How large should GR get?

[localtalent]

Speaking of schools and population, I know serval people in GR that use suburban addresses to get their kids in Kentwood schools, especially East Kentwood HS. The family stays in GR, becuase they are planted in the city, but they choose to send their kids away one city over. Amazing how a line drawn in the sand can make all the difference. Name and preception, what a beotch.

Perception people, perception... I'm satisfied with my conclusion of experiencing urban and suburban schools that there is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE.

Anyone going out of their way to send their children to East Kentwood HS is a bit loopy.

I'm not sure how it's any better than GRPS.

[GRGyp]

I'm trying to find the numbers, and am not having much success, but I'm changing that number from 210,000 to 201,000. I found where the official 1970 number was 197,649.

I think GR could still flux up a bit, but the looming cloud is the GRPS. I was chatting with a Dad (this one is a Dad of only two) the other day; he's leaving the City of Wyoming for Byron Center because of the schools.

The school system is a problem that really needs to be addressed by the state. The changes they made to how they divide up the money per student when they dropped millages is killing school systems that are land locked without future avenues of growth. Under the current plan, even modest population growth equates to a windfall of money for the school system to build with. Whereas with a declining or stagnant population, the school system gets just enough to keep everything running.

Grand Rapids and Wyoming public schools will continue this slow death march they are on under current system, simply because there are no quick avenues for population growth in their districts. Meanwhile, districts like Forest Hills, Rockford, Grandville, and Byron Center; whose district boundries are very large and are experiencing growth will continue to roll in state money to build new state of the art schools. The vicious cycle will then continue as people use school of choice to flee out of older stagnant/poor districts and into growing/rich districts. Without an influx of funding those old schools in GR and Wyoming simply cannot compete with new state of the art schools in those growing suburbs.

In order to have good systems, you need invest in them. Unfortunately there is no investment under the current state plan for schools that are not growing.

[twoshort]

Anyone going out of their way to send their children to East Kentwood HS is a bit loopy.

[GR8scott]

As for GR city proper, without annexation it will NOT grow much more. It is already a fairly small and dense and developed city for its size, BUT the infrastructure is not setup as dense as other cities like in SE michigan and other larger urban areas. It does not have that large urban feel. Simply look at google earth and you will see what I am talking about, the houses are larger and have yards, the streets are farther apart, there are few rowhouses, few apartment towers, more green space, whach can be good things. Detroits population is cut in half and it has square miles of "war torn" abandod block and still has a considerably higher density than GR. Yes there are old cities like San Fran, NY, Miami, jersey city ect. with large populations and small areas but that will NEVER be GR. There are still a few undeveloped areas and density can be built up but not to doubling the population to even 400k with out any annexation, its just not possible.

IMO I would like to see annexation of older inner urban areas, but without that a stable 250k would be nice.

[Phizzy]

With Detroit's present density, it would reach 280,000. With Chicago's - 560,000 and with New York's - 1,200,000. The last two are unlikely, but I could see it reaching 250,000.

[GR8scott]

With Detroit's present density, it would reach 280,000. With Chicago's - 560,000 and with New York's - 1,200,000. The last two are unlikely, but I could see it reaching 250,000.

yeah but with Detroit, it has whole miles of blocks with only a couple occupied houses on them and then there are several intacted neighborhoods with a significantly higher density that evens it out, those neighborhoods are a lot more dense than GR can be because of the infrastructure, the houses are smaller, they have practically no yard, they are closer together and closer to the street so there are a lot more per block and the blocks are smaller which makes it a lot more dense. you cant go through here and redo the streets to make them closer and devide up and make smaller properties and build smaller houses and it would not make sense to build that style housing in the few undeveloped areas of the city because there is little demand here.

GR has a healthy density right now at almost 4500 ppl/sq mi and there are still undeveloped areas mainly in NE GR and also areas that can be redeveloped to add density. I think it would add to the urban feel to have a few more mid-rise apartments some for low-mid income maybe somewhere along division, leonard, michigan or eastown, creston, west side, or the hispanic SW neighborhoods. I would actually like to see a 10 story building outside of downtown.

