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Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

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Speaking of development. aowwt, I don't mean to pester. Seeing how this thing is over, can you say who that developer in the wings was or what was planned -- any details?

Looks like The Rapid is going to take steps to learn what its options are concerning the Silver Line. :dontknow:

Also, K'Zoo passed its transit millage by an overwhelming 63%. I think had the Silver Line not been on the ballot this would have been 52%-48%/55%-45% in favor.

I did a quick graphic to illustrate the vote at the precinct level. Although, most of the cities were solidly against and didn't need to be illustrated. One precinct in GR was tied and is represented in gray. Grand Rapids and Kentwood, however....

We don't need sustainability, we don't need fancy mass transit, we don't need a world class zoo, we don't need better water treatment and a cleaner Grand River. We have plenty of nice sandy beaches here in West Michigan in which we enjoy burying our heads and that's enough for us.

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Yeah...

Way to start lashing out at people for voting no.

If you want to call us stupid, good luck on expecting YES votes in the future.

The responsibility lies with ITP for not making a better case or having a better plan. As far as I saw, we either got hyperbole or half-baked promises, and no honest to goodness idea of why this was needed. To sum up their campaign:

1) Build BRT.

2) ???

3) Profit!

They had 5 years to get this right, but they arrogantly just assumed that people will go along with anything they say, foolishly thinking that we saw mass transit as a no-brainier that we will toss cash at. All they had to do was to stick it on a ballot. We are not a guarantee source of funds, and we dont appreciate being insulted for making a free decision. I think a lot of people saw this as an effort by, for, and of BRT activists, and not something that really tried to honestly benefit the majority of people.

Come up with a better plan next time, use reasonable language, and respect opposition as being valid and not a bunch of hicks who are burying their head in the sand.

Edited by GR_Urbanist

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Speaking of development. aowwt, I don't mean to pester. Seeing how this thing is over, can you say who that developer in the wings was or what was planned -- any details?

Looks like The Rapid is going to take steps to learn what its options are concerning the Silver Line. :dontknow:

Also, K'Zoo passed its transit millage by an overwhelming 63%. I think had the Silver Line not been on the ballot this would have been 52%-48%/55%-45% in favor.

I did a quick graphic to illustrate the vote at the precinct level. Although, most of the cities were solidly against and didn't need to be illustrated. One precinct in GR was tied and is represented in gray. Grand Rapids and Kentwood, however....

3507042495_9e2d57f939_o.png

Thanks for the map Rizzo. Maybe it's time to propose light rail between EGR and downtown GR instead. :whistling:

I think GRUrbanist is right. If they go at this again, they need to come up with 3 - 5 pressing transportation issues that the Silver Line solves, or goes a long way toward solving. $40 Million is a big chunk of change for one bus line, in a lot of voters' minds. Especially when a bus line already exists in this corridor.

If I came to your company trying to sell you a better version of something you already have, I better provide some pretty darn good reasons for you to spend $40 Million.

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What I found out was at the Fisher Station Charette. From what I could tell, the gentleman that handles most of the selling of properties on Division was approached by multiple people asking about properties on Division. Considering that he represented one of largest commerical sellers in the area I kept it quite mum. Its been a while so I did not keep track of names but needless to say multiple people were looking at properties.

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Dad the money was already OURS. All we had to do pass a 1 dollar a month millage request (at 150k taxable value house) to get the 40 million.

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Thanks for the map Rizzo. Maybe it's time to propose light rail between EGR and downtown GR instead. :whistling:

Great idea.. never happen. If people won't vote for something that serves several municipalities along the Division Ave. corridor, they're sure not going to vote for something that just connects EGR with GR.

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Dad the money was already OURS. All we had to do pass a 1 dollar a month millage request (at 150k taxable value house) to get the 40 million.

In defense of the no-votes, there are several hundred "inconsequential" millages that add up to my current tax burden. It's death by 1,000 cuts.

