How large should GR get?

[MJLO]

good fashion sense is in the eye of the beholder, I happen to be a fan of shoulder pads, and skirts that go down to the ankles, put that in a minivan from the late80's - early 90's, and i've found my future wife! Jehovahs Witness chicks turn me on.

[Rizzo]

^Speaking of Johovahs' Girls, a bunch of them went through Drive Thru wanting free meals... They passed out some material to the girls, sadly we all laughed - "Welcome to the real world." I was really suprised because I thought Johovahs didn't drive, especially old beat up early 90s minivans.

ooops

[gvsusean]

Thank you for bringing some levity to this topic GRGyp. I was even growing tired of my own argument.

I found these numbers Picture Michigan:

Grand Rapids City Population

1986 - 186,530

1990 - 189,126

2000 - 197,800

2001 - 197,169

2002 - 196,165

2003 - 195,601

2004 - 195,115

with all the development in dt since the arena, its hard to believe that population has continued to fall since climaxed in 2000

[GR8scott]

actually I think it climaxed in the 70's

[MJLO]

those numbers are just estimates, the true resident population may be higher, since those are taken of income tax returns.

[grrwymg]

with all the development in dt since the arena, its hard to believe that population has continued to fall since climaxed in 2000

I'd like to see population data on "downtown" vs "neighborhoods" and outlying areas.

As good as it is to see all the developments DT, alot of the neighborhoods need some work. I'm guessing that is where your seeing the exedous of population OUT of GR - the 'hoods, not DT.

[Rizzo]

I'd like to see population data on "downtown" vs "neighborhoods" and outlying areas.

As good as it is to see all the developments DT, alot of the neighborhoods need some work. I'm guessing that is where your seeing the exedous of population OUT of GR - the 'hoods, not DT.

Maybe this could help?

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFP...ng=en&pctxt=fph

http://www.melissadata.com/lookups/MapZip.asp?zip=49503

[Picture Michigan]

Thank you for bringing some levity to this topic GRGyp. I was even growing tired of my own argument.

I found these numbers Picture Michigan:

Grand Rapids City Population

1986 - 186,530

1990 - 189,126

2000 - 197,800

2001 - 197,169

2002 - 196,165

2003 - 195,601

2004 - 195,115

with all the development in dt since the arena, its hard to believe that population has continued to fall since climaxed in 2000

It's interesting to see after the great exodus during the 70s & 80s the numbers when back up for a while, then inched back down. I think the mere inching downward is because of the DT residential development.

I was looking for the older numbers, like from the 50s, 60s and 70s. I'm sure they're out there, but I'm not spending any more time on it!

But 350,000 for GR proper? Are we going to raze current neighborhoods and put in higher density housing?

I think the more interesting question on this point, is the four-county metro area. In another 50 years, 2M+ is not unrealistic. I don't know the official projections.

The day a 30+ story highrise moves within a mile of the lakeshore, you know something's happening. Consider Lake Shore Drive in Chicago. I am personally surprised something like this has not been attempted. None of the lakeshore communities really have the infrastructure to handle new urban developement, so something like a true highrise would be radically out of place. But still...?

[GRDadof3]

The day a 30+ story highrise moves within a mile of the lakeshore, you know something's happening. Consider Lake Shore Drive in Chicago. I am personally surprised something like this has not been attempted. None of the lakeshore communities really have the infrastructure to handle new urban developement, so something like a true highrise would be radically out of place. But still...?

If they ever truly clean up Muskegon Lake and the Sappi Paper Mills goes, look out. It's the largest inland lake connected to Lake Michigan, with a lot of industrial land that can be redeveloped on the South shore. It might end up like certain coastal areas of Florida, with a bunch of mid to high-rise condominiums.

[MJLO]

That would be GREAT for Muskegon! I would be all like "hell yeah".

[GR8scott]

^ its got the potential

[Phizzy]

I was looking for the older numbers, like from the 50s, 60s and 70s. I'm sure they're out there, but I'm not spending any more time on it!

Cities that have had a population of at least 100,000 after at least one census:

                  1900       1910       1920      1930       1940       1950       1960       1970       1980       1990       2000

Detroit 285,704 465,766 993,078 1,568,662 1,623,452 1,849,568* 1,670,144 1,514,063 1,203,339 1,027,974 951,270

Grand Rapids 87,565 112,571 137,634 168,592 164,292 176,515 177,313 197,649 181,843 189,126 197,800*

Flint 13,103 38,550 91,599 156,492 151,543 163,143 196,940* 193,317 159,611 140,761 124,943

Warren - - - - - - 89,246 179,260* 161,134 144,864 138,247

Sterling Heights - - - - - - - 61,365 108,999 117,810 124,471*

Lansing 16,485 31,229 57,327 78,397 78,753 92,129 107,807 131,403* 130,414 127,321 119,378

Ann Arbor 14,509 14,817 19,516 26,944 29,815 48,251 67,340 100,035 107,969 109,952 114,123*

Livonia - - - - - 17,534 66,702 110,109* 104,814 100,850 100,545

Dearborn 844 911 2,470 50,358 63,584 94,994 112,007* 104,199 90,660 89,286 97,775

Saginaw ? ? ? ? ? ? 98,265* 91,849 77,508 69,512 61,792

* Maximum census population

Since 1900, it appears that Grand Rapids has always been the 2nd largest city, aside from 1960.

Note that in 2000 Grand Rapids had its highest population at an official census.

Further back for Grand Rapids:

               1850    1860    1870    1880    1890    1900    1910    1920    1930    1940    1950    1960    1970    1980    1990    2000

Grand Rapids 2,686 8,085 16,057 32,016 60,278 87,565 112,571 137,634 168,592 164,292 176,515 177,313 197,649 181,843 189,126 197,800

[GRGyp]

But 350,000 for GR proper? Are we going to raze current neighborhoods and put in higher density housing?

