Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[aowwt]

I the city of Wyoming has been pushing this pretty hard and fast. I been talking to as many people I can about it. The biggest thing I think this has going for itself is the fact that it is a May vote not a November one, second it will only increase taxes 3 years from now not next year, lastly its a small increase compared to what some cities need to increase their rates by.

[crinzema]

Why is conservatism seen so negatively on this forum? It makes me sick to see comments wishing away a viewpoint into minority. This is the place of discussion, is it not?

Edited April 27, 2009 by crinzema

[Rizzo]

Why is conservatism seen so negatively on this forum? It makes me sick to see comments wishing away a viewpoint into minority. This is the place of discussion, is it not?

Can you describe or quote comments?

[GRDadof3]

Why is conservatism seen so negatively on this forum? It makes me sick to see comments wishing away a viewpoint into minority. This is the place of discussion, is it not?

Yeah, I was going to ask the same thing Rizzo did. Can you provide posts where people are bashing "conservatism?"

edit: Ah, I see in tamias' post a comment about conservatives fearing the "big bad tax man out to get them." Well if you read the threads on other sites regarding this transit issue, and pay attention to the tea party thing, that's exactly the message they are trying to send: that government is the big bad tax man out to get all of us, so stock up on your guns, call Joe the Plumber, and let's start a revolution. I'm saying this as a centrist who is somewhat embarrassed by the current conservative/libertarian movement.

If it's about something else, then I must be confused.

If you have some sound criticism of the Silver Line, by all means speak up.

[rachelliz]

Yeah, and the increase in taxes for the enhancement is tiny! Here are the facts (and sorry if someone posted this already, I didn't read through all 107 pages carefully to see )

The Cost:

Renewal: 1.12 mills costs the owner of a $100,000 assessed value home $4.66 per month

Enhancement: 0.16 mills costs the owner of a $100,000 assessed value home $0.75 per month

Furthermore, the economic return is estimated at 400%!!!!! (I think we have a winner).

So VOTE YES May 5!!!! Remind your friends!

(Info from the Friends of Transit Vote Yes flier)

[Veloise]

Seems like most ballot initiatives (dang commies tryin' to raise our taxes!) have two sides. I have not seen one scrap of opposition to this...just yard signs everywhere, and well-written letters in the Press.

(couple yard signs grace the side windows of my four-wheeler)

[GR_Urbanist]

Yeah, I was going to ask the same thing Rizzo did. Can you provide posts where people are bashing "conservatism?"

edit: Ah, I see in tamias' post a comment about conservatives fearing the "big bad tax man out to get them." Well if you read the threads on other sites regarding this transit issue, and pay attention to the tea party thing, that's exactly the message they are trying to send: that government is the big bad tax man out to get all of us, so stock up on your guns, call Joe the Plumber, and let's start a revolution. I'm saying this as a centrist who is somewhat embarrassed by the current conservative/libertarian movement.

If it's about something else, then I must be confused.

If you have some sound criticism of the Silver Line, by all means speak up.

The tenor is essentially that if you dont fall in line with being "progressive" or liberal, then you are some backwoods hick, stodgy Christian nut. You see little snarky comments here or there. Thankfully this site isn't pushing some political stand

Tamias Tea Party comments illustrate that to a tee. It isnt about "big bad tax man out to get them", which is exactly what people who didnt bother to pay attention always came up with. Other enlightened reasons that were tossed out:

"They don't really know why they are protesting"

"Oh they are just racist"

"They just want millionaires to control everything"

"Paid for by the Israeli lobby"

"It's just a front group for the KKK"

All of them are plain stupidity wrapped in elitist snobbery and ignorance.

Those of us that went there were ticked off at the horrid amount of spending FROM BOTH SIDES of the aisle, which will have to be paid for with sky-high taxes at some point and will leave trillions of dollars in debt to all of our kids. We want a government that recognizes the separations that the Constitution spells out. One where the Feds stay within their limits, which means all of these unconstitutional "programs" that are costing us everything either get eliminated or are picked up by the states where they can raise taxes to pay for them if the people of those states so want it.

THE OPERATIVE POINT: The amount of government requested by the people of a state, stays within the boundaries of that state.

No one is calling for an armed revolt. That's just insulting to paint genuinely concerned people as dangerous nuts.

