Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[ChiefJoJo]

Let's be reasonable, does a 40 story building really make sense, is this tought through ? At firts the Soleil Group was just going to remodel the existing hotel shell on site (which is about 15 stories I think.) Now lets raze it and triple the height. Many people on this board have an obsession with height and not smart, forward thinking design.

Yes. I can't imagine how anyone would say a 40 story bldg at Crabtree makes any sense at all. If the plans get through the planning dept with any support, I'd be floored.

[Tayfromcarolina]

Yep. We should bet on it. Any takers?

[Subway Scoundrel]

I think that would be great if they can pull that off with the skywalks, it would make it have a more urban feel no doubt.  But speaking of skywalks we dont even have any downtown accept for the legislative building i think connecting to some building.  You go to charlotte and you see skywalks everywhere.  I wish we had more of those downtown, but who would use them nobody even uses the sidewalks downtown accept for a few homeless at night.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I read a lot here about Skywalks. But I would rather see underground walks like in I see in Europe, especially Italy and Central Europe cities. Now, Crabtree is in a flood plane, so could be a problem but I think the Marriot cross walk should be below the road. The problem is pedestrians still would be directly straight into the parking deck where a Suburbanite Suburban with a cell phone pinned to his/her ear could take out anyone within 20 yards.

[romec]

<crazy costly idea warning>

Crabtree bulldozes the parking lot, or reconfigures if that's even possible. Builds an 8 story structure: 2 mall levels, some residential layers and parking levels. "Seamless" connection is formed to the new tower project across the street.

</crazy costly idea>

I'm well aware of the fact that I just spent 10's of milllions of dollars and screwed up parking for a year. Just imagine how unique this project would be!

[HighRiseGuY]

This may have already be mentioned but.. any idea of how far away from downtown this project will be?

[orulz]

I read a lot here about Skywalks.  But I would rather see underground walks like in I see in Europe, especially Italy and Central Europe cities.  Now, Crabtree is in a flood plane, so could be a problem but I think the Marriot cross walk should be below the road.  The problem is pedestrians still would be directly straight into the parking deck where a Suburbanite Suburban with a cell phone pinned to his/her ear could take out anyone within 20 yards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People don't tend to like skywalks downtown where there are frequent cross streets, many signalized crosswalks, and relatively slow traffic. There's probably never going to be a street retail scene on the Creedmoor Road Extension, so I say that if a skywalk can be built, it should be done. Skywalks across Glenwood to the Embassy Suites would be great too, since once again there will never, ever be a street retail scene along Glenwood.

Pedestrian crossings at suburban malls can be made to work, for an example just check out Southpoint. If the skywalk were brightly lit and had just one well-designed traffic crossing then it could be very safe and even add to the ambiance.

Anyway, if this project is well done it could turn out to be a very good thing. If it's not it could turn out to be a useless, blaring eyesore. At 40 stories I'm a bit skeptical but I say let's wait and see when something more concrete is proposed.

[richthofen]

There are quite a few single family homes norht of the site on the other side of the Glenwood that would be in the shadow of a 40 story building. Let's be reasonable, does a 40 story building really make sense, is this tought through ? At firts the Soleil Group was just going to remodel the existing hotel shell on site (which is about 15 stories I think.) Now lets raze it and triple the height.  Many people on this board have an obsession with height and not smart, forward thinking design.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I read the article right, they're razing the current building because they discovered that it wasn't structurally sound for what they wanted to do with it. Can't argue too much with that.

Were it not for that, Hudson Belk would still be downtown and Sears would still be at Cameron Village.

What building at CV did Sears occupy, out of curiosity? Obviously this was a long time ago....

[StevenRocks]

What building at CV did Sears occupy, out of curiosity?  Obviously this was a long time ago....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sears was in the current Harris Teeter building at Cameron Village. It opened in the late '40s or early '50s and moved to Crabtree Valley in 1972.

From 1972 until 1991, Thalhimers occupied the space, then they closed down when Thalhimers sold out to Hecht's and opened at Cary Towne Center.

FYI, JCPenney (which was in another building) left Cameron Village for Cary around the same time.

Harris Teeter opened somewhere around 1994 in the Sears/Thalhimers building after extensive renovations.

[Jones_]

Raleigh has reached the point where we should expect to see a downtown and several "midtowns". As mentioned earlier, crabtree, cameron village, northhills, and even Rex Hospital (with the proposed mixed use off Lake Boone) and the Wake Med area have tended to arise as such. I personally would not want a 40 story building downtown with a blighted multistory parking deck attached from the start and think Crabtree is as good a spot as any other. Downtown Raleigh should be mid-rise, heavily residential development with lots of trees and onstreet parking being sufficient for all uses. North Person Street is an excellent example of what cities like Alexandria VA have throughout their grids. Skyscrapers should be near interstates (Again like Alexandria). Workers are insulated above the noise and pollution and the intestates can pump in the many car loads of workers occupying the space.

