Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[AlexPKeaton]

Chris Knape ponders whether $10 Million for a parking ramp could be better spent on mass transit

He brings up some good points. What is interesting is that a streetcar route would actually be helped by more parking, cars, and congestion downtown. Why would you take a streetcar if driving is just as easy, albeit expensive?

I've also been somewhat skeptical of the $400 million in development figure. Perhaps we'll see that and more eventually, but I don't think this starter route will generate that, and I think it's important not to expect too much. Once more branches and extensions are added, however, a good streetcar system could be the lifeblood of the city. Especially once gas reaches $6/gallon.

[Rizzo]

$388M over 9-10 years? That seems pretty reasonable to me.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

He brings up some good points. What is interesting is that a streetcar route would actually be helped by more parking, cars, and congestion downtown. Why would you take a streetcar if driving is just as easy, albeit expensive?

I've also been somewhat skeptical of the $400 million in development figure. Perhaps we'll see that and more eventually, but I don't think this starter route will generate that, and I think it's important not to expect too much. Once more branches and extensions are added, however, a good streetcar system could be the lifeblood of the city. Especially once gas reaches $6/gallon.

I think the $400 Million could be reached in the timeframe, 2012 - 2021. If Market and Fulton comes to fruition, that size parcel alone could hold a $150 Million development. Especially considering River House being just over 200 residential units alone is about $90 Million. Three $100 Million developments, paired with a handful of smaller $20 - $25 Million developments like 38 Commerce, and you're there. Would that development happen without the streetcar line? Well how long have those parking lots along Monroe been there (?). Probably decades now. How long has the Rowe Hotel been sitting vacant? If you base future expectations on past performance, there's no reason to think that they'll just suddenly be developed one day on their own, without something to jump start it.

Being located on the streetcar line will be a definite selling point for future residents and tenants, IMO.

[AlexPKeaton]

Good point, I didn't realize how long the time frame was. And a streetcar definitely brings the Rowe back into play even without the post office moving.

[metrogrkid]

Being located on the streetcar line will be a definite selling point for future residents and tenants, IMO.

Don't go any further until that comment is stated again, over and over AND as a very loud shout. Truer words on fixed guideway transit are indeed said here but only SUPER-rarely.

Edited July 29, 2008 by metrogrkid

[GRdutch]

I hope they build the streetcar long enough so that it doesn't turn into the Seattle monorail. The only people who ride that are tourists who have never seen a monorail. If they only build a line that goes along Monroe, it will get a lot of ridership early on but will quickly fade. The critics will then come out of the woodwork. I've seen first hand what a first-class trolley system can do. If Grand Rapids does this right and makes an efficient and convienient trolley system that reaches out of the downtown corridor, then the streetcars will be an amazing success and create a huge amount of economic development.

[tamias6]

I hope they build the streetcar long enough so that it doesn't turn into the Seattle monorail. The only people who ride that are tourists who have never seen a monorail. If they only build a line that goes along Monroe, it will get a lot of ridership early on but will quickly fade. The critics will then come out of the woodwork. I've seen first hand what a first-class trolley system can do. If Grand Rapids does this right and makes an efficient and convienient trolley system that reaches out of the downtown corridor, then the streetcars will be an amazing success and create a huge amount of economic development.

I think Monroe Ave. will make a good start. If I understand this right, the line will run from main Rapid bus terminal to somewhere on North Monroe. This route would hit the VAA, the BOB, the NW end of Monroe Center, the Hotels, the new GRAM, Devose Place, Calder Plaza, and the new condos in North Monroe. Starting at the bus station the line will be connected to a vast majority of RAPID bus lines. Plus there are many possibilities of streetcar line-to-Rapid bus route transfers along the route.

[wingbert]

I think Monroe Ave. will make a good start. If I understand this right, the line will run from main Rapid bus terminal to somewhere on North Monroe. This route would hit the VAA, the BOB, the NW end of Monroe Center, the Hotels, the new GRAM, Devose Place, Calder Plaza, and the new condos in North Monroe. Starting at the bus station the line will be connected to a vast majority of RAPID bus lines. Plus there are many possibilities of streetcar line-to-Rapid bus route transfers along the route.

