Broad Street Revitalization

[wrldcoupe4]

Nobody's thinking small. Everyone has high expectations of what Broad can and will become, it just takes time to make it happen. Rome wasn't built in a day. I doubt you'll find a single person who would say that they are completely satisfied with how Broad is currently.. mission accomplished! You'll get your chains eventually, but we also need to support our fantastic entrepreneurs and local merchants/restaurants. There's more to giving an area character than historic buildings... local talent within them is probably more important.

[Cadeho]

Probably so... but I would not even try to say Carytown should be the model for downtown. Carytown is basically a neighborhood strip that's grown popular. Other places in the city had and still have them, but the popularity isn't there, nor is the money to pump them up to that level. Richmond doesn't need two Carytowns. Downtown is to be on another level to represent the entire region. If it's all one type of place, it's not going to work. Some of you are in favor of what's currently there now because it caters to you. None of those places cater to me or most people for that matter. Broad (and the rest of downtown) should be a place for everyone and it should cater to a wide variety of people. For the time being, it's not going to be a powerhouse with what it has.

If a bunch of stores can sign on to a future development, local and national, why can't that happen downtown? Richmond needs to stop dragging its feet trying and justifying the slow status quo. Rome was not built in a day, nothing is, but if I can remember correctly, just about every major retail space in the area didn't build and just wait for people to file in. People want to go and come downtown, but as long as there are places just for the diners and gallery hoppers, people will continue going to the suburbs instead. Action is required now.

[Henry]

It takes two to tango Cadeho. It's not like the city and property owners are saying to Macy's, The Gap, Pottery Barn, etc, "Please don't come downtown. We don't want you. We would rather have small, local businesses on Broad Street." These are public companies who have sophisticated marketing teams determining where to locate stores. If they felt they could make their targeted returns in Richmond's downtown, they would already be there.

[wrldcoupe4]

It's a very good point that has been made here before, but Cadeho has been unwilling accept it as a somewhat frustrating fact about fixing up Broad and the retail industry in general.

[Cadeho]

The business community in general relies on a 1950s model where they seem to decide to locate stores based on info that in other aspects would have them sued. Stop making excuses for them and change the system.

[burt]

The business community in general relies on a 1950s model where they seem to decide to locate stores based on info that in other aspects would have them sued. Stop making excuses for them and change the system.

NO!!! YOU change the system if you think it can be done. I'd love to see what luck you'd have attracting what you think should be down there. We're not making exccuses. We're being realistic.

[gntrphoo]

I think we all agree with Cadeho in principle. If Short Pump Town Center had been built downtown in renovated buildings on and around East Broad, certainly the "build it and they will come" theory would have worked. Suburban shoppers would have without a doubt made the trip downtown to keep up with the latest trends and to have the fanciest name brand products. It would have returned Broad street to it's natural state as a regional shopping destination, and it certainly would have also sparked new residential development downtown.

However, considering the obstacles, it is easy to see why this didn't happen. First, the sheer cost (in time and money) to renovate the downtown buildings and provide proper parking infrastructure would have been astronomically higher than building from scratch in the suburbs. Second, no matter how convenient developers made it for affluent suburbanites to shop downtown, the downtown center would have never been as convenient as a center located in the backyards of target shoppers. This means not only that a downtown center would lose the sales attributed to casual "spur of the moment" sales (since trips would have to be planned) but also that the downtown center would immediately become uncompetitive if another developer built the same concept in the backyards of the wealthy suburbanites. In short, retailers would have had to value downtown's revitalization more than their bottom lines and then cross their fingers in hopes that all other developers felt the same way and would not build another center closer to the target market.

Today, the idea of a building a regional downtown shopping destination similar to short pump (or similar to any other existing retail) would be an immediate failure since the retail already exists in a location that is more convenient to shoppers. As suggested earlier on this thread, downtown's current niche is in unique independent retailers that do not exist elsewhere in the region and in art galleries/trendy restaurants that serve Richmond's creative class (who seem to live mostly in the city). That is not to say that there will never be department stores or other national chains downtown. But it does explain why demographics matter so much. For now, every sandwich shop or art gallery that locates downtown is a huge success because it makes living downtown more convenient and more enjoyable, thus attracting new residents. The new residents in turn will attract more business until eventually the cycle brings enough residents to justify national chains. But as mentioned earlier in the thread, this takes a very long time. I think we should all celebrate the fact that East Broad is moving in the right direction no matter how slowly. All we have to do is remember the "P" word!