There have been groups on the left that have actually engaged in real acts of violence for their cause (e.g. ELF), and WE are the ones that are nuts because we exercised our right to peaceably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

What a bunch of nutjubs we are.

The only thing to be embarrassed about is how little some people here even know about this whole thing.

And as for the Silver Line? I'm voting NO because I've yet to see where the demand is for this seeing that we have buses that already run on Division and I've yet to see a long line of people waiting to get on, or coming off one. Where do these people get that magically everyone is going to flock to these buses? Why dont they use the buses that are there now? And exactly how much time is going to be shed off a trip from 60th street to DT that make the alternative 15 minute car on highway drive seem so less desirable?

The second thing is that it runs though a huge area that few people actually live on, and most people have their own cars. Unless you want to go to a pawn shop or an anywhere USA strip-mall, what will be the draw? Please dont tell me that there is this untapped population of people that need a BRT to go to shows at the arena.

Third, from what I've read, these buses are going to get their own dedicated lane, each way, on Division? Division at some places is only 4-lanes wide. So how is traffic going to be managed?

Fourth, the BS about "millions of dollars" of development will come about because of this. Development from whom and of what?

So where are the millions of dollars of development that came about from all of the other millages, not counting the millions of dollars Rapid spent on itself?

Fifth, People are already struggling to pay their property taxes as it is now. Adding millions more on people's backs for a line, that many people here supporting this likely will never use, is a silly move.

Edited April 27, 2009 by GR_Urbanist

[GRDadof3]

the tenor is essentially that if you dont fall in line with being "progressive" or liberal, then you are some backwoods hick, stodgy Christian nut. You see little snarky comments here or there. Thankfully this site isn't pushing some political stand

Tamias Tea Party comments illustrate that to a tee. It isnt about "big bad tax man out to get them", which is exactly what people who didnt bother to pay attention always came up with. Other enlightened reasons that were tossed out:

"They don't really know why they are protesting"

"Oh they are just racist"

"They just want millionaires to control everything"

"Paid for by the Israeli lobby"

"It's just a front group for the KKK"

All of them are plain stupidity wrapped in elitist snobbery and ignorance.

Those of us that went there were ticked off at the horrid amount of spending FROM BOTH SIDES of the aisle, which will have to be paid for with sky-high taxes at some point and will leave trillions of dollars in debt to all of our kids. We want a government that recognizes the separations that the Constitution spells out. One where the Feds stay within their limits, which means all of these unconstitutional "programs" that are costing us everything either get eliminated or are picked up by the states where they can raise taxes to pay for them if the people of those states so want it.

THE OPERATIVE POINT: The amount of government requested by the people of a state, stays within the boundaries of that state.

No one is calling for an armed revolt. That's just insulting to paint genuinely concerned people as dangerous nuts.

their have been groups on the left that have actually engaged in real acts of violence for their cause (e.g. ELF), and WE are the ones that are nuts because we exercised our right to peaceably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

What a bunch of nutjubs we are.

The only thing to be embarrassed about is how little some people here even know about this whole thing.

And as for the Silver Line? I'm voting NO because I've yet to see where the demand is for this seeing that we have buses that already run on Division and I've yet to see a long line of people waiting to get on, or coming off one. Where do these people get that magically everyone is going to flock to these buses? Why dont they use the buses that are there now? And exactly how much time is going to be shed off a trip from 60th street to DT that make the alternative 15 minute car on highway drive seem so less desirable?

The second thing is that it runs though a huge area that few people actually live on, and most people have their own cars. Unless you want to go to a pawn shop or an anywhere USA strip-mall, what will be the draw? Please dont tell me that there is this untapped population of people that need a BRT to go to shows at the arena.

Third, from what I've read, these buses are going to get their own dedicated lane, each way, on Division? Division at some places is only 4-lanes wide. So how is traffic going to be managed?

Fourth, the BS about "millions of dollars" of development will come about because of this. Development from whom and of what?

So where are the millions of dollars of development that came about from all of the other millages, not counting the millions of dollars Rapid spent on itself?

Fifth, People are already struggling to pay their property taxes as it is now. Adding millions more on people's backs for a line, that many people here supporting this likely will never use, is a silly move.

I personally don't consider myself progressive or liberal. And as far as comments here about painting particular parties as extremists, it happens on both sides here. As long as people aren't attacking each other, I don't have a problem with it (unless it starts getting ugly). It just happens to be that the content of UrbanPlanet attracts more people who are of a more progressive/liberal slant, not the other way around (that we put forward a progressive/liberal agenda, IMO).

