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Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids


GRDadof3

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Going by that article its sound to me that the proposed South Division line will be a Partial BRT and not a full one. I hope there are plans install HOV lanes for the buses to travel on.

I don't understand what you mean. My understanding is that there would be a "buses only" lane installed and it would be a full BRT system. Please expound more if you have further information.

~John

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I don't understand what you mean. My understanding is that there would be a "buses only" lane installed and it would be a full BRT system. Please expound more if you have further information.

~John

There will be bus only lanes, but only during peak hour rushes. It's not a fully grade seperate system which is what a full BRT system would be.

From the article posted above about partial BRT:

Part BRT

Some systems operate as part BRT. These lines often run part of their route in city streets or run in HOV lanes with other traffic or dedicated transit lanes. They also have some or all of the same features as full BRT including ITS, full-scale stations, low/floor level boarding, branded vehicles and off vehicle ticket vending. An example of part BRT is the Eugene EMX busway or the Euclid Busway in Cleveland. 40% of the EMX route is in traffic, while the rest is in a single bi-directional dedicated lane. Another example of half BRT is the Houston Express buses that operate in the HOV lanes of Houston’s freeways with vanpools and cars. Costs are much lower for these systems and reported costs range from $6 million per mile for the EMX to $17.9 Million per mile for the Euclid Line. This includes the partial guideway reconstruction, vehicles, ITS, and stops.

Edited by Rizzo
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Rizzo, I'm offended that you think I didn't read the article.

I guess it wouldn't be a full BRT system with regular buses stopping at all bus stops in front of them in the buses only lane. But then again they don't define what a dedicated bus lane is.

I believe that the planned system would qualify as a full BRT system.

~John

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Yeah, they look cool and all but I just don't see the usefulness of having one on Monroe, especially at the extreme cost. I really see the usefulness of the BRT system on Division and other routes. Being a Rapid user I can see the benefits of a BRT system, but I think a light rail system would just be an underused novelty system.

To go on a bit of a rant... I don't understand why they aren't considering a bullet train between Grand Rapids and Detroit. I mean this is suppose to be an industrial mecca state, yet they aren't linking the two largest cities that happen to be on opposite sides of the state together. I think it could benefit the whole state if G.R. and Detroit could work together more efficiently.

Just my thoughts and rant.

~John

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Rizzo, I'm offended that you think I didn't read the article.

I guess it wouldn't be a full BRT system with regular buses stopping at all bus stops in front of them in the buses only lane. But then again they don't define what a dedicated bus lane is.

I believe that the planned system would qualify as a full BRT system.

~John

I'm offended that you think to know my intentions.

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Such drama. I don't think JohnE that you should be offended over Rizzo's post. I agree with Rizzo that I don't see the S. Division BRT being a full BRT route. It might be mere semantics, but it's not going to be a "busway" or any kind of separated bus corridor. In many cases, it will be just a matter of painting diamonds on existing lanes. It would cost something a lot more than $30 Million to rebuild the entire 9 or 10 miles of South Division into a separated busway, and to build in stations, new traffic signals, etc.. I've also heard that the buses won't be much different than the current fleet, just branded (painted) differently..

I think the streetcar will result in MUCH more spinoff development than the BRT, even if the BRT has more ridership. Plus, light rail gets a lot more attention than a bus system.

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The ROI for the streetcar may be much higher. By my estimation, the bus project may spur approximately $160 million. As far as I can tell there hasn't been a ROI study like we saw with the streetcar. Their project website places it anywhere from 100 to 1000 percent, but The Rapid assumes the project will spur somewhere around 400%.

Edited by Rizzo
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I think the real advantage of a light rail or street car system over a BRT, especially the kind planned for Division is the permanance the laying of tracks in a road has over painting lanes. If I were a developer and wanted to build a TOD, I would much rather want to put something on a street that I knew would always be on a transit route. Maybe a BRT system would be there as long or longer, but the psychological effect of seeing rails embedded in the pavement would say to me that this thing was here to stay.

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I think the real advantage of a light rail or street car system over a BRT, especially the kind planned for Division is the permanance the laying of tracks in a road has over painting lanes. If I were a developer and wanted to build a TOD, I would much rather want to put something on a street that I knew would always be on a transit route. Maybe a BRT system would be there as long or longer, but the psychological effect of seeing rails embedded in the pavement would say to me that this thing was here to stay.

Exactly.

The Euclid Corridor BRT in Cleveland is supposed to be very similar to GR's BRT:

http://euclidtransit.org/euclid_corridor_project/video.asp

Seems kind of like a novelty to me, especially since buses already serve these areas, but what do I know.