I voted "yes" but just barely. I can certainly see why people voted "no."

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Maybe it's time to propose light rail between EGR and downtown GR instead. whistling.gif

Great idea.. never happen. If people won't vote for something that serves several municipalities along the Division Ave. corridor, they're sure not going to vote for something that just connects EGR with GR.

I believe that was intended to be humorous, not sincere.

HTH

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Thanks for the map Rizzo. Maybe it's time to propose light rail between EGR and downtown GR instead. :whistling:

I think GRUrbanist is right. If they go at this again, they need to come up with 3 - 5 pressing transportation issues that the Silver Line solves, or goes a long way toward solving. $40 Million is a big chunk of change for one bus line, in a lot of voters' minds. Especially when a bus line already exists in this corridor.

If I came to your company trying to sell you a better version of something you already have, I better provide some pretty darn good reasons for you to spend $40 Million.

2012 is a good time to propose a light rail project to the private sector. Let the private groups experiment with rail. They were more excited and responsive to rail then bus anyway.

Edited by Rizzo

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Dad the money was already OURS. All we had to do pass a 1 dollar a month millage request (at 150k taxable value house) to get the 40 million.

Obviously that argument did not overwhelmingly sway the voters. And maybe no massaging of the message would have gotten any better than 48% right now.

My comment about EGR is that they obviously support expanding mass transit, even if it doesn't serve their area. Financial support would probably equal good ridership numbers. You know, that little thing called "demand for service." :)

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Maybe it's time to propose light rail between EGR and downtown GR instead. whistling.gif

I believe that was intended to be humorous, not sincere.

HTH

Yeah I know... but it's not entirely humorous. It would work! :-)

At least EGR voted for it. We cannot all be rich jerks driving Escalades around. ;)

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Neither Michigan nor GR has ever seen any of it's tax dollars come back to our state from the FTA. You may not have loved every bit of it but this is the project that the feds would fund. This one. Not the in our dreams, but this one. This is the project that could have at least started our region on the path to real mass transit. And please don't compare BRT to regular bus service, I have ridden BRT and I regularly ride the Division route. There is no comparison, absolutely none.

This was our best shot of getting the transit ball rolling in our city. How can that be anything but a risk worth taking? Now we are back to spinning our wheels again. Meanwhile every year many of our best and brightest pack up an move elsewhere. I've personally said goodbye to several in the last couple of years. I'm not trying to be alarmist, this is simply my experience and if I had a more portable career, I'd be on Monster and MediaBistro today searching for jobs in Chi/New/Port/Austin. Because, I'll be honest, this morning it seems as though this is not really the city that I tell myself I love. This is not the area that I try to sell all my friends on.

The case was made and the case was solid. Some may have sincerely considered the details and found it lacking, but many many more simply wanted to say no to a minuscule tax increase because it meant they had a small measure of control over the current financial chaos. I called dozens of those people over the last week and everyone had made their decision without even seeking a single scrap of information for or against the project.

As far as I'm concerned it's on the 'no-voters' to explain how taking the first step towards a fixed-guideway transit system is somehow a bad thing. The risk was so small, the rewards long term from having a foot in the door with the FTA could be so great. Call it federal cash grab if you like, but the truth is we are not likely to get permanent transit infrastructure built without FTA funds and this is the project that they would fund. You may not like their requirements, they may not make sense to you but it is the system within which we have to work. And that system demands a mix of current ridership (what you call duplication of services is a requirement!) and many other factors which add up to Division.

How, specifically, is this a bad project to get us started? Do you honestly disbelieve the experience of other cities that have made similar investments? Why? Everyone that I talked to riding the Cleveland brt had nothing but praise for the experience. Are you really able to dismiss it as 'not as good as rail' and therefore bad? Please help me understand, because right now I'm more disappointed with my 'place' than I can even express.

