Uptown Charlotte vs. Downtown Atlanta

[Newnan]

downtown is infact in the upswing, with posh eateries and retailers moving farther south and many tourist attractions such as the GA aquarium gaining popularity.

You also can't forget the renewed interest in downtown living.

[teshadoh]

As a commercial office center - yes downtown Atlanta has been on a decline for 15 years.

As a retail center - yes downtown Atlanta has again been on a decline for 15 to 35 years.

As an entertainment (nightlife / culinary) center - marginal, though the 1970's was likely the peak of entertainment in downtown, there does appear to be a recent upswing.

As a cultural center (with culture being relative) - downtown continues to be on an upswing & especially in the past 5 years on a very hot streak.

As a residential center - that is not debatable, downtown was one of the few areas in the 1990's to gain in population & it's future peak is not even in sight. Phenomenal growth has occured, making some areas of downtown among the fastest growing in the Atlanta metro in the past 5 years.

[AuLukey]

Honestly. I think Atlanta take the cake on everything. I would compare Charlottes DT more along the lines of Nashville and Jacksonville. I'm sorry, but Uptown is not in the same league as ATL's. ATL is more comparable to places like Houston, Dallas, Miami, etc.

I have never been to Nashville, to be completely honest, so I can't compare it to Charlotte by anything except pictures and forums. However, I was born and grew up for a good chunk of my life in Jacksonville and I frequently visit it. Downtown Jax is in no way comparable to CLT. I'd like to say it is because it is on my list of where I would like to move (if and when I do) in 08' due to the St Johns project. Clt doesn't have a whole lot of night life but that is more than obviously changing in the next three years. Downtown Jax nightlife is borderline non-existant as for now.

As far as major downtowns, I would put Charlotte just under the "large dt" category and Jax barely scathing into that middle dt category. Atlanta quiet comparably is in the same situation. It is large, but pales in comparison to Miami and Houston. It sits at the bottom of the "large dt" category with, say, Seattle.

[SAV]

I have never been to Nashville, to be completely honest, so I can't compare it to Charlotte by anything except pictures and forums. However, I was born and grew up for a good chunk of my life in Jacksonville and I frequently visit it. Downtown Jax is in no way comparable to CLT. I'd like to say it is because it is on my list of where I would like to move (if and when I do) in 08' due to the St Johns project. Clt doesn't have a whole lot of night life but that is more than obviously changing in the next three years. Downtown Jax nightlife is borderline non-existant as for now.

As far as major downtowns, I would put Charlotte just under the "large dt" category and Jax barely scathing into that middle dt category. Atlanta quiet comparably is in the same situation. It is large, but pales in comparison to Miami and Houston. It sits at the bottom of the "large dt" category with, say, Seattle.

Atlanta is very much comparable to Houston and Miami "DT"........... c'mon now.

Charlotte's cool it's on the come-up. I think the CLT area is headed to the level that Atlanta and Dallas,Miami,Houston and wherever else are on now. But Atlanta is just in another league. I think ATL is headed to the next level.

My levels (Please don't take this to seriously......Please)

NewYork, LA, Chi-5

San Fran, D.C.-4

Atlanta, Miami- 3.8

Charlotte-2.6

[AuLukey]

Atlanta is very much comparable to Houston and Miami "DT"........... c'mon now.

Charlotte's cool it's on the come-up. I think the CLT area is headed to the level that Atlanta and Dallas,Miami,Houston and wherever else are on now. But Atlanta is just in another league. I think ATL is headed to the next level.

My levels (Please don't take this to seriously......Please)

NewYork, LA, Chi-5

San Fran, D.C.-4

Atlanta, Miami- 3.8

Charlotte-2.6

Oh, I agree, and in no way would I put down Atlanta when comparing it to Charlotte (Cough NASCAR HOF ) It's more of an issue that I was stating Charlotte would rate much higher than Jax. Atlanta has a long way to grow (as does Char) to catch Houston though. Miami, well, I just get so much more impressed by it when I see it than Atlanta. Just the way it's laid out.