[Damien]

If city leaders want to breathe new life into dt, then there need to be highrises. There are already several mid rise bldgs dt, and several more on the way. Downtown areas are the perfect place for high rise bldgs. Also, keep in mind that the triangle area is right near the intersection of I-95 and I-40, which makes this area the perfect spot to plan a true world class city.

[Subway Scoundrel]

Raleigh has reached the point where we should expect to see a downtown and several "midtowns". As mentioned earlier, crabtree, cameron village, northhills, and even Rex Hospital (with the proposed mixed use off Lake Boone) and the Wake Med area have tended to arise as such. I personally would not want a 40 story building downtown with a blighted multistory parking deck attached from the start and think Crabtree is as good a spot as any other. Downtown Raleigh should be mid-rise, heavily residential development with lots of trees and onstreet parking being sufficient for all uses. North Person Street is an excellent example of what cities like Alexandria VA have throughout their grids. Skyscrapers should be near interstates (Again like Alexandria). Workers are insulated above the noise and pollution and the intestates can pump in the many car loads of workers occupying the space.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand the comment above but I have a hard time with the "Savannah/Alexandria" Design School" mentality. Please don't take offense as I have this talk with my best friend (Landscape Arch/Masters in Design). You also see this in Tom Crowder on the RCC. We are not Savannah or Alexandria. We are much bigger and have 10 times the economy that Savannah has and we are not an historic suburb of a huge city like Alexandria. I believe the place to put tall buildings is downtown and artery hub (MHO) and not necessarily only next to a interstate (but I do understand the concept). We have that at Highwoods and you have to drive to it As an overall comment (not aimed at the comment above) We will never be like those small cities and should not try to be like them. (again, MHO) They have been built on solid ideas, but 2 -3 centuries ago. Time to move on and build something that will define this century. I have debates on this with my design friends all the time who most of them would not build anything over 6 stories anywhere. Only having Six story mid-rises are OK if it started that way 200 years ago and the buildings are still around, but a 21 century city needs to go up in the places mention. Again, no offence as this is just my opinion.

[jlblaes]

Kind of a fluffy story but you get some small blurbs containing Raleigh City Council Members opinions on the project.

News & Observer Article

[NCMike1981]

I doubt that land by Crabtree is cheap but I'm assuming it's cheaper then downtown....which is probably why it's being proposed here and not there.....but damn if only...

[urbanesq]

["There won't be any occupied space on the first floor," Johnson said. There will more than likely be parking on the first six floors, he said.]

Seems like a shame. Doesn't appear to be designed to create an urban-type fabric or a basis for walkable community in that area.

Like others, I think it's a cool-looking building that will be both iconic and out of place, and I would be really excited it it were proposed for downtown (of course, the developers own land at Crabtree, not downtown, which is why it's proposed for that spot).

My fear is that there is limited ability for our hotel/condo market to absorb this type of product, and that its suburban location will not create a "skyscraper boom" in Raleigh, but more likely will divert what little momentum appears to be building downtown and prevent similar projects from being built there. Overall I think it will be like University Tower (or the "Pickle Building", as my kids call it) in Durham.

It's neat to be having this conversation in Raleigh, though, isn't it?

[Rickydavisfan21]

boy oh boy does this kinda thing look familiar, anyone remember what the arlington (pepto tower) was supposed to look like, It was supposed to be 42 stories, and outside of downtown, but Raleigh really doesn't have the structures downtown to outweigh something of this magnitude, like charlotte would have. I can see a substancial scaling back, I'm not saying it won't be the tallest building in raleigh, but I could see it more in the lower thirties, and this building design is definately not something for raleigh, but it would be a nice addition, you get what you can. Maybe us charlotteans can lend ya'll a building or two

Only word of advice I have to the developer Mr. Walia is don't paint it pink

[Rickydavisfan21]

also, all these years I thought it was Charlotte endangering itself of becoming another atlanta with its poorly located skyscrapars, which luckily charlotte has scaled back everything that has ever been built outside the 277 loop, and well I pray for raleigh

[Damien]

I dont agree that this building is not something for Raleigh, although I do agree that the placement isnt the best. The new convention center is very modern, which leads me to believe that the city will start seeking out more modern buildings to compliment this structure.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

the developers are drunk. this won't fly.

[jlblaes]

I just came across a document on the www.visitraleigh.com web site that mentioned that the old plan (use the shell of the old hotel) included tentative plans include Morton

[jlblaes]

The developers web site (http://www.soleil-group.com) includes the text below about the Glen-Tree porject...