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Neither Michigan nor GR has ever seen any of it's tax dollars come back to our state from the FTA. You may not have loved every bit of it but this is the project that the feds would fund. This one. Not the in our dreams, but this one. This is the project that could have at least started our region on the path to real mass transit. And please don't compare BRT to regular bus service, I have ridden BRT and I regularly ride the Division route. There is no comparison, absolutely none.

This was our best shot of getting the transit ball rolling in our city. How can that be anything but a risk worth taking? Now we are back to spinning our wheels again. Meanwhile every year many of our best and brightest pack up an move elsewhere. I've personally said goodbye to several in the last couple of years. I'm not trying to be alarmist, this is simply my experience and if I had a more portable career, I'd be on Monster and MediaBistro today searching for jobs in Chi/New/Port/Austin. Because, I'll be honest, this morning it seems as though this is not really the city that I tell myself I love. This is not the area that I try to sell all my friends on.

The case was made and the case was solid. Some may have sincerely considered the details and found it lacking, but many many more simply wanted to say no to a minuscule tax increase because it meant they had a small measure of control over the current financial chaos. I called dozens of those people over the last week and everyone had made their decision without even seeking a single scrap of information for or against the project.

As far as I'm concerned it's on the 'no-voters' to explain how taking the first step towards a fixed-guideway transit system is somehow a bad thing. The risk was so small, the rewards long term from having a foot in the door with the FTA could be so great. Call it federal cash grab if you like, but the truth is we are not likely to get permanent transit infrastructure built without FTA funds and this is the project that they would fund. You may not like their requirements, they may not make sense to you but it is the system within which we have to work. And that system demands a mix of current ridership (what you call duplication of services is a requirement!) and many other factors which add up to Division.

How, specifically, is this a bad project to get us started? Do you honestly disbelieve the experience of other cities that have made similar investments? Why? Everyone that I talked to riding the Cleveland brt had nothing but praise for the experience. Are you really able to dismiss it as 'not as good as rail' and therefore bad? Please help me understand, because right now I'm more disappointed with my 'place' than I can even express.

I'll say this again. It was the economy. Back in 2002-2003 no one could have predicted 11-13% unemployment. This vote was a kitchen table issue. Not some anti-transit upheaval. A good portion of those no voters will be right back voting yes in 2011 for the renewal. Unless Dave Bulkowski speaks frankly again to WZZM.

You might want to rethink your question about Grand Rapids. Don't let this shake your belief in what your home is capable of. Just fault the circumstance. Like I said, this was a kitchen table issue this year. Not a referendum on transit.

Edited by Rizzo

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Neither Michigan nor GR has ever seen any of it's tax dollars come back to our state from the FTA. You may not have loved every bit of it but this is the project that the feds would fund. This one. Not the in our dreams, but this one. This is the project that could have at least started our region on the path to real mass transit. And please don't compare BRT to regular bus service, I have ridden BRT and I regularly ride the Division route. There is no comparison, absolutely none.

This was our best shot of getting the transit ball rolling in our city. How can that be anything but a risk worth taking? Now we are back to spinning our wheels again. Meanwhile every year many of our best and brightest pack up an move elsewhere. I've personally said goodbye to several in the last couple of years. I'm not trying to be alarmist, this is simply my experience and if I had a more portable career, I'd be on Monster and MediaBistro today searching for jobs in Chi/New/Port/Austin. Because, I'll be honest, this morning it seems as though this is not really the city that I tell myself I love. This is not the area that I try to sell all my friends on.

The case was made and the case was solid. Some may have sincerely considered the details and found it lacking, but many many more simply wanted to say no to a minuscule tax increase because it meant they had a small measure of control over the current financial chaos. I called dozens of those people over the last week and everyone had made their decision without even seeking a single scrap of information for or against the project.