Now consolidate the Amtrack station into the Rapid terminal and you've got yerself the makings of a real nice transit hub.

I won't even mention adding a high speed rail line from the aforementioned hub out to the airport.

[GR_Urbanist]

You have to put me down as skeptical of this at this point.

Ok, we have a track that runs from N. Monroe where few people in GR live. It passes places that are only yards away from each other and then goes to a bus terminal where maybe a few people may have the need for a streetcar to N. Monroe.

If you are already downtown, you are not going to pay money to take this thing from the BOB to Devos Place.

And I doubt people are going to be to thrilled to fund a streetcar so some people whom live in condos on N. Monroe can get to their night clubs on Fulton. And I doubt people on N. Monroe are going to take the streetcar to the bus station when they most likely have their own car sitting at or near their front entrance.

Outside the chance that 8.00/gallon gas would change habits of transportation, I really dont see this being anything more than kind of a toy for the occasional tourist.

If they wanted a real impact, they should have had this run from Eastown (maybe even extend it to Gaslight Village), down either Wealthy or Lake Drive to either a station next to St. Mary's or by Veterans Park where you could then catch a DASH bus to various points around DT.

Having it run through the Uptown area exposes the line to more favoriable incomes and demographics that would have a NEED for this type of transportation instead of a short, pointless jog through an area where people will ride it only for the sake of saying they rode a street car in GR.

I understand that they needed to start somewhere, but if you dont do it right the first time, then interest will fizzle out before you know it. And this current plan is begging for a fizzle.

[GRDadof3]

You have to put me down as skeptical of this at this point.

Ok, we have a track that runs from N. Monroe where few people in GR live. It passes places that are only yards away from each other and then goes to a bus terminal where maybe a few people may have the need for a streetcar to N. Monroe.

If you are already downtown, you are not going to pay money to take this thing from the BOB to Devos Place.

And I doubt people are going to be to thrilled to fund a streetcar so some people whom live in condos on N. Monroe can get to their night clubs on Fulton. And I doubt people on N. Monroe are going to take the streetcar to the bus station when they most likely have their own car sitting at or near their front entrance.

Outside the chance that 8.00/gallon gas would change habits of transportation, I really dont see this being anything more than kind of a toy for the occasional tourist.

If they wanted a real impact, they should have had this run from Eastown (maybe even extend it to Gaslight Village), down either Wealthy or Lake Drive to either a station next to St. Mary's or by Veterans Park where you could then catch a DASH bus to various points around DT.

Having it run through the Uptown area exposes the line to more favoriable incomes and demographics that would have a NEED for this type of transportation instead of a short, pointless jog through an area where people will ride it only for the sake of saying they rode a street car in GR.

I understand that they needed to start somewhere, but if you dont do it right the first time, then interest will fizzle out before you know it. And this current plan is begging for a fizzle.

I think they were really looking at the potential for future development along this first line, and there's not a lot of room for new development from downtown out to Eastown. Much of it is historic district too, so you can't do mass demolition to built TOD's on Lake Drive.

And as I understand it, many of the streetcar stations will share platforms with the new BRT, so it creates a shuttle linkage from the BRT to downtown businesses (in theory).

[Allison Slater]

As a pedicab driver, the most of my business comes from trips running between three major locations: Monroe/Pearl, The BOB, and Ionia Street. Whether it's people going from one end to the other, or people from either end going to/coming from the BOB, those are all the big money-making trips, and that's at $3 a ride. The streetcar will satisfy one of those connections, Monroe/Pearl <-> BOB, and for a cheaper rate (assuming it will cost the same as a bus fare, which seems will be the case.) Yes, Pedicabs are a novelty, but so are streetcars. If the system runs late enough, I have no doubt it will have ridership at night in that section. If they were to run it down Ionia, they'd capture it all (and probably put us pedicab drivers out of business!)

But as for daytime traffic, I really don't see much potential ridership, and daytime is when the eyes will be on it the most.

