Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[aowwt]

tslater back up here. think crossing 44th street or clyde park half way between the lights. Thats what I am talking about. Ivanrest is not a good example if not a horrible example. It is a huge steet, in fact it is 4 lanes of traffic on the north side if I am not mistaken. I think it is 3 lanes on the south side. I would say that having a handful of people crossing is not a major deal. BTW some info from the Provo line that was put in regards to ridership, a woman saw something like 3 or 4 people in the first week on the line. The next week it was doubled, after that it was packed. So I think all it would take is a month or two to get this system really rocking. Bus route 1 will still run but the BRT line is what most people will more than likely take for longer trips.

[aowwt]

I also want to put a nail into your thinking as well. This transit system is not geared to the older generations. This is a Generation Y or Millenimals as the key riders. To give you an example who these people really are, if you are born after 1980 you are a Generation Y for the most part. The baby boomers were born during and after World War Two and the Korean War. Thats roughly 1940 to 1960. The generation X that pepsi was targeting was the group from 1960 to around 1980. The next generation is the Gen Y or as some people say the Milleniumals. We are as a whole a very diffrent population group. We do not like the current vehicle travel. A good majority are used to riding in public transit and are very used to that system. We also like to see a more urban setting since we want interaction to find that better DNA we are striving for. Its also why a lot of my generation is just starting to get married, heck most do not until after college is over with that is diffrent than many generations. Its also one that has a demand of getting treated fairly and not run over. Also many of these Transit Orriented Developements are based upon 10 to 20 years down the road. Its not an overnight thing. Most people in my generation are going to want to be near a means of travel outside of vehicles. Also as a whole we will only have one family vehicle than the current 2 to 3 that most Gen X and Baby Boomers have or had.

Also if you try to rip into what I have stated just remember I am only saying what has been stated at the Charrette for the 54th and 60th Stations. The people who are running this know what they are talking about. If you think it is wrong then go to meeting Tonight at Grace Lutheran Church and speak up. Otherwise dont argue with me since I am firm believer in this system and what they say.

[Rizzo]

Who are you objecting to? Why put a nail into anything? No one here has ripped into your comments.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Rizzo

[fotoman311]

Who are you objecting to? Why put a nail into anything? No one here has ripped into your comments.

I think this was the line from tslater that aowwt was responding to:

I could go on about other issues with your post as well, but, I shall save those for another time.

[aowwt]

Thank you fotoman. I just wanted to make sure he understood very well that the info I relate here comes directly from the people who are working on the TOD for the BRT. If you want to argue with what they say then go to the meeting tonight or dont bother argueing with stats that are well backed up.

[GRDadof3]

I also want to put a nail into your thinking as well. This transit system is not geared to the older generations. This is a Generation Y or Millenimals as the key riders. To give you an example who these people really are, if you are born after 1980 you are a Generation Y for the most part. The baby boomers were born during and after World War Two and the Korean War. Thats roughly 1940 to 1960. The generation X that pepsi was targeting was the group from 1960 to around 1980. The next generation is the Gen Y or as some people say the Milleniumals. We are as a whole a very diffrent population group. We do not like the current vehicle travel. A good majority are used to riding in public transit and are very used to that system. We also like to see a more urban setting since we want interaction to find that better DNA we are striving for. Its also why a lot of my generation is just starting to get married, heck most do not until after college is over with that is diffrent than many generations. Its also one that has a demand of getting treated fairly and not run over. Also many of these Transit Orriented Developements are based upon 10 to 20 years down the road. Its not an overnight thing. Most people in my generation are going to want to be near a means of travel outside of vehicles. Also as a whole we will only have one family vehicle than the current 2 to 3 that most Gen X and Baby Boomers have or had.

Also if you try to rip into what I have stated just remember I am only saying what has been stated at the Charrette for the 54th and 60th Stations. The people who are running this know what they are talking about. If you think it is wrong then go to meeting Tonight at Grace Lutheran Church and speak up. Otherwise dont argue with me since I am firm believer in this system and what they say.

You have to realize that the FTA under the current administration loves BRT more than light rail. They overestimate ridership numbers and investment dollars for BRT, and underestimate light rail riders. And yet the busways that have been built in cities like Pittsburgh and LA have lower ridership numbers than were forecast, and the streetcar and light rail lines put in recently are blowing away their ridership estimates.

What is also interesting is that there are very few if any BRT lines operating in the U.S. right now long enough to even draw from.

Are you sure there is even a BRT route in Provo? I did a google search and the only one I could find is not built yet.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700237100,00.html

Again it's interesting for me to see people get so excited about BRT and its potential for development and ridership (when very few if any case studies can be found), and yet people are skeptical of the streetcar proposal, for which there are piles of case studies with measurable success in ridership and resulting investment.