Here, I'll rank them too

NYC, Chicago - 5

Houston - 4.5

LA, SF, Seattle - 4

Miami - 3.5

Atlanta - 3.4

Dallas, Columbus - 3.2

Charlotte, Detroit - 2.6

Jax - 1.8 (dont forget I love Jax, I'm rating DT)

Austin - 1.5

Memphis - 1 (just to put a perspective of smaller dt)

Started stretching myself thin on major cities I can remember that I've been to.

[A2]

Honestly. I think Atlanta take the cake on everything. I would compare Charlottes DT more along the lines of Nashville and Jacksonville. I'm sorry, but Uptown is not in the same league as ATL's. ATL is more comparable to places like Houston, Dallas, Miami, etc.

Actually they are Very comparible. In terms of leasable office space Atlanta's Downtown is actually smaller than Charlotte's Uptown. If you are comparing the total metro's office/retail/sporting/etc etc., ATL totally blows CLT's doors off.

Remember we are comparing Downtown districts, not metro's

A2

[Lady Celeste]

Actually they are Very comparible. In terms of leasable office space Atlanta's Downtown is actually smaller than Charlotte's Uptown. If you are comparing the total metro's office/retail/sporting/etc etc., ATL totally blows CLT's doors off.

Remember we are comparing Downtown districts, not metro's

A2

Actually A2, per this thread in the Charlotte section, Downtown/Uptown rentable space, Uptown Charlotte has less leasable space than Downtown Atlanta.

Sorry to be such a stickler.

Anyway, everyone back to the topic...

[A2]

Actually A2, per this thread in the Charlotte section, Downtown/Uptown rentable space, Uptown Charlotte has less leasable space than Downtown Atlanta.

Sorry to be such a stickler.

Anyway, everyone back to the topic...

I remember the post. However, back then I did not have data. Here is the 2005 report (Q4)

Charlotte has well over 20M sq feet of office space in Uptown. It is roughly 20% larger than Atlanta's Downtown District.

Atlanta has less than 17M (again this is its Downtown District) Please note ATL's figures are from 2004. (@16.6M)

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/DoingBusine...own_Profile.asp

Charlotte's data Q4 2005:

http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repositori..._off_report.pdf

Again the total office for ATL in its Metro blows the doors off of CLT, but for comparing Downtown districts Charlotte is Larger.

A2

[Lady Celeste]

Don't even pull that one man. It's obvious Charlotte's DT is waaaaay smaller than ATL's. Charlotte reminds me of Nashville with a BOA building. It's nice man, but come on. There's no comparison. Charlotte is on the level of Nashville, Memphis, Jacksonville, Orlando, Fort Worth, or something like that. ATL is the big bog. No it's not Chicago, NY, or LA, but it's on the level right under those.

Here we go again....

Raleighsfinest, your assertion that Uptown Charlotte is waaaaaay smaller than Downtwon Atlanta is also incorrect. To keep people from having to read the link...

Downtown Atlanta - 16,769,775 sq ft of leasable space.

Uptown Charlotte - 14,416,071 sq ft of leasable space.

Remember the thread is comparing "downtowns" not overall metros.

[Lady Celeste]

I remember the post. However, back then I did not have data. Here is the 2005 report (Q4)

Charlotte has well over 20M sq feet of office space in Uptown. It is roughly 20% larger than Atlanta's Downtown District.

Atlanta has less than 17M (again this is its Downtown District) Please note ATL's figures are from 2004. (@16.6M)

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/DoingBusine...own_Profile.asp

Charlotte's data Q4 2005:

http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repositori..._off_report.pdf

Again the total office for ATL in its Metro blows the doors off of CLT, but for comparing Downtown districts Charlotte is Larger.

A2

WOW....talk about how fast these places are growing. When i went back to my source in that thread, I find that they are listing Atlanta's downtown leasable space for first quarter 2006 as...

21,172,129.

Source: Downtown's leasable space

Your source list Atlanta's downtown office space as the same number.