I believe the new BRT buses will look very much like this:

http://www.philadelphiatransitvehicles.inf...emos/3999-F.jpg

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I think the real advantage of a light rail or street car system over a BRT, especially the kind planned for Division is the permanance the laying of tracks in a road has over painting lanes. If I were a developer and wanted to build a TOD, I would much rather want to put something on a street that I knew would always be on a transit route. Maybe a BRT system would be there as long or longer, but the psychological effect of seeing rails embedded in the pavement would say to me that this thing was here to stay.

A lot of people hold your line of thinking, but The Rapid dosen't think so. They cite a University of Michigan study that contradicts the idea that rail has very little to do with investments near stations. (Check under the Economic Impact heading for more information at this link) This is despite a whole host of data to the contrary.

Edited by Rizzo
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A lot of people hold your line of thinking, but The Rapid dosen't think so. They cite a University of Michigan study that contradicts the idea that rail has very little to do with investments near stations. (Check under the Economic Impact heading for more information at this link) This is despite a whole host of data to the contrary.

The BRT is pretty far down the path, so it's sort of a foregone conclusion at this point. Although I believe they will have to ask for money in the form of a millage request to maintain the system. I just hope that BRT supporters put just as much energy behind the streetcar (which to me is the first step toward a better system than the BRT, in the long run).

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Exactly.

The Euclid Corridor BRT in Cleveland is supposed to be very similar to GR's BRT:

http://euclidtransit.org/euclid_corridor_project/video.asp

Seems kind of like a novelty to me, especially since buses already serve these areas, but what do I know.

I believe the new BRT buses will look very much like this:

http://www.philadelphiatransitvehicles.inf...emos/3999-F.jpg

Yes I think it will be much like the Euclid system as shown in the video. The buses would have wider doors than the one displayed in the Philadelphia image. They may even be tandom vehicles as displayed in the video.

Also the Rapid learned that people in this area would use bus service if they are provided with efficient service from the extremely successful park and ride shuttle service that was used during the reconstruction of the S-Curve. The Rapid has had record breaking riders for the past years since they have improved the service. Back when it was GRATA the bus system was not usable for most people. When it was GRATA, the system was disgusting. Since the improvements with The Rapid, it is convient and very usable, so people started using it.

It is well known that with increased time of bus routes ridership increases. Having 10 and 15 minute time intervals increases usability and ridership will increase. Also the BRT system will make boarding the advanced buses easier, painless and more efficient with more boarding doors and pre-payments.

The Rapid has a picture of a BRT bus that most likely will be used for the system from a demo bus that was brought here to show.

1217443276_brt1_web_08.jpg

http://www.ridetherapid.org/includes/files...brt1_web_08.jpg ~John

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Yes I think it will be much like the Euclid system as shown in the video. The buses would have wider doors than the one displayed in the Philadelphia image. They may even be tandom vehicles as displayed in the video.

Also the Rapid learned that people in this area would use bus service if they are provided with efficient service from the extremely successful park and ride shuttle service that was used during the reconstruction of the S-Curve. The Rapid has had record breaking riders for the past years since they have improved the service. Back when it was GRATA the bus system was not usable for most people. When it was GRATA, the system was disgusting. Since the improvements with The Rapid, it is convient and very usable, so people started using it.

It is well known that with increased time of bus routes ridership increases. Having 10 and 15 minute time intervals increases usability and ridership will increase. Also the BRT system will make boarding the advanced buses easier, painless and more efficient with more boarding doors and pre-payments.

The Rapid has a picture of a BRT bus that most likely will be used for the system from a demo bus that was brought here to show.

1217443276_brt1_web_08.jpg

http://www.ridetherapid.org/includes/files...brt1_web_08.jpg ~John

I don't disagree that I think the BRT is a good idea, and you will pick up some of the 131 commuters into downtown. How many is anyone's guess. Will new development be built around it is the big mystery question.

Studies have shown though that in cities where light rail has been introduced, specifically Minneapolis and Charlotte recently, 60% of riders are brand new to transit. Never ridden a bus in their lives. That's a paradigm shift in getting people out of cars and into transit. Light rail has a certain allure that just can't be beat. And now Charlotte's Lynx Blue Line is carrying about 16,000 riders/day, and Minneapolis Hiawatha Line is doing the same. I'm not saying that the streetcar will do that by a long shot, but if economic conditions are favorable, I think we'll see a lot of development rise at the Southern and Northern ends of Monroe in direct correlation to rail bed going in. No matter how you slice it, brand new mid-rise and high-rise developments are costly to build, and therefore command a certain price point. A price point that I just don't see desirable at the farthest Southern ends of South Division. At Wealthy and South Division, much more likely (but then those people won't really need an express bus service).