As far as I'm concerned it's on the 'no-voters' to explain how taking the first step towards a fixed-guideway transit system is somehow a bad thing. The risk was so small, the rewards long term from having a foot in the door with the FTA could be so great. Call it federal cash grab if you like, but the truth is we are not likely to get permanent transit infrastructure built without FTA funds and this is the project that they would fund. You may not like their requirements, they may not make sense to you but it is the system within which we have to work. And that system demands a mix of current ridership (what you call duplication of services is a requirement!) and many other factors which add up to Division.

How, specifically, is this a bad project to get us started? Do you honestly disbelieve the experience of other cities that have made similar investments? Why? Everyone that I talked to riding the Cleveland brt had nothing but praise for the experience. Are you really able to dismiss it as 'not as good as rail' and therefore bad? Please help me understand, because right now I'm more disappointed with my 'place' than I can even express.

Thanks, Andy...between this vote and the idiots spewing crap about ArtPrize by way of trashing our community and reinforcing all the same, old, tired stereotypes about GR, it does make me wonder if I've been brainwashing myself to think GR could ever get to someplace other than where we've already been for the last 40 years.

I'm looking forward to another decade of the status quo...it's invigorating.

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Neither Michigan nor GR has ever seen any of it's tax dollars come back to our state from the FTA. You may not have loved every bit of it but this is the project that the feds would fund. This one. Not the in our dreams, but this one. This is the project that could have at least started our region on the path to real mass transit. And please don't compare BRT to regular bus service, I have ridden BRT and I regularly ride the Division route. There is no comparison, absolutely none.

This was our best shot of getting the transit ball rolling in our city. How can that be anything but a risk worth taking? Now we are back to spinning our wheels again. Meanwhile every year many of our best and brightest pack up an move elsewhere. I've personally said goodbye to several in the last couple of years. I'm not trying to be alarmist, this is simply my experience and if I had a more portable career, I'd be on Monster and MediaBistro today searching for jobs in Chi/New/Port/Austin. Because, I'll be honest, this morning it seems as though this is not really the city that I tell myself I love. This is not the area that I try to sell all my friends on.

The case was made and the case was solid. Some may have sincerely considered the details and found it lacking, but many many more simply wanted to say no to a minuscule tax increase because it meant they had a small measure of control over the current financial chaos. I called dozens of those people over the last week and everyone had made their decision without even seeking a single scrap of information for or against the project.

As far as I'm concerned it's on the 'no-voters' to explain how taking the first step towards a fixed-guideway transit system is somehow a bad thing. The risk was so small, the rewards long term from having a foot in the door with the FTA could be so great. Call it federal cash grab if you like, but the truth is we are not likely to get permanent transit infrastructure built without FTA funds and this is the project that they would fund. You may not like their requirements, they may not make sense to you but it is the system within which we have to work. And that system demands a mix of current ridership (what you call duplication of services is a requirement!) and many other factors which add up to Division.

How, specifically, is this a bad project to get us started? Do you honestly disbelieve the experience of other cities that have made similar investments? Why? Everyone that I talked to riding the Cleveland brt had nothing but praise for the experience. Are you really able to dismiss it as 'not as good as rail' and therefore bad? Please help me understand, because right now I'm more disappointed with my 'place' than I can even express.

I would say you are probably right that the Silver Line was an easy target for an increasingly frustrated electorate, upset about the current financial mess and how it is being handled ($Trillions going out the door). Maybe 48% in this climate should be looked at as "not too bad." :dontknow:

People don't really care about the FTA (most probably think it's an airline or something), and don't care about their methodology. They just want solutions to pressing matters. Apparently the majority didn't think this was one of them, no matter what the price tag. And that it was just a fancier version of what is already there. I've never ridden a BRT, so honestly I can't get my arms around the difference between it and a regular bus. I've been on plenty of rail systems, and the difference between those and the buses I've ridden is profound. I'm not convinced by the Federal government that BRT is where everyone should be heading.

