How large should GR get?

[localtalent]

WTF are "racial reasons?"

It's like I need a friggin' code to decifer some of this stuff.

No you don't. Not really.

It means just what it says.

Many, many white West Michiganders don't want to live around people who don't look like them. It happens in other cities, too, but it's exaggerated here.

These folks think that just because they aren't a part of the Klan, they aren't racist. Kinda silly, eh?

It's sad and it needs fixing, but no amount of denying makes it go away.

[francishsu]

what I don't understand is the perception by many subburban whites that the city is dangerous and high crime, when actually the cities crime is LOW for its size and lower than many comparable cities in the midwest. Murders get the most attention but that seems to be almost all black on black drug related and usually on the SE side of town within a radius of about a mile. SO the perception needs to change

Remember that many of the prospective residents will already have decided to move to the GR region. So they are no longer comparing GR with cities across the United States. Instead, they are comparing against the suburbs and smaller towns nearby. Crime statistics are readily available at a city level, but much harder to find for a particular part of a city. When comparing these statistics, the suburbs will almost always win. But the savvy person will realize that there are always going to be safe neighborhoods in the city, so the next thing on the list might be to look at the schools as well. If the schools don't have a good reputation, then that's another obstacle in attracting families.

[MJLO]

Hmmm, I want to say GR proper peaked at about 210,000 during a mid-cycle estimate, like in '76. It was right around the time or shortly thereafter when GR passed Flint as the #2 city.

GR has been Michigan's #2 city Decades before the 70's, However until the 70's Flint was a boomtown always right there nipping at GR's heels. You have to go back to around the turn of the 20th century maybe a little before to find a time when GR wasn't Michigan's #2, and then believe it or not, Michigans #2 city was Saginaw. I wish annexation was a viable option for the city, I think it could do some good. As for what is to big, How can you say for sure, For me it can't get big enough.

[evac311]

No you don't. Not really.

It means just what it says.

Many, many white West Michiganders don't want to live around people who don't look like them. It happens in other cities, too, but it's exaggerated here.

Do you mean some, many, or most? I don't have the data sheet in front of me.

These folks think that just because they aren't a part of the Klan, they aren't racist. Kinda silly, eh?

What folks are those? That must be BS because neither I, nor anybody else has mentioned degrees of racism.

But this fits nicley because you can't measure degree of racisim therefore you cannot be disproven with this statment.

It's sad and it needs fixing, but no amount of denying makes it go away.

Whoa man. You need to understand that I am not "in denial" just because I have a different opinion than yours.

What needs fixing are all the people who live with a guilt that causes them to blame everyone else for their own suffering.

[localtalent]

What folks are those? That must be BS because neither I, nor anybody else has mentioned degrees of racism.

Whoa man. You need to understand that I am not "in denial" just because I have a different opinion than yours.

What needs fixing are all the people who live with a guilt that causes them to blame everyone else for their own suffering.

Which came first: chicken or egg?

Did the GRPS system get bad because all the high income folks left, or did the the high income folks leave because the GRPS system got bad?

Race is an issue in that question. It may be race as equated to socio-economic status, but it's race nonetheless. Anyone who says otherwise is simply blind to the facts at hand.

After complaining about the decoding necessary when others' are talking about race issues, you sent me scurrying for my codebook with your last sentence about people living with guilt....I'd honestly appreciate a translation (all brain cells may not currently be firing due to the late hour).

[evac311]

Which came first: chicken or egg?

Did the GRPS system get bad because all the high income folks left, or did the the high income folks leave because the GRPS system got bad?

Race is an issue in that question. It may be race as equated to socio-economic status, but it's race nonetheless. Anyone who says otherwise is simply blind to the facts at hand.

After complaining about the decoding necessary when others' are talking about race issues, you sent me scurrying for my codebook with your last sentence about people living with guilt....I'd honestly appreciate a translation (all brain cells may not currently be firing due to the late hour).

Ask yourself this question:Why does it seem that whites cry the loudest when it comes to white on black

racism? Perhaps a tinge of guilt is ringing through.

I live with no guilt, therefor, I have no prejudice.