[Rizzo]

As a pedicab driver, the most of my business comes from trips running between three major locations: Monroe/Pearl, The BOB, and Ionia Street. Whether it's people going from one end to the other, or people from either end going to/coming from the BOB, those are all the big money-making trips, and that's at $3 a ride. The streetcar will satisfy one of those connections, Monroe/Pearl <-> BOB, and for a cheaper rate (assuming it will cost the same as a bus fare, which seems will be the case.) Yes, Pedicabs are a novelty, but so are streetcars. If the system runs late enough, I have no doubt it will have ridership at night in that section. If they were to run it down Ionia, they'd capture it all (and probably put us pedicab drivers out of business!)

But as for daytime traffic, I really don't see much potential ridership, and daytime is when the eyes will be on it the most.

DMJM+Harris suggests a possible ridership of 2,700-3700+ riders a day. These figures will be comparable to that of cities with successful lines. If anyone is concerned or in need of clarification, please read the report. You can pick it up here.

While someone staying at Amway Grand may just walk to the GRAM, what about folks who work in North Monroe and seek a lunch somewhere in the CBD? Streetcars are by their nature functional as they are used to extend walking distances. Ask someone in Portland or one of the many European cities with streetcars if they are novelty.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Rizzo

[d8alterego]

I think GR_Urbanist does have a valid point though that there aren't enough people there already and that those people already have their cars. The only major residential area in N Monroe tends to be the Boardwalk Condos and maybe the Brassworks Building (almost forgot the new hotel, but that would only be busy during events). Even if the streetcar is completed today, the TODs may be a few years off. That big of a gap could make streetcar critics leary of any expansion projects since partial funding (in the form of special taxes) would come from the TODs themselves. My hope is that developers would jump at the chance to start developing the minute the streetcar gets approved, if they haven't done so already.

[metrogrkid]

I hope they build the streetcar long enough so that it doesn't turn into the Seattle monorail. The only people who ride that are tourists who have never seen a monorail. If they only build a line that goes along Monroe, it will get a lot of ridership early on but will quickly fade. The critics will then come out of the woodwork. I've seen first hand what a first-class trolley system can do. If Grand Rapids does this right and makes an efficient and convienient trolley system that reaches out of the downtown corridor, then the streetcars will be an amazing success and create a huge amount of economic development.

You describe exactly what is the long-term intent of the GT2/PTT Streetrail Steering Committee. The Market/Monroe line has ALWAYS been intended to be the best-case scenario demonstration line that combines the best of all of the Feds's desires for streetrail (i.e. - a corridor that has undeveloped and highly developable real estate and also highly developed/active/significant destination real estate). Most cities didn't have a prototype corridor with the "perfect Fed-attractive storm". The Market/Monroe corridor IS that and why Secchia, DeVos, Moch and the North Monroe Hotel developers are going to benefit hugely.

As far as Phase Two and Three streetrail corridors, the GT2/PTT committee has seen "next corridors" suggested by the GR project consultants (DMJM Harris) that highlight a line that crosses the Fulton Street Bridge and accesses GVSU-Pew Campus, the hugely developable Dash-West lot and the Bridge Street entertainment district. The other "next corridor is - to no one's surprise - the old downtown-to-Ramona Park corridor (that would today connect downtown to Cherry Hill, Eastown, Spectrum-Blodgett Campus and Gaslight Village).

A third corridor - though not in streetrail format - would be a BRT corridor for Michigan/Bridge Streets (BRT's rubber tires circumvent streetrail's deficiency with Michigan Hill's steep grade). A fourth and probably final long-term corridor would be the 22-mile lightrail corridor from GVSU-Allendale to Ford Airport (connecting, west to east, stations at GVSU-Allendale, Standale/Wilson intersection, Millennium Park <amphitheatre anyone?>, John Ball Zoo, GVSU-Pew Campus, CENTRAL STATION, DeVos Place, Spectrum-Butterworth Campus/GRCC/VanAndel Institute <potential for underhill station>, Davenport University site <potential for underhill station>, Aquinas College, Eastown, Spectrum-Blodgett Campus, Gaslight Village, Breton Village, Calvin College, Woodland Mall, Aerotech Business Park and Ford Airport Expansion). That would ultimately allow the linehaul busses to allign with the lightrail stations and become the north/south transit ribs off of the lightrail transit spine. At a certain distance out from lightrail, linehaul busses would resume east/west service.