I understand your arguments against the BRT line. Rizzo and I are both big critics of the BRT line, and have been for several years. I have serious questions about the proposal. But since I don't have a plan myself to put in the light rail or commuter rail that I want, I'm not coming out against it. I do think getting the first New Starts program in Michigan is a big deal.

I find on both sides that everything is labeled as a "slippery slope." $12/more/year is the beginning of the end of civilization as we know it, the banner of socialism, and is the straw that will break the camel's back for the entire metro area. Comments like these that I read are just plain ludicrous, and make the opponents of it lose all credibility. Same goes for the other side, painting tax protesters as lunatics. But some of the signs at these rallies do certainly make me think there are more than a few screws loose.

On the subject of leaving a big tax bill for our children, I also have SERIOUS concerns about the stimulus package. When all is said and done, the price tag will be over a $Trillion, yet an average sized city like Grand Rapids gets a whopping $80 Million, most of which will be spent in a short time span on roads and sewer projects. How is that a "jobs producer?" Our metro area's yearly Gross Product is about $40 Billion. $80 Million is less than 1% of that (.002 to be exact). Now picture each metro area in the country getting an influx of .002 (.2%). How is that going to be a game changer for the economy? It's like starting up a bunch of $20 Million companies for 6 months, and then shutting them down.

And don't even get me started about the sham bailout of the financial industry (who is the root cause of all of this).

But honestly I don't see the Rapid's proposal and Obama's (lack of) Stimulus Plan in the same way.

[John E]

I thought "tea party" people aren't conservatives, just fed up citizens. It's not about polical parties but about trying to get control of what use to be our government and using our constitution and the rights that it provides us.

The Rapids has been making great upgrades to the public transportation system and I have been very pleased with their progress. I am excited about the Silver Line as I know it will be a big improvement bringing us up to date with modern public transportation. I am totally convinced that a lot of people who work downtown will use the system and save money on transportation costs. $40 a month to get to and from work along with other trips is a bargain that could save a whole lot more than the tax increase of $12 dollars a year on gas and vehicle maintenance.

~John

[GR_Urbanist]

I thought "tea party" people aren't conservatives, just fed up citizens. It's not about polical parties but about trying to get control of what use to be our government and using our constitution and the rights that it provides us.

You are right. It is a nonpartisan movement. A GOPer who s[ends like a drunken sailor needs to go as much as anyone else.

[Allison Slater]

There was a LOT of Obama-hate at the tea party I witnessed, so I can easily see how it would be viewed as conservative-oriented. Also saw quite a bit of "put God back in our country" signs and saw only one minority at all. It was a very strange event in that regard.

[crinzema]

These people shouldn't be voting

No wonder people can't take these people seriously when it comes to solving our societal problems. I just hope they are in the rapidly dwindling minority.

I was referring to this specific post, but I did not call it out specifically because these comments are laden all over this site targeted towards conservatives. Just because a fiscal policy attracts christians, does not make it invalid or of unsound reasoning. Flip your words around and you'll see that you sound just like your hard-nosed stubborn counterparts.

I'd much rather see 20,000 of these little guys on our streets than a inflexible transportation solution. It also seems like people have forgot the wonders of the bike. I myself might get a road bike this summer. I believe that personal transportation is still the future and will always be. Our transportation problems will be fixed by inventors, not politicians.

Edited April 27, 2009 by crinzema

[Rizzo]

You should raise some awareness of bashing on another thread somewhere in the Coffee House. It sounds like you are referring to a general happening not limited to this thread. If it's not limited to this thread and comes up elsewhere talk about it. If more Conservative members don't speak out about it, it's probably going to be unchallenged. They're a large membership of the Grand Rapids sub-forum.

By the way what are your thoughts about this millage? What are your concerns?

Edited April 27, 2009 by Rizzo

[d8alterego]

My post was in response to all the self-proclaimed "conservatives, GOPers, or true Patriots" who commented on the news article with little facts to back up their claims for not voting yes except for the mantra of "Taxed Enough Already." I feel they should not vote because an uninformed voter should not vote. Now look, if you have a conservative opinion on a way to fix the societal issue of transportation in America (and have the facts to back them up) then I look forward to hearing them. I will be the first one to say that a healthy government is one that is based on respectful dialogue and compromise. That is why Grand Rapids is doing so well is it not? We have a great relationship between our city and local businesses.