[gntrphoo]

And by the way, "changing the system" would amount to the rejection of the current market oriented method of determining store locations in favor of a planned method. I think we all know what has happened to the world's planned economies . . .

[wrldcoupe4]

Well said.

[Cadeho]

Patience will do no good. It's not like the construction of Centennial which we know will have a definite start and end date. One thing you all have made clear is that I'll never shop downtown again. I remember the experience and the last time we shopped on Broad was when Thalhimer's closed. I might as well start shopping at Short Pump, using up all my gas to get to the opposite end of town. I think I will start boycotting downtown because it's obvious those business don't think about me or others like me just as much Short Pump doesn't. There will never be a place for me along Broad aside for taking pictures. Ninety-nine percent of my shopping is done in Henrico and Hanover anyway so no big loss by the city in the first place.

Burt, I would if I could. I don't have a business mind and I am miserable with money, obviously. But I know the status quo should never be something to settle upon. Just because a certain model has worked for years and years does not mean it can't be revised, updated, or overhauled. The model they use is not just based on class and if those businesses hired or chose who they served based on the same model they use for store locations, they woul be sued, under investigation, and protested. They can make money without following everyone else out to the fringes of society with the wealthy. Years ago I had wanted to go to school for business for the sole purpose of restarting downtown's retail center. I'm too stupid to actually do such a thing and even if I had, since I'm not using the model, I probably would have failed anyway. As it stands, Broad is useless to me and you're all telling me that's not going to change.

But if you like what's there now, I'm happy for you all. It's just not the place that can attract me... same as Carytown and Shockoe Bottom. All I want is a level shopping field....

[ric75]

Cadeho perhaps you've finally come to the realization you are a suburbanite at heart. Just think.... hundreds of stores and restaurants that you can visit in every city across the nation will be right at your backdoor! Who needs character and personality when you have national ad campaigns and assembly line food and merchandise ?

Honestly if you think we are being pessimistic because we don't want or believe that chain store retail is going to move downtown tomorrow then you really have a problem. As others have stated, when downtown can support these chains then I'm sure they will take it upon themselves to move here. For now I'll enjoy and support the Mom and Pop establishments that as far as I'm concerned are far more interesting than anything the burbs will ever offer. You're obsessed with comparing Richmond to other cities and you're obviously seduced by big advertising budgets and shiny new stores. If that's your cup o' tea downtown Richmond isn't the city for you.

[Cadeho]

I have no problem supporting Mom and Pop... but Mom and Pop have to have something that caters to me. I like electronics, music and stuff. Since Willies closed, where can I get music on Broad? I don't dine out. Why would I go to a restaurant then? And I am not fighting for chains exactly, but I'd like to see businesses open that offer much more than what's there... and I want them to be big time successes... even a department store. There needs to be a better variety of stores than what's there now.

[wrldcoupe4]

I think I will start boycotting downtown because it's obvious those business don't think about me or others like me just as much Short Pump doesn't.

But if you like what's there now, I'm happy for you all. It's just not the place that can attract me... same as Carytown and Shockoe Bottom. All I want is a level shopping field....

If you're trying to help Broad street come back, "boycotting" downtown is by far the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

And how could you be against the positive changes that are occurring there now? I don't know how many times we've had this same discussion or how many times I've said it, but we ALL want more from Broad Street.

[Cadeho]

You've said that Coupe , but not others. ric thinks I'm a suburbanite! HAHAHAHAHA! The whole reason I want things downtown is so I won't have to go to the suburbs. There are many more people who live in the city who are tired of having to leave the city in order to get things does or in order to buy things. To me, what's represented there is more leisurely stuff, which isn't bad, but when I really want something, where am I going? Henrico and Hanover. And as long as downtown remains empty of the type of retail that's everywhere else outside the city limits, even people who live in the city will trek to wherever they can get what they want or need.