Edited August 12, 2008 by metrogrkid

[metrogrkid]

Now consolidate the Amtrack station into the Rapid terminal and you've got yerself the makings of a real nice transit hub. . . .

The other half of Central Station - to look almost identical to the current half of the facility - will sit on the south side of the Wealthy Street overpass (sandwiched between Century Avenue and U.S.-131) and house a real Amtrak Station to replace the SUPER-embarrassing "Green Acres is the place to be, faaaarm livin' is the life for me" current depot/shed. Transit users will be able to access both halves by a pedestrian connector underneath Wealthy.

Edited August 12, 2008 by metrogrkid

[Rizzo]

I thought the streetcar barn was going in under Wealthy? See my blog post about Terminal Square back in April.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Rizzo

[metrogrkid]

I thought the streetcar barn was going in under Wealthy? See my blog post about Terminal Square back in April.

It is my understanding that with all of those uses being rail-based that they are being set up all together on that half of Central Station.

[crinzema]

You describe exactly what is the long-term intent of the GT2/PTT Streetrail Steering Committee. The Market/Monroe line has ALWAYS been intended to be the best-case scenario demonstration line that combines the best of all of the Feds's desires for streetrail (i.e. - a corridor that has undeveloped and highly developable real estate and also highly developed/active/significant destination real estate). Most cities didn't have a prototype corridor with the "perfect Fed-attractive storm". The Market/Monroe corridor IS that and why Secchia, DeVos, Moch and the North Monroe Hotel developers are going to benefit hugely.

As far as Phase Two and Three streetrail corridors, the GT2/PTT committee has seen "next corridors" suggested by the GR project consultants (DMJM Harris) that highlight a line that crosses the Fulton Street Bridge and accesses GVSU-Pew Campus, the hugely developable Dash-West lot and the Bridge Street entertainment district. The other "next corridor is - to no one's surprise - the old downtown-to-Ramona Park corridor (that would today connect downtown to Cherry Hill, Eastown, Spectrum-Blodgett Campus and Gaslight Village).

A third corridor - though not in streetrail format - would be a BRT corridor for Michigan/Bridge Streets (BRT's rubber tires circumvent streetrail's deficiency with Michigan Hill's steep grade). A fourth and probably final long-term corridor would be the 22-mile lightrail corridor from GVSU-Allendale to Ford Airport (connecting, west to east, stations at GVSU-Allendale, Standale/Wilson intersection, Millennium Park <amphitheatre anyone?>, John Ball Zoo, GVSU-Pew Campus, CENTRAL STATION, DeVos Place, Spectrum-Butterworth Campus/GRCC/VanAndel Institute <potential for underhill station>, Davenport University site <potential for underhill station>, Aquinas College, Eastown, Spectrum-Blodgett Campus, Gaslight Village, Breton Village, Calvin College, Woodland Mall, Aerotech Business Park and Ford Airport Expansion). That would ultimately allow the linehaul busses to allign with the lightrail stations and become the north/south transit ribs off of the lightrail transit spine. At a certain distance out from lightrail, linehaul busses would resume east/west service.

Have you ever wondered how much this will cost? I would imagine hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars.

[AlexPKeaton]

Have you ever wondered how much this will cost? I would imagine hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars.

Yes, but to put things into perspective, I believe the I-196 expansion to 3 lanes from East Beltline to downtown is supposed to cost something like $400 million. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.)

[metrogrkid]

Have you ever wondered how much this will cost? I would imagine hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars.