A transportation system is not always fixed by inventors. It can easily live or die through the funding (or non-funding) of government entities (local, state, and federal). As an example, the modern and "free" interstate highway system is heavily subsidized by the federal government. No funding = no highway. I could almost guarantee you that highways wouldn't exist as they do today if it were up to private companies to front that much capital; let alone money for maintainence. M-6 is a perfect example. If private companies wanted that highway, why didn't they build it rather than burdening the state? Tolls aren't a good private example because they tend to need subsidizies to keep running when they are used less because of the toll.

We cool?

I was referring to this specific post, but I did not call it out specifically because these comments are laden all over this site targeted towards conservatives.

Our transportation problems will be fixed by inventors, not politicians.

Edited April 27, 2009 by d8alterego

[Raildudes dad]

As an example, the modern and "free" interstate highway system is heavily subsidized by the federal government. No funding = no highway. I could almost guarantee you that highways wouldn't exist as they do today if it were up to private companies to front that much capital; let alone money for maintainence. M-6 is a perfect example. If private companies wanted that highway, why didn't they build it rather than burdening the state?

The interstate construction is funded by the federal fuel tax $0.40 on every gallon of fuel purchased in MI. Maintenance is funded by the state fuel tax $0.19 on every gallon of gasoline bought in MI. State, county and city roads are funded with their respective share of the State Fuel tax and vehicle registration. NO general fund money in MI is used for roads - check out the state budget if you don't believe me. Some cities and some townships put some general fund money into road work but it isn't the major funding source. The highway fuel taxes funds roads, the user pays .

My problem with the BRT is it duplicates an existing route and while the tax is small, they say "we can't afford to pass up $48 million in Federal and Sate funding" like it's "free". Where do they think those funds come from? I don't have any problem voting "yes' on a millage that improves service on the entire system. But a millage to improve 1 route? If it's going to create so much development use a TIF along the to finance the route.

[grandrollerz]

Yeah, not so sure about the silver line. Wouldn't seem to be enough demand for it, but you'd think ITP would have run the numbers already.

I would love to see that money go towards, say an M6 cross-town going from M6/Wilson to the 49/Davenport/Broadmoor....put a couple of park and ride lots at each end, then extend the 8-RivertownGrandville, 16-Wyoming-MetroHealth and 2-Kalamazoo routes to cross M6.

The bus could get off at 68th/131, head East on 68th, cross over the 1-Division and 4-Eastern routes, then get back on at M6/Kzoo.

I would ride that bus.

[aowwt]

okay how does it duplicate an existing route when Bus 1 is stopping every 1/8th of a mile where the new BRT line will ONLY stop every mile or half mile. Second the speed of this bus makes it very quick service. I laugh when people complain that they do not see how the bus could get to downtown so fast. Frankly I seen and been in bumper to bumper traffic on the S curve. Its not fun where the BRT line running the way it would be extremely faster since it would keep at a good 30 to 35 mph.

I would like us in the future to remove all of the lines in the future and replace them with BRT lines if this is succesful. I am more of a libertian than a conservative and frankly I see that some services should be provided by the government. Mass Transit, safety are some of the things that need to provided. How we pay for them would be best by property taxes IMHO. Frankly I support anybody who wants to get rid of the income tax and use a property tax for the federal government. If the government gets a steady income source they can provide a better and stable service than having to cut programs left and right.

As for another reason to support this, all of the lines that have been built a 1/4 mile radius around each station has seen anywheres from 200 to 1000 percent increase in development. I am not just talking commerical buildings but also residential buildings. Its quite a amazing. Cleveland has seen 1000 percent BEFORE it was completed. Thats right the cost of the project spurred 10 times that amount in developement. The Rapid is expecting around 400 percent. I have heard through the grapevine that multiple developers are waiting in the wings to start putting in buildings. This has already got Kentwood and Wyoming Planning folks to start thinking of diffrent ways to make sure what gets built conforms to the overall plan along Division.

Now here is another thought process. Grand Rapids, Kentwood, and Wyoming are facing budget shortfalls either now or in the near future. If we get that BRT line to pass they may not have to raise taxes to keep the limited services that we are paying for even though they do need to raise them to expand services. Lastly I like to see 28th Street be a BRT line as well. That line could connect the Airport to Metro health via Rivertown Crossings and Woodland Mall plus support two Downtown districts of Grandville and Wyoming.

