Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[MR-2]

Christ you guys. I want to see heavy development in Raleigh as much as anyone. But we can't be idiots about it and accept every damn proposal just because we're lucky not to get worse. There's smart growth; there's growth that builds a cohesive urban fabric; and there's sprawl. And just because it's vertical doesn't mean it isn't sprawl.

Sure, and it is quite simple. The developer doesn't want to put the building on Fayetteville Street. The reasons for placing this structure where it is are valid in my opinion.

Perhaps when you acquire a huge sum of cash and the desire to build a visionary skyscraper, you can choose where you would like to build it. Just like now, I wouldn't want to stand in your way--I'd welcome such a massive investment in my community.

I would be massively offended and disgusted if a bunch of busybody suburbanites and downtown boosters started dictating and enforcing location and height specifications to me if I envisioned this incredibly gorgeous, sleek, and functional skyscraper--all designed with a purpose and placed in what is clearly becoming a hot spot of suburban Raleigh. Not only that, but this building is in a lot that is practically at the bottom of the Crabtree Creek bluffs... Everything else is on higher ground, even the parking lot of Circuit City.

Now don't get me wrong. Subjectively speaking I believe two or more shorter buildings would be a much better way to go, both aesthetically and keeping more of a "pedestrian scale"... I would go so far as to offer input to a developer, make a case for my opinion, etc... But if this guy is dead set on a single tall building then for christ's sake let it be, or be prepared to lose in the future.

I'm most certainly not the only one who feels this way. We're talking about very wealthy and powerful people, and their impact means a lot to a city like Raleigh. There is simply a line that you do not cross, at least not at this stage in our development.

"He's rich and he says so" is a really half-assed reason to do anything.

I want to see evidence that weighs the merits of building this downtown versus building it at Crabtree and rationally shows that Crabtree is more suitable. The project could very easily be a bad idea for everyone, or a malicious one aimed at taking advantage of a growing city while not benefitting the city at all.

A tall building on its own will disproportionately burden the infastructure compared to one in a dense group. The people that work at this building will have to drive to it no matter where it is. The people rooming there will have to drive a hell of a lot more unless they're downtown.

Are you implying that there will never ever be any more buildings ever constructed in Raleigh? Is this the final skyscraper to arrive in Raleigh, clearly one of the fastest growing cities in the country, and one that is only just now getting started on its road to maturity?

I think the primary point against a 40-story structure in Crabtree is that it'll pull from business downtown while saturating the market for other projects of that scale downtown. Essentially it would prevent its own succession. Raleigh isn't a Winston-Salem or a Charlotte as far as its skyline goes; it grows disproportionately slow. Practically all of the growth the city's done in the past 10 years has been suburban, and building this in the outskirts will only aggravate that.

A lot of folks on this board tend to forget that the private sector are the ones who invest the vast majority of capital for these projects. The city might have preferences regarding these kind of projects but they can't tell investors where to invest their $40 million or whatever.

Yeah, they can. Zoning has a purpose. It reflects need and accessibility. And don't feel bad for the private sector; generally their projects pay for themselves in the long run.

Do we want a big jump start for development or do we want more of the same for the next 20 years or so. And yes, it will be 20 years. Look at South Park in Charlotte 20 years ago and look at it today. In terms of population and land area, Charlotte is sitting at least 20 years ahead of Raleigh... We can make perhaps a few loose predictions by looking at our older sister. We are fools if we don't take every opportunity to embrace cutting edge proposals--and this is most certainly cutting edge.

Your parallel to University Tower is not congruent. Glen Tree and University Tower serve completely different purposes, they interface with the surroundings in a completely different way, and they were proposed in absolutely incomparable eras.

Charlotte didn't get where it is by building luxury hotels in Gastonia.

Glenn Tree and the University Tower are both mixed use projects that were designed to tie into their respective areas and pave the way for more development there.

15-501 didn't deteriorate into Capitol Blvd's evil stepbrother until well after UT was built. It would've happened anyway; I'm not blaming UT. But I would blame it for substantially slowing down Durham's revitalization.

At least the Sheraton in Greensboro ties into the convention center.

Anyone on a business trip staying in Glenn Tree is going to have to drive down Glennwood 30 minutes to get to Raleigh's CC, and add to the horrid traffic.

It's a hotel basically. Hotels are for people on business trips or visiting things. I seriously doubt people are flying in from the rest of the country to 'conduct business' in a random indoor mall. I certainly don't recall any museums in the area. Building a hotel where its customers are going to have to drive everywhere is nonsensical, particularly for the size and angle this particular project is marketing.

[jlblaes]

So the Soleil Group wants to invest $90M in a blighted property and the city should use zoning regulations to nix because they want this development downtown ? Sure I would prefer to have tis project downtown, but if downtown could support it, don't you think the Soleil Group would build it in DT. Zoning regulations or not, the city can't tell these folks where to build it and they shouldn't.

Maybe the city then stop all development that isn't downtown. Hell, I'm not a conservative but people do have property rights. This isn't Sim City, there are a lot of forces driving these things and trying to dictate how everything will unfold is a recipe for disaster.

[JunktionFET]

MR-2, your passion is admirable. I don't expect to change anyone's mind. In all fairness, you do have some very valid points. But I really believe some of my points are just as valid, and I hope you would agree. I suppose in the end it comes down to how you weigh the points--is the glass half full or half empty, that sort of thing.