Personally, Grand Rapids can do a lot more on a lot of other fronts to attract and retain young people, if that were a big reason for this. Young people can think we're the coolest place, but won't stay if they can't find work or don't find it an inviting place to start a business. Cleveland is a prime example. They have light rail and BRT, yet they are a sinking ship, and probably not a great city to emulate.

Understandably it's frustrating for the big supporters of this. What's the old saying: "You have to get a few "no's" before you'll ever get to a yes."

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The vote isn't going to make or break GR. Many cities go through multiple attempts before successfully passing transit type initiatives.

You've got a voting public out there that's still shell shocked economically and the very mention of added taxes, regardless of its benefits, conveys immediate distaste for many at this financially sensitive time. If gas was still at $4/gal it might of had a fighting chance ... frankly I wish it still was.

Also there's a great sense of future uncertainty out there. It doesn't help that the state (not necessarily GR but by association typically is) seems to make everyone's bottom list. There's empty stores all over, and with so many trying to leave (or considering) it's no wonder there's a lack of local committment to the future. I'm fairly new here but aren't Wyoming & Kentwood intractably tied to the auto industry to some degree?

To tell you the truth I marvel at how well traffic flows here compared to other cities. Go to Seattle sometime if you want to see a real mess, in fact it got so bad they overwhelmingly passed a near $20 billion mass transit vote just last year.

Maybe this is simply a cart before the horse scenario but to me the city needs to get its feet on firm financial ground first. There needs to be an influx of new jobs and the prospects for growth that will change people's attitudes to say 'hey, things are looking better, best we move forward'.

Under the circumstances I'm surprised the vote was that close.

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I've never ridden a BRT, so honestly I can't get my arms around the difference between it and a regular bus. I've been on plenty of rail systems, and the difference between those and the buses I've ridden is profound.

Glad I'm not the only one. :scared:

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I would say you are probably right that the Silver Line was an easy target for an in I've never ridden a BRT, so honestly I can't get my arms around the difference between it and a regular bus. I've been on plenty of rail systems, and the difference between those and the buses I've ridden is profound. I'm not convinced by the Federal government that BRT is where everyone should be heading.

I was never extremely excited about the BRT for the same reason (though I did vote for it - it would have been at least a step in the right direction). For a lot of people that I talked to about it - even people generally supportive of mass transit - the question I heard the most was "how is this different than a regular bus?"

Light rail, on the other hand, is a much different animal. In addition to the ease of showing the difference between rail and buses, I think it will also lead to transit proponents being much more excited about it, which will translate into better turnout. I'm extremely pro-transit, but I had a difficult time motivating myself to sell the millage to others when my main rationale was based more on trusting the ITP than excitement over the actual millage.

On a side note, a neighbor across the street had a "No to millages" sign (hand-written with permanent marker) out yesterday. This is the same neighbor that had a "No communism, no socialism, Nobama" sign last fall, so I guess it's to be expected.

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Thanks, Andy...between this vote and the idiots spewing crap about ArtPrize by way of trashing our community and reinforcing all the same, old, tired stereotypes about GR, it does make me wonder if I've been brainwashing myself to think GR could ever get to someplace other than where we've already been for the last 40 years.

I'm looking forward to another decade of the status quo...it's invigorating.

Many people here have a deep sense of spiritual connectivity to this town. Let me tell you, because of this you have nothing to worry about. I say that with veracity, because there is leadership in this town that gives a damn. There are stewards that fight everyday and work endlessly to see this place succeed. This transcends transit advocacy and makes it way onto the profiteers and community activists of all issues and sectors in the metro.

For some, last night quelled the aspirations for a better future, but don't follow suit.

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I was never extremely excited about the BRT for the same reason (though I did vote for it - it would have been at least a step in the right direction). For a lot of people that I talked to about it - even people generally supportive of mass transit - the question I heard the most was "how is this different than a regular bus?"