[MJLO]

wait how did we go from how big is to big, to the race issues. I haven't seen the race issue grappled over on here since like last June, and you should see what happened to that guy

[localtalent]

Ask yourself this question:Why does it seem that whites cry the loudest when it comes to white on black

racism? Perhaps a tinge of guilt is ringing through.

I live with no guilt, therefor, I have no prejudice.

Guilt = culpability. If one lives with guilt, it means one is cognizant of their responsibility for an injustice.

I sense that what you mean to say is that this "guilt" is unfounded. Either that, or you're claiming to live on some kind of amoral mountain-top.

I'm no PC apologist.....but race issues are real, and they don't go away until you start to build bridges between communities that wouldn't normally relate.

My opinion is that it's much more a rich-poor issue than a black-white issue and we need more socio-economic diversity in the urban neighborhoods.

But that's just my opinion. Some will claim I'm the face of white gentrification.

I hope you don't feel like I'm attacking you, since that's not my intent. I think this is one of the few deep discussions relevant to the theme of this site. I wish more people were weighing in, though perhaps the late hour is preventing that.

wait how did we go from how big is to big, to the race issues. I haven't seen the race issue grappled over on here since like last June, and you should see what happened to that guy

We go from pie-in-the-sky population projections to "how do we get there from here", which involves a discussion of how we fix that which is broken in society.

Pretty straight-forward to me.

[evac311]

Thanks, Local.

Grand Rapids Christian Schools lose students

[GRNetAdmin]

I can't imagine what the problem is with GRPS, when you look at the stats for the city you would expect the schools to be decent, maybe not as "nice" as the burbs, but acceptable. But when you look at the stats for GRPS they don't match up. Especially the percentage of minorites in the schools (very high, I once heard 80% on a GR news channel) when the percentage of minorities in the city is ~35%. It is typical for a city to have a higher percentage of minorities in the schools than in the city, but in GR the difference seems a little extreme. Any ideas as to why this is?

The GRPS I went to was 89% black (I don't remember what the remaining %'s were for hispanic , white, etc) and 93% were on free/reduced school lunch program (stats were taken from the school's website). Terrible school.

[GR8scott]

The GRPS I went to was 89% black (I don't remember what the remaining %'s were for hispanic , white, etc) and 93% were on free/reduced school lunch program (stats were taken from the school's website). Terrible school.

OK there are only a few elementary schools that are that segregated, all the secondary schools are very diverse compared to Flint, Saginaw, and most notably Detroit, which all have much larger high schools with greater than 95% black students.

GR high schools

The point is, GRPS would be key to support growth but is struggling, but why? yes it has budget issues, but overall it is very diverse and GR has low crime, so why is there this perception of the terrible inner city and the schools. Its like many of the subburbanites are unaware of how nice it is here compared to other area cities. Besides for the very inner subburban areas, metro GR is very much caucasion and maybe a little ignorant? This would also be key to change in order for growth

[snoogit]

I meant, GR has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. I don't know how crime could even be perceived to be bad there - especially when you have Detroit in the state

You answered your own question... You would be amazed at the amount of people I know who think because Detroit is so bad, every other inner-city in Michigan has to be just as bad.

[GRDadof3]

WTF are "racial reasons?"

It's like I need a friggin' code to decifer some of this stuff.

Not to backtrack to this post, but it's easy and I'm quite confused by your obfuscation. It means this: "Family A does not want to live in a certain section of Grand Rapids, Kentwood or Wyoming because there are too many black/hispanic people". I love to see the look on people's faces when they ask me the racial makeup of an area, and I tell them "If I answer that question, I would be breaking Federal Fair Housing laws."

All I'm relaying evac is my OWN experiences with racism amongst my white peers. It may be because I work with and am surrounded by white middle class suburbanites (who by no means are ALL or even majority racists). But there are more racists in the world than I like to see, and it's saddening.

It is an issue that will stagnate growth in the area if you ask my opinion.

[GRGyp]

I'm no PC apologist.....but race issues are real, and they don't go away until you start to build bridges between communities that wouldn't normally relate.