In addition to the Raleigh Westin hotel, Soleil Group is creating an out parcel with demolition of a four story building to accommodate a luxury multi-use development to include upscale restaurant, full-service health spa and luxury condominiums.

I assume they are referring to the back and white building that has the clock and temperature reading on it ? You might be able to get a peek of the property at the Glenwood Ave/Creedmoor Rd traffic camera.

Camera Link 1

Camera Link 2

[NCMike1981]

Isn't the building with the clock and temperature reading higher then 4 stories?

[orulz]

There is an article in today's News & Observer about the in progress and proposed developments at Crabtree Valley and North Hills.

They mention that both will be designed with mixed-use in mind, with up to 1,000 residential units at North Hills, and 2,000 at Crabtree Valley.

The article says that the developers recognize the most important aspect of a functional mixed use environment is walkability - and states that "the city has been devising pedestrian plans for Crabtree Valley that could include improved sidewalks along Creedmoor and Blue Ridge roads and Crabtree Valley Avenue and connections between hotels, sidewalks and paths" to make it happen.

It's an interesting thought. Crabtree Valley might make a good "midtown" for Raleigh, as long as they do a good job with the pedestrian element and don't let it get overrun with parking lots. Sure, let the people park - but do it creatively, with shared parking decks, above ground and below (sort of like North Hills, but even better.) And whatever they do, there should not be a huge parking lot in front of every store like a glorified strip mall (Brier Creek!)

Anyway. I'm not holding my breath.

[Jones_]

I understand the comment above but I have a hard time with the "Savannah/Alexandria" Design School" mentality.  Please don't take offense as I have this talk with my best friend  (Landscape Arch/Masters in Design).  You also see this in Tom Crowder on the RCC.    We are not Savannah or Alexandria.  We are much bigger and have 10 times the economy that Savannah has and we are not an historic suburb of a huge city like Alexandria.  I believe the place to put tall buildings is downtown and artery hub (MHO) and not necessarily only next to a interstate (but I do understand the concept).  We have that at Highwoods and you have to drive to it  As an overall comment (not aimed at the comment above) We will never be like those small cities and should not try to be like them. (again, MHO)  They have been built on solid ideas, but 2 -3 centuries ago.  Time to move on and build something that will define this century.  I have debates on this with my design friends all the time who most of them would not build anything over 6 stories anywhere.  Only having Six story mid-rises are OK if it started that way 200 years ago and the buildings are still around, but a 21 century city needs to go up in the places mention.  Again, no offence as this is just my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Savannah and Alexandria are quite different places, mostly due potential for new development and current populations. In 1990 Alexandria and Raleigh were not terribly different in population (276,000 Raleigh, 125,000 Alexandria), and if anything, the lack of available land around Alexandria would tend to put pressure on demolition and redevelopment, whereas in Raleigh infinite land in every direction should have made in infeasible to demolish and rebuild or demolish and pave as often happened. If you look at C.N. Dries map of Raleigh from 1872, Raleigh had 20 or so blocks of fairly dense urban type core, with industrial buildings, row houses, hotels and civic buildings aplenty.

In terms of new development when historic resources are not an issue, downtown highrise is always accompanied by adjacent demolition for surface parking or inclusion of often poorly designed, un-pedestrian friendly parking garages unless 1) the live-work environment is exceptional (in Raleigh it is not) or 2) passenger car and mass transit infrastructure is supurb (again in, Raleigh neither is). Ultimately highrise is necessary in places like Chicago where land is at a premium, but Raleigh wants to jump from being half parking lot straight to high-rise. Nice and prominant as they look, there was no reason for Wachovia and BB&T to go to 29 stories when there were 50 acres of parking lots downtown. Washington D.C. is an ocean of 6-12 story buildings with the METRO and pedestrian friendliness galore...if only Raleigh had its own Washington Monument to dictate the height of its buildings.

[NCMike1981]

God forbid Raleigh dare to make a statement in any way....Thank God the 2 tallest were built, otherwise downtown Raleigh would look freaking pitiful, and it would be even harder to get anything above 20 stories built....Jesus we are a city of 340,000 people here, not Mayberry or some small city like Wilmington...Raleigh is so large landwise and populationwise that it needs to have a center that reflects the true promince of the city...not a reflection of the Raleigh of the early '90's...

BTW if the whole "towers are not needed until all of downtown's parking lots are occupied" rule were followed then downtowns all across NC would be about 1/2 of there current size, many would not have any skyscrapers at all. God that would be so boring!

[urbanvb]

Developing DT should be a priority for Raleigh. Here where I live, Va Beach is a city of sprawl in all directions and just now we are beginning to build a DT - from the ground up literally. Having a DT gives a sense of space and place and a common area for all to enjoy.