Light rail, on the other hand, is a much different animal. In addition to the ease of showing the difference between rail and buses, I think it will also lead to transit proponents being much more excited about it, which will translate into better turnout. I'm extremely pro-transit, but I had a difficult time motivating myself to sell the millage to others when my main rationale was based more on trusting the ITP than excitement over the actual millage.

On a side note, a neighbor across the street had a "No to millages" sign (hand-written with permanent marker) out yesterday. This is the same neighbor that had a "No communism, no socialism, Nobama" sign last fall, so I guess it's to be expected.

One positive that comes out of a no vote: you go back and take a look at your proposal and your business proposition. Does it make sense? Does it solve a problem? Kansas City voted down 8 light rail initiatives before they finally passed one. And KS is definitely not losing people because of it. Quite the contrary, their economy has been going gang-busters over the last 10 years. But that's the whole thing, their economy is growing, their population is swelling, roads are getting more and more congested, people want solutions (or at least alternatives).

One big question I always had on the Silver Line: If this system was supposed to pull people off of 131 (the whole reason for making it better than the current Division route), where were the park-n-rides? Were people supposed to park at gas stations or at used car dealerships and hop on the BRT?

BTW: Troy Reimink at the Press is sending people our way:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ind..._line_vote.html

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One positive that comes out of a no vote: you go back and take a look at your proposal and your business proposition. Does it make sense? Does it solve a problem? Kansas City voted down 8 light rail initiatives before they finally passed one. And KS is definitely not losing people because of it. Quite the contrary, their economy has been going gang-busters over the last 10 years. But that's the whole thing, their economy is growing, their population is swelling, roads are getting more and more congested, people want solutions (or at least alternatives).

One big question I always had on the Silver Line: If this system was supposed to pull people off of 131 (the whole reason for making it better than the current Division route), where were the park-n-rides? Were people supposed to park at gas stations or at used car dealerships and hop on the BRT?

I think they were mostly banking on US131 drivers who live within walking distance of stations. I did the numbers and around each station there was a range of about 1000-7000 people within a half mile walking distance of each station. The highest according to my analysis, being Burton and the least being 54th and 36th Streets.

Edited by Rizzo

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I think they were mostly banking at US131 drivers who live within walking distance of stations. I did the numbers and around each station there was a pool of about 1000-7000 people within a half mile walking distance of each station.

Yes, but if you look at the demographics of downtown workers (mainly middle to upper middle professionals), they don't exactly align with the demographics of people who live within a mile of South Division. More likely they live in Bryon Center, Kentwood, Caledonia, Dorr and Southern Wyoming, and could theoretically go for a park-n-ride system to get them downtown.

Speaking of Kansas City:

[vimeo]4360553[/vimeo]

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Thanks, Andy...between this vote and the idiots spewing crap about ArtPrize by way of trashing our community and reinforcing all the same, old, tired stereotypes about GR, it does make me wonder if I've been brainwashing myself to think GR could ever get to someplace other than where we've already been for the last 40 years.

I'm looking forward to another decade of the status quo...it's invigorating.

With all due respect, that attitude is what will keep losing you votes or support on things you want.

You guys want to keep trashing people of this area like we are all a bunch of backwoods goons? Then you are going to see even heaver opposition next time around. People on the NO side gave valid reasons why they said no. We are not here to ensure some "young person" can have a BRT toy to play on. If they leave GR over something so flaky then good riddance, because they are spoiled brats that really need to get some perspective on life. And if you can't love this area over something like this, then you never really loved it anyway.

That my way or the highway stuff wont get you far no mater where you go.

No "solid case" for this thing was made. Like we said before, it is a bus that ran through a rundown part of the area, full of nothing that was a draw for anyone, and served no immediate need, but taxes would still go up to keep the thing running in the hopes that all types of cool stuff was going to result. Just dont ask what that is cause the ITP couldn't name anything. It reeked of an effort just to put a bullet point in a brochure to send out to companies looking to relocate. Come to GR: We have a BRT! Just dont ask us where it runs to...