250,000 is possible with some work and I think that would be ideal

[Rizzo]

First there has to be income to move here... Jobs. I'm not talking about jobs in the suburbs, but jobs here in The City of Grand Rapids. I would think that is the one true motivator of anyone moving into the City. IF there isn't room for massive amounts of business to employ massive amounts of people you can forget population increases, and forget someone working in the suburbs and living in the City. (unless of course they really believein Grand Rapids and want to live in the city)

Like with any city there will have to be midrise apts before anything. I would suspect there could also be a rebuild of delapidated/under utilised areas. I think the money is on the edge of the city where Grand Rapids meets the suburb. A possible mover has the feel of suburban life yet has access to the great amenities GR can offer.

What would be cool is offering an incentive to live in GR.. My incetive alone would be rissing property values.

I could be wrong on all of this. My 2 cents

[evac311]

If public schools have as much impact on urban growth as people say they do, I think it would be a good idea to take another look at school vouchers or partial tax reimburments for parents that otherwise might not have the money to afford to send their child to a non-public school. Some people who value religiously-based or specialized education might not move back into the city because they can't afford it.

[francishsu]

For families w/kids deciding where to live, perceived crime and quality of schools are probably at the top of the list.

[egrguy]

did anyone see devos's quote on the kalamazoo promise -- i dont have the exact quote, but summed up it was "anything free isn't worth anything"

doesnt look like one of our city's richest members will follow that prescription towards increasing the strength of our city's schools.

overall though, I think the suburbs will continue to sprawl as people leave wyoming for byron center, or people leaving gr to jenison/forest hills etc and so on until the core city can strengthen the city's schools.

[hood]

I can't imagine what the problem is with GRPS, when you look at the stats for the city you would expect the schools to be decent, maybe not as "nice" as the burbs, but acceptable. But when you look at the stats for GRPS they don't match up. Especially the percentage of minorites in the schools (very high, I once heard 80% on a GR news channel) when the percentage of minorities in the city is ~35%. It is typical for a city to have a higher percentage of minorities in the schools than in the city, but in GR the difference seems a little extreme. Any ideas as to why this is?

[Rizzo]

White flight?

[GRDadof3]

I can't imagine what the problem is with GRPS, when you look at the stats for the city you would expect the schools to be decent, maybe not as "nice" as the burbs, but acceptable. But when you look at the stats for GRPS they don't match up. Especially the percentage of minorites in the schools (very high, I once heard 80% on a GR news channel) when the percentage of minorities in the city is ~35%. It is typical for a city to have a higher percentage of minorities in the schools than in the city, but in GR the difference seems a little extreme. Any ideas as to why this is?

It may be due to the proliferation of alternative schools, like private Christian schools and charter schools. That's probably where most white families put their kids, which might account for the higher percentage of minorities in GRPS than in the population of GR.

People use phrases like "gang activity" to mean "a lot of minority kids" (all the white people are shifting uncomfortably in their seats right now).

[evac311]

It may be due to the proliferation of alternative schools, like private Christian schools and charter schools. That's probably where most white families put their kids, which might account for the higher percentage of minorities in GRPS than in the population of GR.

People use phrases like "gang activity" to mean "a lot of minority kids" (all the white people are shifting uncomfortably in their seats right now).

Yeah, I agree. All white people are racists. But the question remains: what can we do to fix the problem?

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Yeah, I agree. All white people are racists.

lol.

I can't really see anyone avoiding GR because of crime - even perceived.

[GRDadof3]

Yeah, I agree. All white people are racists. But the question remains: what can we do to fix the problem?

I didn't mean to say that all white people are racists, but many people make decisions for where they live or send their kids to school based on racial reasons.

[TheCityGuy]

lol.

I can't really see anyone avoiding GR because of crime - even perceived.

You don't understand why people would avoid someplace because of the perception of crime, true or otherwise?

Do you like crime? Do you have a family? Children?

I only ask to be the devil's advocate. I live in the city with my family, including children. I chose to move into the city, throwing my hands up at the perceptions. However, to say that you don't understand why people would avoid crime is juvenile.

But perhaps you were being sarcastic. If so, I apologize.

I didn't mean to say that all white people are racists, but many people make decisions for where they live or send their kids to school based on racial reasons.