A2's source: Downtown Atlanta's leasable office space

So after using the same source, Downtown has more office space.

[A2]

Here we go again....

Raleighsfinest, your assertion that Uptown Charlotte is waaaaaay smaller than Downtwon Atlanta is also incorrect. To keep people from having to read the link...

Downtown Atlanta - 16,769,775 sq ft of leasable space.

Uptown Charlotte - 14,416,071 sq ft of leasable space.

Remember the thread is comparing "downtowns" not overall metros.

So Uptown Charlotte grew by 6,000,000 square feet in one year. Wow, that's impressive.

No. For some reason the people posting were not giving acurate data. The reports many touted were 2000 numbers.

Every source that I have found put ATL at 17M and Charlotte around 20M. ATL's number is from 2004. CLT's is from 2005. So there might be some minor changes in both numbers once 2006 reports come out.

A2

(Again LC. I want to stress we are talking Downtowns only. My former home of ALT has more than double the office space of CLT when comparing total Metro Markets. )

[Lady Celeste]

See my post just above yours.

[A2]

See my post just above yours.

Just did. My report I listed was from 2004. It makes sense though. A lot of projects came on line in ATL with the completion of some projects (ie Atlantic Station) that were not on line when the report came out.

Since I have now seen the 2006 (Q1) report. I would say the cities are in a virtual dead heat when comparing Downtown Office Space.

~20-21M Uptown Charlotte

~21 Downtown Atlanta

Again, so no lurker thinks I am touting ALT v CLT is a dead heat. This is just the Downtown Submarket.

A2

[Lady Celeste]

Just being my normal annoying self....

Atlantic station would NOT be consider downtown office space. I would wager that Atlantic Station would be combined with Midtown's numbers since the two locales are next to each other.

[A2]

I think the source might be bleeding in some of Midtown, since the other sources I have found still show in late 05' show less than 17M. I know I am splitting hairs, so I will shut up now.

http://www.gvaadvantis.com/filedownload.asp?id=230

What is incredible is that the Perimeter area has surpassed Downtown in a HUGE way.

A2

[Lady Celeste]

LOL.........yes I guess we are.........but I used your source. Since we are on one accord now we will go with your source. Especially since the other source does not follow the Charlotte office market.

BTW, that source only covers Class A office space. Your source list all classes of office space.

[A2]

One Interesting tidbit before I go to bed.

Atlanta has exactly double the office space in its entire Metro than Charlotte. ~64M versus ~128M.

It is also 2X as large in population. There was a thread that compared where cities would be in 25 years. Well I think the office, and pop numbers speak for themselves. I lived in ATL when the metro pierced 2M+MSA. Now it has more than doubled.

Charlotte's is roughly the same exact size as ALT was when I was living there in the early 80's.

I don't know why I am pointing this out, I just am. Not to mention, I remember that the first Ritz went in ATL in the early eighties, now CLT is building there first. Coincendence, possibly. But....

I tend to think that once a city hits a critical mass of people it either stops growing or it explodes.

Great comparrison for cities that hit 2M+ and either exploded or leveled off:

Saint Louis---Stayed level

Atlanta-------Expoloded (even in the 70's when the economy was dead)

Now the question that begs to be asked.

Will Charlotte explode or stagnate now that we are at the juncture Atlanta was at 2 decades ago?

A2

[Lady Celeste]

What is incredible is that the Perimeter area has surpassed Downtown in a HUGE way.

A2

I know we are getting slightly off topic......

From as long as I was old enough to care, the Perimeter Center area has had more office space than Downtown. I remember being in high school (I grew up in Dunwoody of Fulton), when the Concourse was being built (the King and Queen buildings @ GA400 and I-285) and the area was then known to have more office space than downtown Nashville.

[A2]

LOL.........yes I guess we are.........but I used your source. Since we are on one accord now we will go with your source. Especially since the other source does not follow the Charlotte office market.

BTW, that source only covers Class A office space. Your source list all classes of office space.

I show 10.6M of class A and total at just shy of 17 for 3Q of 2005.