If highrises continue to be built in downtown GR proper, there will be a natural growth of the downtown area into the low density residential and old abandoned industrial properties surrounding it. So why not convert low density residential to high density residential? Fill in the mystery project land with higher density housing. Level the areas around and including the old AutoDie plant and build similarly to the Icon on Bond project (with more appealing ground level architecture of course ). If the city is vibrant enough to bring business in to give jobs to 350,000 people there still plenty of blighted and under used areas of land in GR proper to build high density housing on.

[MJLO]

Cities that have had a population of at least 100,000 after at least one census...

                  1900       1910       1920      1930       1940       1950       1960       1970       1980       1990       2000

Detroit 285,704 465,766 993,078 1,568,662 1,623,452 1,849,568* 1,670,144 1,514,063 1,203,339 1,027,974 951,270

Grand Rapids 87,565 112,571 137,634 168,592 164,292 176,515 177,313 197,649 181,843 189,126 197,800*

Flint 13,103 38,550 91,599 156,492 151,543 163,143 196,940* 193,317 159,611 140,761 124,943

Warren - - - - - - 89,246 179,260* 161,134 144,864 138,247

Sterling Heights - - - - - - - 61,365 108,999 117,810 124,471*

Lansing 16,485 31,229 57,327 78,397 78,753 92,129 107,807 131,403* 130,414 127,321 119,378

Ann Arbor 14,509 14,817 19,516 26,944 29,815 48,251 67,340 100,035 107,969 109,952 114,123*

Livonia - - - - - 17,534 66,702 110,109* 104,814 100,850 100,545

Dearborn 844 911 2,470 50,358 63,584 94,994 112,007* 104,199 90,660 89,286 97,775

* Maximum census population

Since 1900, it appears that Grand Rapids has always been the 2nd largest city, aside from 1960.

Note that in 2000 Grand Rapids had its highest population at an official census.

Phizz I'm suprised you didn't add saginaw in that mix, It's an older more established city than most of us realize. It's just gone downhill since the 70's. I'm pretty sure around 1900, it was the third largest city in MI and before that, the second. I could be wrong, but if memory serves, that's what research has taught me.

[GR8scott]

I didn't realize warren was ever that big as in 1970, over 5k ppl/ sq mi

Im pretty sure Sagnasty had well over 100k for a bit

[Picture Michigan]

Wow, nice homework Phizzy!

This lot in Muskegon:

Taken 10/10/04 ... this is where such a highrise could/could've gone.

[Picture Michigan]

Cities that have had a population of at least 100,000 after at least one census:

Since 1900, it appears that Grand Rapids has always been the 2nd largest city, aside from 1960.

Note that in 2000 Grand Rapids had its highest population at an official census.

Further back for Grand Rapids:

Kinda tough looking at those "official" numbers, because it's the mid-cycle estimates that show Detroit breaking the 2,000,000 point and GR breaking the 200,000 point. 1976 is the year that keeps jumping to mind, but I found at census.gov listing it at 197K.

[dbrok]

Cities that have had a population of at least 100,000 after at least one census:

                  1900       1910       1920      1930       1940       1950       1960       1970       1980       1990       2000

Detroit 285,704 465,766 993,078 1,568,662 1,623,452 1,849,568* 1,670,144 1,514,063 1,203,339 1,027,974 951,270

* Maximum census population

Look at the drop off for Detroit; they've lost half of their population over the last 50 years. That's pretty dramatic.

[Phizzy]

Phizz I'm suprised you didn't add saginaw in that mix, It's an older more established city than most of us realize. It's just gone downhill since the 70's. I'm pretty sure around 1900, it was the third largest city in MI and before that, the second. I could be wrong, but if memory serves, that's what research has taught me.

I added Saginaw, although, I was limiting the list to cities that hit 100,000 at an official census. The highest for Saginaw was 98,265 in 1960. However, it might have been 100,000+ sometime in the late 1950s or early 1960s. Unfortunately, I can't find any population figures for Saginaw pre-1960...

[Phizzy]

Kinda tough looking at those "official" numbers, because it's the mid-cycle estimates that show Detroit breaking the 2,000,000 point and GR breaking the 200,000 point. 1976 is the year that keeps jumping to mind, but I found at census.gov listing it at 197K.

I also remember a Census Bureau estimate showing Grand Rapids above 200,000. But, I can't find anything to back that up at census.gov or elsewhere.

[MJLO]

at one point the census bureau website, had population figures for certain cities, all the way back to 1790, that's where I get the Idea in my head about Saginaw.

[GR8scott]

Look at the drop off for Detroit; they've lost half of their population over the last 50 years. That's pretty dramatic.

more than half by now its at 900k and dropping, I can't imagine how low it can go probably not below 500k is my guess

[MJLO]

Detroits decline is directly related to politics and mismanagement. While Detroit has lost people Dramatically since the 50's, South Eastern Michigans population has quadrupled. You, know that can't be only people leaving Detroit for the burbs.

[evac311]

It seems strange that GR city has lost population from 2000-2004. Is this trend reversing?

[Phizzy]

more than half by now its at 900k and dropping, I can't imagine how low it can go probably not below 500k is my guess

Detroit's rate of decline seems to have slowed, so it probably won't dip down to 500,000.

1950-1960 - 179,424 decline

1960-1970 - 156,081 decline

1970-1980 - 310,724 decline

1980-1990 - 175,365 decline

1990-2000 - 76,704 decline

One the other hand, the Census Bureau says Detroit lost 51,072 between 2000 and 2004.

Incredibly, Detroit has lost ~1,000,000 since its max.