You're right. And until people own up to it, nothing can be accomplished to the contrary. I'm personally convinced that race is the driving factor of people moving to the burbs. But that's another thread altogether.

Yeah, I agree. All white people are racists. But the question remains: what can we do to fix the problem?

You're right, not all white people are racist. But when half of your neighbors move to the suburbs and start asking you why in the hell you're still living in the city, it starts to affect the way people think.

Peer pressure doesn't just affect kids.

[evac311]

I can't imagine what the problem is with GRPS, when you look at the stats for the city you would expect the schools to be decent, maybe not as "nice" as the burbs, but acceptable. But when you look at the stats for GRPS they don't match up. Especially the percentage of minorites in the schools (very high, I once heard 80% on a GR news channel) when the percentage of minorities in the city is ~35%. It is typical for a city to have a higher percentage of minorities in the schools than in the city, but in GR the difference seems a little extreme. Any ideas as to why this is?

Minorities are racists. They can't stand the white people in the private schools, so they send their kids to the public schools.

[GRDadof3]

Minorities are racists. They can't stand the white people in the private schools, so they send their kids to the public schools.

I'm glad you find this discussion amusing evac. Care to expound on that one?

[evac311]

It may be due to the proliferation of alternative schools, like private Christian schools and charter schools. That's probably where most white families put their kids, which might account for the higher percentage of minorities in GRPS than in the population of GR.

People use phrases like "gang activity" to mean "a lot of minority kids" (all the white people are shifting uncomfortably in their seats right now).

You first.

[GRDadof3]

You first.

"People use phrases like "gang activity" to mean "a lot of minority kids" (all the white people are shifting uncomfortably in their seats right now)."

I think that's pretty straightforward. I work in real estate, and I hear it all the time. I haven't heard the one: inner-city families, many in the low income census tracts, not wanting to go to private schools because of all the white people there. That one is a new one. How do you explain all the minority families opting for school-of-choice to FH, EGR, etc., where the student population is almost exclusively white? If your theory is correct, are these people putting their children's lives in danger?

[GR8scott]

what I don't understand is the perception by many subburban whites that the city is dangerous and high crime, when actually the cities crime is LOW for its size and lower than many comparable cities in the midwest. Murders get the most attention but that seems to be almost all black on black drug related and usually on the SE side of town within a radius of about a mile. SO the perception needs to change

[evac311]

"People use phrases like "gang activity" to mean "a lot of minority kids" (all the white people are shifting uncomfortably in their seats right now)."

I think that's pretty straightforward. I work in real estate, and I hear it all the time. I haven't heard the one: inner-city families, many in the low income census tracts, not wanting to go to private schools because of all the white people there. That one is a new one. How do you explain all the minority families opting for school-of-choice to FH, EGR, etc., where the student population is almost exclusively white? If your theory is correct, are these people putting their children's lives in danger?

No. They are saving their children from the white racists.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

You don't understand why people would avoid someplace because of the perception of crime, true or otherwise?

Do you like crime? Do you have a family? Children?

I only ask to be the devil's advocate. I live in the city with my family, including children. I chose to move into the city, throwing my hands up at the perceptions. However, to say that you don't understand why people would avoid crime is juvenile.

But perhaps you were being sarcastic. If so, I apologize.

You're right. And until people own up to it, nothing can be accomplished to the contrary. I'm personally convinced that race is the driving factor of people moving to the burbs. But that's another thread altogether.

You're right, not all white people are racist. But when half of your neighbors move to the suburbs and start asking you why in the hell you're still living in the city, it starts to affect the way people think.

Peer pressure doesn't just affect kids.

I meant, GR has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. I don't know how crime could even be perceived to be bad there - especially when you have Detroit in the state, a city that has 3-4 times as many murders per hundred thousand people than GR has total murders. Any crime is bad crime though...

Honestly, I was just trying to add some content to my post so it was not just "lol."

[evac311]

I didn't mean to say that all white people are racists, but many people make decisions for where they live or send their kids to school based on racial reasons.

WTF are "racial reasons?"

It's like I need a friggin' code to decifer some of this stuff.