Check it again. Maybe it is just waaaaaaay past my bedtime.

http://www.gvaadvantis.com/filedownload.asp?id=230

A2

[Lady Celeste]

Now the question that begs to be asked.

Will Charlotte explode or stagnate now that we are at the juncture Atlanta was at 2 decades ago?

A2

I have no doubt that Charlotte will follow the same route Atlanta has. Odd enough, I was too young to remember when Atlanta got it's first Ritz. I think those of you who care about development and live in Charlotte are lucky. You are getting a chance to see many things happen right before your eyes. Living here....and Atlanta has a long way to go...some things are just ho hum ho hum. I really like the excitement I read from some of the cities around the south. Sometimes I wish I could have that feeling...

I show 10.6M of class A and total at just shy of 17 for 3Q of 2005.

Check it again. Maybe it is just waaaaaaay past my bedtime.

http://www.gvaadvantis.com/filedownload.asp?id=230

A2

No, you are right...........but using your source....since you brought it to my attention is better. Maybe the other source has a different way of calculating leasable space. It's best to use one source and since your site covers both cities, we should go with their numbers.

Per A2's source:

Uptown Charlotte- 20,246,679

Downtown Atlanta- 21,172,127

You are now correct though that they are pretty much neck and neck...

[A2]

I know we are getting slightly off topic......

From as long as I was old enough to care, the Perimeter Center area has had more office space than Downtown. I remember being in high school (I grew up in Dunwoody of Fulton), when the Concourse was being built (the King and Queen buildings @ GA400 and I-285) and the area was then known to have more office space than downtown Nashville.

I still have to go there to this day. Most of the time I meet my Brokers who I support. UBS has a large percentage of the "King" bldg occupied. I always knew it was large. I just failed to see how large it was until the numbers stuck out at me.

So should we now compare Perimeter to Uptown CLT. j/k !

Ok, now time for some shut eye. Good Night and farewell my fellow UP friends till morning, especially you LC. Have a good nights sleep.

A2

[A2]

Oh. Since I am going to bed I will leave you with my favorite pics of Downtown and Midtown combined. If we were to use the figures from the combined submarkets there would be NO debate or Contest. Good night.

A2

for comparrison my fav of CLT's Uptown with Airforce one and the skyline in the backdrop

[Lady Celeste]

A2 I am so glad you post more often now. Please stay around as much as you can. I hope you have a very good night.

Now let us both go to sleep.......

[Unifour]

I was a bit confused by this, and still am. If we are comparing the relative size of Charlotte's CBD with Atlanta's, how so? By looking at the two of them, and the number of buildings in them, Atlanta is clearly larger. It has a larger cluster of buildings. Not to disrespect Charlotte, but it is the smaller of the two. I don't see how Charlotte could come close to Atlanta when Atlanta clearly looks like it has quite a few more buildings in it. Does the lease statistics include ALL buildings? Or is that just the amount that is not already occupied and is available to lease?

Or is Atlanta bigger because it has more of the other types of buildings, such as hotels, apartment towers, etc?? How does one deal with the size difference?

[A2]

I was a bit confused by this, and still am. If we are comparing the relative size of Charlotte's CBD with Atlanta's, how so? By looking at the two of them, and the number of buildings in them, Atlanta is clearly larger. It has a larger cluster of buildings. Not to disrespect Charlotte, but it is the smaller of the two. I don't see how Charlotte could come close to Atlanta when Atlanta clearly looks like it has quite a few more buildings in it. Does the lease statistics include ALL buildings? Or is that just the amount that is not already occupied and is available to lease?

Or is Atlanta bigger because it has more of the other types of buildings, such as hotels, apartment towers, etc?? How does one deal with the size difference?

In terms of total office space ATL and CLT are neck and neck. You are correct about other towers though. ATL has a few others that are not office at all. Look at Peachtree Plaza (Westin) for exapmle. It is not included as office, but is a signature tower of the downtown ATL skyline.

Remember: Midtown is a seperate distrct so it's not included in the numbers.

A2