But who cares about those little things that we small-minded folks actually considered when voting no. We are all just stupid people who reinforce the stereotypes of actual small-minded people in other cities that look down on us for not having a BRT.

Come up with a better plan, in small stages, that has a BRT or whatever, run to someplace where people live and want to go. Build it small, and build it right. Work with all the people and address their VALID concerns with things like townhalls and better presentations.

Where was the 7:00 special on WoodTV detailing BRT and how it would be good for us?

Where were the developers in ads stating that they had projects on the drawing boards along this route?

Where were the renderings of the stations that would have been built? Would have been pretty inspiring to see all of this stuff drawn out. Would have won you some votes.

What the heck did ITP do for 5 years when they should have been educating the public?!

It's not my responsibility to reward them for a shoddy effort. Maybe they thought yard signs and a snotty attitude towards dissenters would win the day? Sorry.

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Yes, but if you look at the demographics of downtown workers (mainly middle to upper middle professionals), they don't exactly align with the demographics of people who live within a mile of South Division. More likely they live in Bryon Center, Kentwood, Caledonia, Dorr and Southern Wyoming, and could theoretically go for a park-n-ride system to get them downtown.

Well, then I suspect that the potential draw for park and ride on this route would be very low. I'm thinking a max of 2-3 miles for cutoff, but that's generous. Regardless, the Feds got 7,000 boardings for the average weekday.

For an anecdote, all I can say it that I knew of a nurse, some GRCC people and a graphic designer who lived near Division that also worked downtown.

With all due respect, that attitude is what will keep losing you votes or support on things you want.

You guys want to keep trashing people of this area like we are all a bunch of backwoods goons? Then you are going to see even heaver opposition next time around. People on the NO side gave valid reasons why they said no. We are not here to ensure some "young person" can have a BRT toy to play on. If they leave GR over something so flaky then good riddance, because they are spoiled brats that really need to get some perspective on life. And if you can't love this area over something like this, then you never really loved it anyway.

That my way or the highway stuff wont get you far no mater where you go.

No "solid case" for this thing was made. Like we said before, it is a bus that ran through a rundown part of the area, full of nothing that was a draw for anyone, and served no immediate need, but taxes would still go up to keep the thing running in the hopes that all types of cool stuff was going to result. Just dont ask what that is cause the ITP couldn't name anything. It reeked of an effort just to put a bullet point in a brochure to send out to companies looking to relocate. Come to GR: We have a BRT! Just dont ask us where it runs to...

But who cares about those little things that we small-minded folks actually considered when voting no. We are all just stupid people who reinforce the stereotypes of actual small-minded people in other cities that look down on us for not having a BRT.

Come up with a better plan, in small stages, that has a BRT or whatever, run to someplace where people live and want to go. Build it small, and build it right. Work with all the people and address their VALID concerns with things like townhalls and better presentations.

Where was the 7:00 special on WoodTV detailing BRT and how it would be good for us?

Where were the developers in ads stating that they had projects on the drawing boards along this route?

Where were the renderings of the stations that would have been built? Would have been pretty inspiring to see all of this stuff drawn out. Would have won you some votes.

What the heck did ITP do for 5 years when they should have been educating the public?!

It's not my responsibility to reward them for a shoddy effort. Maybe they thought yard signs and a snotty attitude towards dissenters would win the day? Sorry.

Just for clarification, ITP nor The Rapid can politic the millage campaign. Only Friends of Transit et. al. So your hostility is misplaced. Also, I don't know who here is calling out 'no' voters as 'backwoods goons.'

Edited by Rizzo

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I have been slightly agiated by the no voters but I have not called them names of that sort. I think the voters of wyoming who voted no think the label for wyoming is backwardness not Vision and Progress. But alas thats the most I have said about no voters.

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