Eerr!! Scratch that. The Hiawatha Line drew 27,000 riders in 2007, and 5400 new housing units have been built near the stations, with another 7000 in the permitting stage.

http://www.metrocouncil.org/directions/tra...ha_TODMar06.htm

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Well I helped to plan the BRT line for the 54th/60th station redevelopment. The amount of land that is available in that area is amazing. From what I understand, the current idea is at least 200 to 300 parking spaces for the BRT line for that station. Personally I think they could go even higher but that is just me. The issue is that building any parking ramps is a huge cost and as such the cities are not looking into doing that. Any millage increase might be hard to bear on the current economic stage but we will see when they bring this to the ballot.

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Well I helped to plan the BRT line for the 54th/60th station redevelopment. The amount of land that is available in that area is amazing. From what I understand, the current idea is at least 200 to 300 parking spaces for the BRT line for that station. Personally I think they could go even higher but that is just me. The issue is that building any parking ramps is a huge cost and as such the cities are not looking into doing that. Any millage increase might be hard to bear on the current economic stage but we will see when they bring this to the ballot.

That sounds like a plan. Keep the surface parking lots out there. :thumbsup:

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This is just a thought. I can see both side of the debate of rather to go with BRT or Streetcar on South Devision. Though I'm leaning towards GRDad's points on going Light rail. But IMO. BRT serve as a good transition to street car line. The BRT would provide the prepay kiosks and stations a street car system would need while sparing the expense of laying track into the street. That would get us by until the economy picks back up again. But in the future the tracks could be laid when usage of the line picks up to the point of justifying a streetcar line.

Edited by tamias6
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This is just a thought. I can see both side of the debate of rather to go with BRT or Streetcar on South Devision. Though I'm leaning towards GRDad's points on going Light rail. But IMO. BRT serve as a good transition to street car line. The BRT would provide the prepay kiosks and stations a street car system would need while sparing the expense of laying track into the street. That would get us by until the economy picks back up again. But in the future the tracks could be laid when usage of the line picks up to the point of justifying a streetcar line.

Actually, I'm not advocating streetcar or light rail for South Division. It'd be way too expensive. In fact, I think it'd be smarter and cheaper to build commuter rail along the 131 corridor to downtown, and make upgrades to the already existing South Division bus line to make it more of an express service. And since GM won't be using that rail line and yard for much longer, that operator is going to be looking for people to lease those railroad tracks.

I do think the streetcar on Monroe is a great start, to eventually be expanded to serve Gaslight Village and maybe areas along Seward on the West side.

Anyway, in the news today, Fisher Coachworks is opening a new facility in Livonia to build a new plug-in 40 foot long hybrid bus:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../812150409/1361

medium_AK_BUS_small_file_lo_res.jpg

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This is just a thought. I can see both side of the debate of rather to go with BRT or Streetcar on South Devision. Though I'm leaning towards GRDad's points on going Light rail. But IMO. BRT serve as a good transition to street car line. The BRT would provide the prepay kiosks and stations a street car system would need while sparing the expense of laying track into the street. That would get us by until the economy picks back up again. But in the future the tracks could be laid when usage of the line picks up to the point of justifying a streetcar line.

As a member of the GT2/PTT Steering Committee that is planning BOTH the BRT and streetrail projects, I can say that you are one of the few that completely grasps the committee's choise of BRT in this phase of Metro GR's transit readiness. The BRT is the transit mode of choice for metros that are poised for rail transit but not yet quite there in a population density sense. DMJM Harris - world-renowned experts in fixed-guideway transit planning (peers of Siemens) and the consultants for The Rapid/ITP and ITP's streetrail and Division BRT projects - has always purported that GR's current BRT was intended to be a "placeholder" for "the necessary real estate alignment in the most dense urban corridor that met the most of FTA transit support benchmarks". The "place" that they intend the Division BRT to "hold" is none other than the first leg of a future lightrail alignment for a two-leg system <the other leg being a future 21-mile East/West Allendale GVSU-to-Downtown-to Ford Airport alignment>.

It is really quite simple, pragmatic and ingenious - PUT IN THE STATION AND TRANSIT-SUPPORT INFRASTUCTURE NOW UNTIL THE LINE GROWS THE NEEDED POPULATION DENSITY AROUND IT TO UPGRADE TO RAIL. The Rapid has been sowing these multi-phased seeds for over five years now. They have definitely become one of the most progressive, intelligent and shrewd agents of change that we have in Metro GR. Watch their dust and enjoy the world-class outcomes!

Edited by metrogrkid
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