in downtown Detroit and downtown GR respectively.

4. both endpoints need commuter rail connection to the State Capital and its central transit hub at CATA station.

5. both endpoint hubs and the Lansing hub all need connecting streetrail, peoplemover, BRT and/or lightrail lines from the three hubs to feed into their respective central urban areas and to accomplish the reverse.

I added that this combined superregional transit setup would serve as the transit "spine" for statewide fixed guideway transit to be able to build transit "ribs" off of (i.e. - to Flint/Saginaw/Bay City and to Kalamazoo/Battle Creek)and ultimately to create the foundation for a final commuter rail link to Traverse City. I concluded by saying that for the transit proponents of Metro Detroit/Southeast Michigan and for their counterparts in Metro Grand Rapids/West Michigan to start a statewide mass transit support movement, a comprehensive vision like this one must first be bought into and publicly acknowledged by Grand Rapids, Lansing and Detroit officials. Their collective buy-in will make it possible for such a big picture to then be implemented in phases starting with the GR and Detroit start-up projects. Our Detroit friends had that "wow, you're absolutely right" look as they were agreeing with what I had just said. They finished with me by saying that we would have to proceed on such a plan "one piece at a time".

[blueradon]

Well folks, I was at the "East Meets West" Transit Forum as well. Though the above synopsis is true, it does leave out that I DID put them to task by making the following points:

1. the opportunity that the Detroit folks say they are looking for to "build [transit-supportive] collaborations" across the state is right in front of them and is represented by the I-96 corridor.

2. the I-96 corridor has three enormous economic, social and political assets on it (i.e. - Metro Grand Rapids with its 1.3 million people, Greater Lansing with its 500,000 people and with its being the State Capital and Metro Detroit with its 5 million people).

3. the two east and west endpoints each need in-metro commuter rails (i.e. - a Detroit, Metro Airport, Ann Arbor, Pontiac commuter loop for the east end and a Grand Rapids, Muskegon, Holland commuter loop for the west end) that hub in downtown Detroit and downtown GR respectively.

4. both endpoints need commuter rail connection to the State Capital and its central transit hub at CATA station.

5. both endpoint hubs and the Lansing hub all need connecting streetrail, peoplemover, BRT and/or lightrail lines from the three hubs to feed into their respective central urban areas and to accomplish the reverse.

I added that this combined superregional transit setup would serve as the transit "spine" for statewide fixed guideway transit to be able to build transit "ribs" off of (i.e. - to Flint/Saginaw/Bay City and to Kalamazoo/Battle Creek)and ultimately to create the foundation for a final commuter rail link to Traverse City. I concluded by saying that for the transit proponents of Metro Detroit/Southeast Michigan and for their counterparts in Metro Grand Rapids/West Michigan to start a statewide mass transit support movement, a comprehensive vision like this one must first be bought into and publicly acknowledged by Grand Rapids, Lansing and Detroit officials. Their collective buy-in will make it possible for such a big picture to then be implemented in phases starting with the GR and Detroit start-up projects. Our Detroit friends had that "wow, you're absolutely right" look as they were agreeing with what I had just said. They finished with me by saying that we would have to proceed on such a plan "one piece at a time".

I don't think anyone could have said it better

[GRDadof3]

I don't think it's the right way to go personally, and I think would be a poor use of taxpayer dollars ($Billions of taxpayer dollars). I know a lot of people don't like to drive between the cities, and some would rather take a train, but how many people actually make the trek every day to make it worthwhile? Think about it: when there are actually traffic jams in Grand Rapids or other parts of Michigan, where are they located? Not between here and Lansing, or between Lansing and Brighton. They are between the exurban areas and the employment centers (that may or may not be in the urban areas of the state). Perhaps the East meets West was a good way to start the conversation on a State level, but they should have been concentrating on things that can be enacted or implemented at the State level, and most of that would pertain to State financing of metro area systems, or at least to get Lansing legislators to open their eyes to new transit ideas and not stand in the way, or having them affect change or get Michigan on the priority lists for metro area projects at the national level.

But seriously, a train between Grand Rapids and Lansing would be lucky to get a couple hundred riders a day. If I am one of the unlucky ones that have to drive to Detroit several times a week (I was at one time), I am most likely involved in sales, product development or quality control for one of the various manufacturers. Where am I headed? Not to downtown Lansing or downtown Detroit. I'm headed to a plant in South Lyon (that is nowhere near a train stop), or I'm headed to the GM Tech Center, or I'm headed to Auburn Hills for a conference. How would a train between the three downtowns help me? Especially if it takes longer than driving, when I'm supposed to be at a certain place by a certain time (or risk losing a big customer)?