[d8alterego]

You reinforced my point though that the government pays for the highway. No PRIVATE companies said, "hey, let's share in the cost of building this highway." Every single road or highway comes from government funding. It doesn't matter what tax pays for it. It is ALL government.

The interstate construction is funded by the federal fuel tax $0.40 on every gallon of fuel purchased in MI. Maintenance is funded by the state fuel tax $0.19 on every gallon of gasoline bought in MI. State, county and city roads are funded with their respective share of the State Fuel tax and vehicle registration. NO general fund money in MI is used for roads - check out the state budget if you don't believe me. Some cities and some townships put some general fund money into road work but it isn't the major funding source. The highway fuel taxes funds roads, the user pays .

[crinzema]

If this is to spur 400% in development, than why can't we tax those business 4 fold to pay for this? Would that make a difference in development for the better? Than why tax a whole region for the benefit of a small area? Those who stand to see the benefits of this project are the ones who should pay.

[aowwt]

The issue is that if the line were to get built I may park near 36th or 28th to go downtown. I tell ya its a great method of traveling up to downtown. You also have to consider that for a good portion of Kentwood, they have only 3 ways to get into downtown, Kalamazoo onto M6 then 131, 54th St exit and 44th St. Those streets get backed up pretty far to get on. From Kzoo to Byron Center you are looking at around 50k or so cars on M6. Thats a lot of traffic already on that freeway. Commuting is a major problem in that area. The left turn lane on Division to 54th gets backed up around 1/4 miles. So to say just the business should pay for this is hillarous when a lot of the people who will use this live in those areas that will use the BRT line. Granted EGR, Walker, or Grandville will not use the line they will be served by future BRT lines if this get passed. Grandville is probally the next one to get served with Walker and EGR with the 3rd one.

[Raildudes dad]

You reinforced my point though that the government pays for the highway. No PRIVATE companies said, "hey, let's share in the cost of building this highway." Every single road or highway comes from government funding. It doesn't matter what tax pays for it. It is ALL government.

The USER pays the tax, the government does not pay, it collects the tax from the USER (ie person/company that buys license plates and fuel) and returns it to the highway agencies to construct and maintain the highways. Private companies either own their own trucks that pay the USER taxes or hire companies with trucks that pay the USER taxes.

Back in the 20's the farmers in MI graded the roads in front of their property in lieu of property taxes. The Good Roads movement converted the tax from a property tax base to the user tax we have today.

If you don't want to fund highways, quit driving.

[aowwt]

Another point I like to make is that if you do not want to property taxes for public transit then go to Europe where they charge over 50% of the price of a litre of petrol for public transit. I much prefer our method of paying property taxes since I dont feel the hurt as much. Plus if it will only cost .16 mills for one route I like see us pay an additional 1 mill instead and get my 28th St BRT line and an Alpine Ave BRT line.

[crinzema]

I'm surprised no one noticed the video I place in a previous post of the small electric vehicle developed my Segway and GM called the PUMA. This "invention" could make the BRT line and the modern car obsolete.

[John E]

Yeah, not so sure about the silver line. Wouldn't seem to be enough demand for it, but you'd think ITP would have run the numbers already.

I would love to see that money go towards, say an M6 cross-town going from M6/Wilson to the 49/Davenport/Broadmoor....put a couple of park and ride lots at each end, then extend the 8-RivertownGrandville, 16-Wyoming-MetroHealth and 2-Kalamazoo routes to cross M6.

The bus could get off at 68th/131, head East on 68th, cross over the 1-Division and 4-Eastern routes, then get back on at M6/Kzoo.

I would ride that bus.

Have you submitted this new route suggestion to the Rapid? It sounds like it could be a very productive route improvement that could be used with future improvements.

~John

I'm surprised no one noticed the video I place in a previous post of the small electric vehicle developed my Segway and GM called the PUMA. This "invention" could make the BRT line and the modern car obsolete.

I don't think it will fly in America.

~John

[GRDadof3]

I'm surprised no one noticed the video I place in a previous post of the small electric vehicle developed my Segway and GM called the PUMA. This "invention" could make the BRT line and the modern car obsolete.

I've seen it. It's not going to revolutionize anything, much like the other Segway hasn't.