[aowwt]

Well according to most folks that I have talked to show the BRT line is successful. The main issue when a BRT versus a light rail transit is that in a LRT you are limited to just where tracks can be placed. A BRT can overnight change its route. By overnight I mean in less than a week you can move a stop and place it in a new one provided you get every duck lined up for the stop. From what I asked, is that most of these Stops are prefab units that wont need a ton of setup time. I think at most is a phone and power lines running to it which just happens to run on most if not every street in the city. I think Provo just opened up theres or will be very shortly. Its Eugene, Or that is already opened up. In anycase here is the link to BRT systems that are at present up and running. The Charrette we are finishing up was helped by one of the gals that worked on the Miami-Dade line.

[witulski]

Wow, reading this thread and the "What's Next for Grand Rapids" thread makes me want to just merge them together. Streetcars seem like such a brilliant next step for this town, they'd really increase the "city" feel in a way that it seems bus rapid transit couldn't.

[GRDadof3]

Well according to most folks that I have talked to show the BRT line is successful. The main issue when a BRT versus a light rail transit is that in a LRT you are limited to just where tracks can be placed. A BRT can overnight change its route. By overnight I mean in less than a week you can move a stop and place it in a new one provided you get every duck lined up for the stop. From what I asked, is that most of these Stops are prefab units that wont need a ton of setup time. I think at most is a phone and power lines running to it which just happens to run on most if not every street in the city. I think Provo just opened up theres or will be very shortly. Its Eugene, Or that is already opened up. In anycase here is the link to BRT systems that are at present up and running. The Charrette we are finishing up was helped by one of the gals that worked on the Miami-Dade line.

That's one of the reasons why developers are hesitant to invest around BRT, because it can be changed. Would you invest $20 - $30 Million into a development near a station that isn't permanent, or is only semi-permanent?

It's the same way development follows highway exit ramps. The amount of money invested in that infrastructure gives developers the confidence they need to put up projects.

[aowwt]

The thing is this, BRT lines still need to run on streets. The COOL thing about a BRT is that you more than likely will not see a change in the route method but rather an extension. Taking a look at Pittsburgh has been an eye opening look. They are a city similar to Grand Rapids although I would say just slight larger by twice. The key thing is this, they put the BRTs back in the 80s not in the downtown areas only, but rather to move people from the downtown to suburb areas outside of the downtown to relieve congestion on major arteries. The thinking I have is we are doing the same with Division Ave BRT line. We are taking the congestion we get from the workers running from south of town to the north by running it on Division. I am amazed that they are running nearly 41k daily riders when all three busways are combined. Since they have no real maps for each route what they do is have 3 major bus routes that are fed by feeder busses. They also allow at certian stations a park and ride. That is essientally what this BRT line on Division is going to do. Just think you can take the Rapid 44 from say GRR to Division, hop on the BRT and run into downtown in less than 20 minutes from getting to Division. Find a way to get into dtown faster than that from the airport and you got me. But the thing I also read since it is harder to see is that they have a light rail system and some street car systems. They key thing is they ALL work together. The BRT is the first step and one that I think is neccessary in getting cars off from roads in GR. We may see a Street Car system running on Michigan Ave linking to the St Mary's area to the dowtown area with the BRT line running North to Rockford running along Plainfeild. The key thing is that a BRT can do that and be successful with the Street Cars and Light Rail supporting the BRT and the BRT supporting those systems by providing the long haul work force.

[GRDadof3]

Someone mentioned that The Rapid showed visual simulations of BRT on South Division. Has anyone seen these videos?

[aowwt]

not sure, I have not seen anything from the charrette system. They maybe doing one now with Google earth using the program sketchup but I am not sure. I know they plan on using it to show the change in landscape but thats about it.

[Rizzo]

You have to realize that the FTA under the current administration loves BRT more than light rail. They overestimate ridership numbers and investment dollars for BRT, and underestimate light rail riders. And yet the busways that have been built in cities like Pittsburgh and LA have lower ridership numbers than were forecast, and the streetcar and light rail lines put in recently are blowing away their ridership estimates.

What is also interesting is that there are very few if any BRT lines operating in the U.S. right now long enough to even draw from.

Are you sure there is even a BRT route in Provo? I did a google search and the only one I could find is not built yet.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700237100,00.html

Again it's interesting for me to see people get so excited about BRT and its potential for development and ridership (when very few if any case studies can be found), and yet people are skeptical of the streetcar proposal, for which there are piles of case studies with measurable success in ridership and resulting investment.

This community can find a couple hundred million to pay for quality. I can point to one project downtown that tells me so.

[jbr12]

I also want to put a nail into your thinking as well. This transit system is not geared to the older generations. This is a Generation Y or Millenimals as the key riders. To give you an example who these people really are, if you are born after 1980 you are a Generation Y for the most part. The baby boomers were born during and after World War Two and the Korean War. Thats roughly 1940 to 1960. The generation X that pepsi was targeting was the group from 1960 to around 1980. The next generation is the Gen Y or as some people say the Milleniumals. We are as a whole a very diffrent population group.