My opinion is that it's much more a rich-poor issue than a black-white issue and we need more socio-economic diversity in the urban neighborhoods.

I spent a year at CMU taking classes, and during that time I had the honor of being partnered in a project with a young black lady from South Africa. She lived under apartheid and one day (Martin Luther King day) we were working on a project together on the top floor of the library. There was rally going on below us in honor of the day, and it was a very vocal and very tense atmosphere we were looking down upon.

I remember that day vividly because she turned to me, looked me straight in the eye and with a very critical tone said, "You know the problem with America is it's too preoccupied with race."

Her point was, we as Americans all wear glasses that seem to bring out everyones color. This includes everyone, whites and blacks alike. Until we stop thinking in terms of "black-white issues" and put on the glasses that take out all the color, we will continue to have "black-white issues".

It's easy to point the finger and say this is a white problem, but that type of thinking just reinforces the "black-white issue" that separates the two sides. This is everyone's problem and everyone needs a change in their attitudes to fix it.

[Sunlover38]

I spent a year at CMU taking classes, and during that time I had the honor of being partnered in a project with a young black lady from South Africa. She lived under apartheid and one day (Martin Luther King day) we were working on a project together on the top floor of the library. There was rally going on below us in honor of the day, and it was a very vocal and very tense atmosphere we were looking down upon.

I remember that day vividly because she turned to me, looked me straight in the eye and with a very critical tone said, "You know the problem with America is it's too preoccupied with race."

Her point was, we as Americans all wear glasses that seem to bring out everyones color. This includes everyone, whites and blacks alike. Until we stop thinking in terms of "black-white issues" and put on the glasses that take out all the color, we will continue to have "black-white issues".

It's easy to point the finger and say this is a white problem, but that type of thinking just reinforces the "black-white issue" that separates the two sides. This is everyone's problem and everyone needs a change in their attitudes to fix it.

While this may be true, that is the pot calling the kettle black (no pun intended) for a South African to say Americans are too pre-occupied with race. The issue is we should be more pre-occuppied with race and racial issues . . .do you even know or care what is going on in South Africa? Ever heard of Darfur? We Americans may be labeled and have a tendancy to racism, but we aren't slaughterting millions of people simply because of their race . . . . . do you realize that almost 1 million people were murdered in Rwanada in 1994 b/c of racial issues?? That is more than the Holocaust!!! And it is still going on today in Darfur . . . . it is sickening . . . while we complain about M6 or urban sprawl people are being slaughtered . . .America is not so bad after all, huh??

[GRGyp]

While this may be true, that is the pot calling the kettle black (no pun intended) for a South African to say Americans are too pre-occupied with race.

Maybe if it was a white South African that said it, but this was a black South African that said it.

She was the part of the population that had one doctor for every 40,000 people as apposed to 1 for every 400. She was the one that saw 40% infant mortality rate among babies her color compared to 2% for babies of another color. She experienced an education system that spent $45 dollars on her, while spending $696 on others based on skin pigmentation.

If she lived through all that, I see her comments more as an epiffany than the pot calling the kettle black.

You will never solve the "black-white" issue if you make everything a "black-white" issue. If are constantly forcing people to choose sides, they will choose a side and then gravitate to the extreme to defend their stance.

What does that solve?

[AlexPKeaton]

do you realize that almost 1 million people were murdered in Rwanada in 1994 b/c of racial issues?? That is more than the Holocaust!!! And it is still going on today in Darfur . . . . it is sickening . . .

Far more were killed in the holocost, but you're right, it is sickening.

Everyone's a little bit racist though. It's part of being human. We make judgments based on appearance all the time. I'm not a racist in the sense that I don't believe my race (white) to be particularly better than any other race, but I do notice that my perceptions of other people are not always accurate and are sometimes based on superficial things.

I know a person who is moving here from Chicago and he wasn't even considering living in GR because of the schools. But he found a house he loved within the city limits and made an offer on it. He's just going to home-school his children rather than send them to the local elementary school. And I'm pretty sure it was based mostly on the racial makeup of the school and not it's actual performance and teachers.