The long-range GVSU-Allendale to Ford Airport metrorail line - with its 18 stations - would cost in the vicinity of $2 billion to $3 billion to construct. HOWEVER, as expensive as that sounds at first blush, consider the following: 1] by 2035 or 2040 when such a corridor could be addressed, gas will be at true European-style $6 to $8 per gallon costs making that corridor and its alignment of the primary metro destinations REALLY attractive to users; 2] that corridor would directly link together 5 college/university campuses with 35,000+ combined students (Davenport will have left by then for the non-corridor Paul Henry Expressway area); 3] that corridor would cater to downtown's 30,000+ office workers, 8,000+ daily downtown visitors/convention delegates/business travelers; 4] that corridor would handle a near majority of the 8,000 daily users of Ford Airport; 5] that corridor would funnel a near majority of the 20,000+ daily visitors to Woodland Mall. THAT IS A SUPER-CORRIDOR that would have the effect of being a 1.35 million square foot linear regional mall (if each station is developed as a minimum 75,000 square foot station/transit-oriented development). With a minimal sales per square foot rate of $10 per day per total square footage, the combined station sales per square foot would equal $4.93 billion per year! Not a bad return. Something to go hmmmmmmmm about.

Yes, but to put things into perspective, I believe the I-196 expansion to 3 lanes from East Beltline to downtown is supposed to cost something like $400 million. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.)

Alex:

You are hitting the nail right on the point!! That figure for that short segment of I-196 expansion between East Beltline and Downtown is indeed in that ballpark. That's less than 8 miles for that amount with ZERO direct connections to ANY super-regional destination while the GVSU-Allendale to Ford Airport is 21 miles and connects 18 Super-regional destinations with 18 revenue-generating stations (to the tune of $4.93 billion dollars from combined station sales per square foot at the 18 stations). A road on that GVSU-Ford Airport corridor would eat money instantly in comparison.

Edited August 13, 2008 by metrogrkid

[Rizzo]

For clarification, I'd like to point out that the GT2 Committee and its member's opinions are separate from the UP Transit Task Force.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Rizzo

[Raildudes dad]

4] that corridor would handle a near majority of the 8,000 daily users of Ford Airport;

What makes you think a majority of GFIA are coming downtown? I'm pretty sure the studies say most don't and I would agree with that. Your $6-8 / gallon gas equates to around $12-14 / gallon for Jet A. That will put a real big dent into air travel numbers. I'm afraid if that happens that big new parking ramp will be pretty empty, the old surface lots would have been more than sufficient. I'll bet the contents of my wallet the day after payday that your $6-8 fuel will do great economic havoc, there won't be much of your touted economic development. High fuel prices in Europe were/ are not due to $120+ oil but rather taxes to support their gov't programs ie transit.

[jas49503]

I'll bet the contents of my wallet the day after payday that your $6-8 fuel will do great economic havoc, there won't be much of your touted economic development. High fuel prices in Europe were/ are not due to $120+ oil but rather taxes to support their gov't programs ie transit.

Well, even with 6-8 dollar gas prices europe still kept developing. it is a different kind of developement and as long as the economy is given time to adjust I think that the economic impact would be minimal. it would require a radically different approah to transportation though and that would take a quite a bit of time. I think that high gas taxes would be benficial (off set of course by lowering taxes in other areas), as a means to get people to change thier ways/lifestyle. it would do much to promote density within cities, stop suburban sprawl, encourage public transportation use and development, as well as decrease the enviromental impact of all this driving.

[MikeRapin]

This is a tad off-topic from the current discussion, but does anyone know if the discussion from this article had a decison?:

http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2008/07/bus_..._grand_val.html

Thanks!

[wingbert]

What makes you think a majority of GFIA are coming downtown? I'm pretty sure the studies say most don't and I would agree with that. Your $6-8 / gallon gas equates to around $12-14 / gallon for Jet A. That will put a real big dent into air travel numbers. I'm afraid if that happens that big new parking ramp will be pretty empty, the old surface lots would have been more than sufficient. I'll bet the contents of my wallet the day after payday that your $6-8 fuel will do great economic havoc, there won't be much of your touted economic development. High fuel prices in Europe were/ are not due to $120+ oil but rather taxes to support their gov't programs ie transit.

What I save in gas, parking fees, and auto maintenance by using the light rail line will free up the cash I need to purchase my airfare.