I'm essentially already boycotting Broad not by choice. THEY OFFER NOTHING FOR ME. I HAVE NO REASON TO GO. But if all that's going to happen to Broad is what's there now, then it would continue to be an unintentional boycott, not just by me, but thousands. I'm not against positive change, but it's not enough. If an alcoholic drinks 7 days a week but then starts drinking 6 days out of the week, it may be a positive step, but it is not enough to get rid of the problem.

[burt]

gntrphoo, yours is among the most intelligent (and patient) analyses I've read on this subject. Congratulations.

[Icetera]

You've said that Coupe , but not others. ric thinks I'm a suburbanite! HAHAHAHAHA! The whole reason I want things downtown is so I won't have to go to the suburbs. There are many more people who live in the city who are tired of having to leave the city in order to get things does or in order to buy things. To me, what's represented there is more leisurely stuff, which isn't bad, but when I really want something, where am I going? Henrico and Hanover. And as long as downtown remains empty of the type of retail that's everywhere else outside the city limits, even people who live in the city will trek to wherever they can get what they want or need.

I'm essentially already boycotting Broad not by choice. THEY OFFER NOTHING FOR ME. I HAVE NO REASON TO GO. But if all that's going to happen to Broad is what's there now, then it would continue to be an unintentional boycott, not just by me, but thousands. I'm not against positive change, but it's not enough. If an alcoholic drinks 7 days a week but then starts drinking 6 days out of the week, it may be a positive step, but it is not enough to get rid of the problem.

I for one, am so tired of having to travel to suburbs to get general merchandise. Bring back the 5 and 10s!

[ric75]

I for one, am so tired of having to travel to suburbs to get general merchandise. Bring back the 5 and 10s!

Although I live in the City of Richmond, retail isn't an issue for me as it might be for others. I live between Stratford Hills and Westover Hills with the new Target/Ukrops development just a mile or so to my west. Go a little further and you have a Wally World. The only reason they built down here however is there was enough space, and enough people who make enough money to support the new stores. Broad St. just isn't there yet. Downtown for me at least is a recreational destination, not one of convenience. We are seeing the signs of businesses following the people near Tobacco Row and honestly you see it to an extent on Broad St. with Lowes (albeit an ugly, suburbanesque version) and some small specialized shops opening their doors. Some day when the numbers add up bigger, higher end stores will open but I never want to see the day Broad St. becomes a chain store alley.

[Cadeho]

No one wants Broad to be a chain store alley, but I did like seeing what DC had and why couldn't that work here? That's the thing, downtown should not be a recreational novelty. People who live to the east, directly south, and north don't have a convenient place to go to buy things and downtown was their place before years ago everyone said screw those people... we like these ones better. Where can they go? They're forced to the suburbs. And if you think I complain, you have no idea what I hear about things being so far away and how much of a shame downtown is that nothing is there. That is one reason why I still have an issue because it's only catering to a select group and not everyone. Downtown doesn't need to have 50,000 millionaires in walking distance to attract business. Businesses, other than those trying to be different, still go by an outdated model as I said before that's afraid of certain people and is exclusive instead of inclusive.

Another thing I've heard is that many businesses are afraid of those catching the bus... a n-word bus stop. They don't want to deal with those scary people. That really needs to change if that's the case. It's not like the stores down there are being robbed everyday... actually I can't think of one. It's just yet another image that people use to stay away, and it's false.

I feel very insulted that to many downtown is a recreational novelty, a place to show visitors, then retreat off to the farofflands. I'll be so happy when that is no longer the case.

[gntrphoo]

Another thing I've heard is that many businesses are afraid of those catching the bus... a n-word bus stop. They don't want to deal with those scary people. That really needs to change if that's the case. It's not like the stores down there are being robbed everyday... actually I can't think of one. It's just yet another image that people use to stay away, and it's false.

I hate to admit it, but I think Cam has a point: this misperception really does play a role in keeping businesses away from downtown. Richmond and Richmonders have made great progress towards breaking down racial stereotypes, but I have unfortunately noticed that there are still many people, suburbanites and city dwellers alike, that instinctively feel uncomfortable around these "bus stop folks." It is a real shame that this is part of the problem because as Cam says, it is a false impression that these people pose a safety threat. Unfortunately, this feeling is very real among many Richmonders, and until more people feel comfortable shopping downtown, businesses will be reluctant to locate there. For example, I have always thought that one of the stores that would be a no-brainer for downtown is Barnes and Noble. The closest store for downtowners is at Libby Place, which takes ages to get to from city center (not to mention Church Hill). However, aside from the parking/infrastructure costs, I think one the biggest reasons why Barnes and Noble has not located downtown is because they do not want to deal with the potential problem of loiterers that might scare away customers. This is really a difficult social issue to solve.