I was raised in a 99% white city (Petoskey) so going to school at GVSU was a real eye-opener. I would prefer my kids (if I ever have any) to go to a non-white school so they can get used to people that look different at an early age. I know I am a little bit racist but I would hope my children won't be.

-nb

[gvsusean]

SO WHEN IS GR TOO BIG???

I think even a jump to 50,000 would have dramatic effects in the DT area. While some wuold be appreciated if we continue to grow, some of the great "little" buildings DT would have to go to make way for larger ones exp. Monroe

[Picture Michigan]

Racism is such a stupid word in this context, because we're all HUMANS, therefore of the same race.

Perhaps prejudice. Prejudging. We ALL do it to some extent. Not necessarily based on the color of one's skin, but certainly on ethnicity or culture and even religion (so prominent in this forum).

How about the dilapidated condition of one's front yard? "Heh, plain white trash." Or the beat-up pickup truck with the number 8 all over the back window and NRA bumper stickers? "heh, rednecks." See, it goes both ways.

Stereo types. Chris Rock gets away with the "black" jokes, and Jeff Foxworthy gets away with the "redneck" jokes. Go figure.

This topic (of "racism") will never be resolved one paragraph at a time in a forum.

So..., back to the original topic:

GR has been Michigan's #2 city Decades before the 70's, However until the 70's Flint was a boomtown always right there nipping at GR's heels. You have to go back to around the turn of the 20th century maybe a little before to find a time when GR wasn't Michigan's #2, and then believe it or not, Michigans #2 city was Saginaw. I wish annexation was a viable option for the city, I think it could do some good. As for what is to big, How can you say for sure, For me it can't get big enough.

I stand corrected regarding Flint vs. GR for #2. I could not find conclusive data backing up my point. However, Flint was indeed at one point the #2 city.

The only data I could find was at census.gov, and was in 20 year increments for the top 75 cities (not metros):

Link to Excel spreadsheet: www.census.gov/statab/hist/02HS0007.xls

---------GR--------Flint

1900----87k-------***

1920----137k------***

1940----164k------151k

1960----177k------196k

1980----181k------***

2000----***--------***

*** = Off the top 75 roadmap

Note that every other decade was skipped.

I cannot seem to find the mid-cycle estimate that put GR over 200,000, but I do recall seeing it way back when it occurred.

[Rizzo]

On the population note: I would think that if Grand Rapids wanted to increase it's population it should diversifiy its housing stock as much as possible while offering a base for homes to be owned. Grand Rapids is in a wonderful position to offer a spectrum of psuedo-suburban living and very dense urban gritty living while keeping everyone happy with low crime, great parks, and plenty activities to do.

[GRGyp]

On the population note, I'd say a population of 300,000 to 350,000 in GR proper would get us a strong and vibrant city.

Let's put it at 314,159 that would put the "pi" in Grand Rapids (x100,000).

I like pie!

[grrwymg]

On the population note, I'd say a population of 300,000 to 350,000 in GR proper would get us a strong and vibrant city.

Let's put it at 314,159 that would put the "pi" in Grand Rapids (x100,000).

I like pie!

Did you push up your black, plastic-framed glasses w/ tape holding the nose piece together before posting that?

Muahahaha.

[GRDadof3]

On the population note, I'd say a population of 300,000 to 350,000 in GR proper would get us a strong and vibrant city.

Let's put it at 314,159 that would put the "pi" in Grand Rapids (x100,000).

I like pie!

Thank you for bringing some levity to this topic GRGyp. I was even growing tired of my own argument.

I found these numbers Picture Michigan:

Grand Rapids City Population

1986 - 186,530

1990 - 189,126

2000 - 197,800

2001 - 197,169

2002 - 196,165

2003 - 195,601

2004 - 195,115

[MJLO]

if GR had about 350,000 people, that would put it on par with places like Miami for density. Miami covers a very small piece of land. That could be cool. Maybe Will Smith would right a song about GR. hehehehehe

[GRGyp]

Did you push up your black, plastic-framed glasses w/ tape holding the nose piece together before posting that?

Muahahaha.

Blessed with 20/20 vision and a woman with good fashion sense. I'm a stealth geek.