Just a heads up from someone that rides The Rapid on a daily basis... The MAJORITY of the riders on my route ARE older generations. My route (Route 15) goes right past Central High School and even with that, theres still more older generations on the bus then younger 'kids' (me being a younger kid)

I'm just saying...

[Allison Slater]

tslater back up here. think crossing 44th street or clyde park half way between the lights. Thats what I am talking about.

Wouldn't it be more cost effective and space efficient to build some extra, I don't know, crosswalks or pedestrian bridges instead of widening the road to add a median? It'd be a lot safer that way. I don't care if a road has a median or not, I dread crossing it without a nearby crosswalk of some sort. I'd much rather see more crosswalks around 28th & EBL than a trash-collecting median.

[Mark Miller]

Hot off the presses....

A vision of the 54th and Division intersection looking North to downtown from the charrette presentation tonight.

There are many more images that should be posted in the coming hours, even a wonderful plan for the area from 54th to 60th Streets.

Enjoy

[civitas]

Here are a few more from tonight's presentation...

Attached is a pdf of the Fisher's Station Town Plan.

Fishers_Station_Plan_2.pdf

Edited October 24, 2008 by civitas

[GRDadof3]

I'd have to see an aerial of this area now, but it seems like there's a lot of replacing existing building stock in this plan (?) Or is that area pretty sparsely developed now?

[civitas]

I'd have to see an aerial of this area now, but it seems like there's a lot of replacing existing building stock in this plan (?) Or is that area pretty sparsely developed now?

Attached is a series of images that were created to demonstrate the ability to phase the plan at Division and 54th over time.

There is a fair amount of existing open space in the area.

Fishers_Station_Phasing_Demonstration.pdf

[Rizzo]

That's some great stuff -- but this leaves me with some questions. Are these renderings representative of a market study or effective land use pattern alone? Also, where's the bus station?

Edited October 24, 2008 by Rizzo

[mgreven]

The phasing thing helped because when I first saw those images, I thought, "Those are pretty pictures, but they don't come close to looking anything remotely like that area." I think it would be nice to see drawings that seem a little more realistic than still include current buildings - when it's totally different than the current area it makes it feel like a pipe dream instead of possible reality. It just seems so dense and tears down everything there over time. What is the time frame for it to look like this utopia? I agree with Rizzo - is there a market to support all this or is it just to look impressive?

[GRDadof3]

Attached is a series of images that were created to demonstrate the ability to phase the plan at Division and 54th over time.

There is a fair amount of existing open space in the area.

Fishers_Station_Phasing_Demonstration.pdf

That does help a lot. An aerial view does show that it's extremely low density in that area:

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&...1&encType=1

Rizzo, this view shows a BRT station at 54th and one near 60th:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/post-a5417-

The one thing I don't see are park-n-ride lots.

[tamias6]

This looks like a much bigger version of what the city of Walker has planed for the Standale shopping district. Nothing has come of it so far expect the new fire station on Lake Michigan Dr. But then again Walker is thinking long term. I would assume the planner of Fisher Station concept be treated in much the same way, a long term master plan that will slowly be implemented over time.

Opinion wise, I do like what I see. It definitely looks infinitely better than the 60's and 70's suburban blah that's there in the area now. Wyoming should take note of these concepts if they want a "Downtown" along their stretch of 28th street.

[Rizzo]

That does help a lot. An aerial view does show that it's extremely low density in that area:

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&...1&encType=1

Rizzo, this view shows a BRT station at 54th and one near 60th:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/post-a5417-

The one thing I don't see are park-n-ride lots.

I don't think you'd see lots in transit oriented developments. Having parking ramps might be more oriented to this kind of development.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Rizzo

[aowwt]

uhm the lots are near the two existing commerical buildings on the west side. You can tell from the overly large parking lots. You have to remember we dont want a sea of parking there but over time those two lots could be built into a parking ramp structure if there is a need. A lot is pretty easy to construct as everybody can see from the prespective of downtown, gag.

As for the concept of 28th, well thats what the 20/20 plan looks like. The problem we have in wyoming is M-11 is controlled and ran by the State. They have REFUSED our requests to put in a boulevard. The key thing that I see in this is that although it has the greenery in the middle of the street it still only takes up the space of a normal lane. They are more like islands than a true stretch. Thats what Kentwood and Wyoming need to do all the way to 28th Street. That will help that street by a large amount.

If I can get the 4 negative votes on the planning commission to allow the gas station at the corner of 28th and Jenkins To become positive votes then wyoming has a good way of getting Mdot to pass this. As I said it is up to the Planning Commission IMHO to use the gas station to spur the walkability of 28th and hence allow the 20/20 plan to come into fruitation. BTW I plan on posting some pics of what I would like to see the downtown stretch to look like.