In the mean time, however, I think that Barnes and Noble (and many other national chains) are holding out for developments along the Boulevard before locating in the city. Once the Greyhound station is moved to Main Street Station, and plans are announced for the property surrounding the Diamond, I think we can expect to see some major retail development coming into that area. Let's just hope the development is smart, pedestrian friendly, and architecturally interesting!

[wrldcoupe4]

I don't have a problem with "bus stop folks" at all. I do have a problem with the littering that seems to be more common at bus stops than other places even though trash receptacles are usually within arm's reach.

[ric75]

In the mean time, however, I think that Barnes and Noble (and many other national chains) are holding out for developments along the Boulevard before locating in the city. Once the Greyhound station is moved to Main Street Station, and plans are announced for the property surrounding the Diamond, I think we can expect to see some major retail development coming into that area. Let's just hope the development is smart, pedestrian friendly, and architecturally interesting!

Actually this worries me a lot. Shockoe Bottom isn't established enough to handle the "bus-stop" folks moving to Main Street Station. If progress isn't made there before they move the Greyhound station then it will likely be the death of that area. It's already being ignored by the city for the most part and it shows. Sidewalks and street repairs haven't been made since Gaston hit almost 3 years ago. That's just inexcusable. There are many blank storefronts from businesses that left after Gaston and didn't return. Add on top of that people loitering around like they do on Broad Street and it spells disaster. I know it sounds bad/stereotypical or what have you but that's just the reality of human nature and our preconceptions. Bus stops aren't bringing in the type of people that make businesses want to develop near them otherwise we would have seen it happen on Boulevard. We need to make sure Shockoe Bottom is on it's feet again before they move this station. Sorry to bring this discussion here. Feel free to move it to a more appropriate area.

[JSI]

Another thing I've heard is that many businesses are afraid of those catching the bus... a n-word bus stop. They don't want to deal with those scary people. That really needs to change if that's the case. It's not like the stores down there are being robbed everyday... actually I can't think of one. It's just yet another image that people use to stay away, and it's false.

It's not false, there is a lot of crime happening along Broad St. that is not happening in other parts of the city. There's a reason why people feel scared walking down there. Click on the link below and type in 27 West Broad Street and then 5706 Grove Avenue (Libbie & Grove) and tell me if you see a difference.

http://www.richmondcrime.org

[Cadeho]

It's not false, there is a lot of crime happening along Broad St. that is not happening in other parts of the city. There's a reason why people feel scared walking down there. Click on the link below and type in 27 West Broad Street and then 5706 Grove Avenue (Libbie & Grove) and tell me if you see a difference.

http://www.richmondcrime.org

You win. I'm just going to move to another city where they have a real downtown that doesn't have all the problems we have. Call me when things are fixed... I won't be waiting by the phone, so leave a message.

[wrldcoupe4]

Actually this worries me a lot. Shockoe Bottom isn't established enough to handle the "bus-stop" folks moving to Main Street Station. If progress isn't made there before they move the Greyhound station then it will likely be the death of that area. It's already being ignored by the city for the most part and it shows. Sidewalks and street repairs haven't been made since Gaston hit almost 3 years ago. That's just inexcusable. There are many blank storefronts from businesses that left after Gaston and didn't return. Add on top of that people loitering around like they do on Broad Street and it spells disaster. I know it sounds bad/stereotypical or what have you but that's just the reality of human nature and our preconceptions. Bus stops aren't bringing in the type of people that make businesses want to develop near them otherwise we would have seen it happen on Boulevard. We need to make sure Shockoe Bottom is on it's feet again before they move this station. Sorry to bring this discussion here. Feel free to move it to a more appropriate area.

Honestly, I think it will be later than sooner that we see the Greyhound station move.

[wrldcoupe4]

Broad Street's Changing Face