I suspect we will just agree to disagree because I know you will never change my mind, and I have feeling I probably will not change yours. However, we may influence some of the opinions we have about certain components of this project, agreed? For example, your responses have caused me to reprocess and reevaluate my stance on some of this stuff.

A few thoughts--some things I think you might've have misunderstood from me before:

"He's rich and he says so" is a really half-assed reason to do anything.

I want to see evidence that weighs the merits of building this downtown versus building it at Crabtree and rationally shows that Crabtree is more suitable.

Half-assed or not, that is how the crapola flies. No matter how much we wish it weren't so, the location of this project simply is not the decision of the city, you, me, or anyone else except the person with the cash. That is the end of it.

Sure, the city and its citizens can make suggestions by offering some relevant and really logical arguments as to why it should be one way and not another. But in the end there are two problems with enforcing (<- key) a modified plan--we really don't have the right to do that, and it's actually quite rude. We're being given something spectacular, but then we pick it apart. Bah... Either we want it or we don't... and if the developer gets disgusted and leaves town (because that is an perfectly viable option), I would not blame him or be the least bit upset. I'd almost expect it.

Now, if the city wants a 46 story luxury hotel, office, condo extravaganza downtown, then by all means--the city should muster up the cash and build it. No private developer will stand in the way. I'll be the first to offer up a donation--though I'm afraid my monthly budget won't allow for too crazy of a contribution

-----

Their reason that really caught my attention regarding the location is the fact that it would better serve the Triangle as a whole--conveniently serving travellers working in RTP, North Raleigh, and West Raleigh courtesy of several major arterial routes intersecting or nearby. Downtown can make no such claim. This project isn't for downtown... it was never intended for it and it really just throws the whole vision off. I'm sure in the future there will be lots of splendid luxury hotel ideas for downtown, but this one is not it.

Also, it is situated next to a large and somewhat upscale regional mall with a lot of development potential and new proposals in and around the complex. It offers ready access to Raleigh's greenway system, and it is a very unique opportunity for a location like Crabtree Valley--a location redefining itself. It is one of the area's destinations, and a premier project like this could also be viewed as an anchor of sorts, either visually or in principle.

Raleigh is a highly sprawled city and it will continue to become sprawled--regardless of what happens downtown. Downtown is a very important part of Raleigh, but it most certainly isn't the only part.

The Downtown Raleigh Alliance (and other such organizations) have a plan about how they'd like to see downtown develop, but developers have no such plan. We have to take them as they come--and be careful not to blow off one part of the city or another just because it doesn't fit into the storyboard sequence we have in our heads.

Another thing--this building is not sprawl at all. It concentrates a lot of people into one spot (eh, increases density) and thus will most certainly benefit the existing and future development around the area in some form. You cannot possibly suggest there would not be some kind of positive impact from this. We are seeing Crabtree (as well as some other spots in North Raleigh) evolve into more urbanlike centers, and this is a good thing. A 46 story tower isn't necessarily a prerequesite for this evolution to happen, but I believe turning it down would retard the area's smart growth.

And one more thing:

But we can't be idiots about it and accept every damn proposal just because we're lucky not to get worse.

We aren't being idiots. For starters, Raleigh seldom gets proposals like this. In fact, I'd wager a guess and say that this is the first time such a project has come along. Second--it is sound in design and intent... and the location is quite appropriate. This isn't blind acceptance... it is a good deal and if the developer doesn't want to scale back then I'm satisfied that the people in charge of Raleigh lack vision.

On the other hand, maybe we should try to shift every condo, hotel, mixed use, and anything else that isn't a single family home downtown and let the rest of the city go to pot? I know that isn't what you're saying, but I sometimes wonder about Meeker. He has done great things for downtown, but sometimes it seems like he sort of forgets about the rest of the city. Astonishing since "the rest of the city" is where everyone in Raleigh actually lives and has to function.

Charlotte didn't get where it is by building luxury hotels in Gastonia.

That's a really inappropriate comparison, if it is meant to be a comparison at all. Sort of funny though, in a sarcastic kind of way.

Raleigh isn't building anything in this discussion... A company with a lot of money is.

Anyone on a business trip staying in Glenn Tree is going to have to drive down Glennwood 30 minutes to get to Raleigh's CC, and add to the horrid traffic...

...Hotels are for people on business trips or visiting things. I seriously doubt people are flying in from the rest of the country to 'conduct business' in a random indoor mall. I certainly don't recall any museums in the area. Building a hotel where its customers are going to have to drive everywhere is nonsensical, particularly for the size and angle this particular project is marketing.

This isn't a convention hotel... it could be used by convention goers, but that is certainly not its primary purpose. Convention goers may also choose to stay at a place in Cary, etc.

Also, people who come to this area drive anyway and that certainly hasn't held us back. I agree that reduced dependency on the car is a good thing, but let's not split hairs (just yet anyway). Also, there are hotels already in downtown, and more are on the way... and if a business traveller wanted to stay downtown, they most certainly have that choice. Most people who come to downtown drive around as well. Have you ever tried walking from attraction to attraction downtown? Just imagine some lonely traveller who doesn't know their way around. And if a local person conducts a tour, chances are they will be in a Jaugar or BMW at least part of the time. Yeah okay... I guess we are splitting hairs now

Look people, I am really sorry for my long-windedness. Please do take the time to read through this though--offer up some points you agree and disagree with, if you have the time.

[avery]

This is a great topic that ties in many of the issues Raleigh faces regarding growth and development. I applaud Meeker for his efforts on downtown and think that it is heading in the right direction, but to totally nix this project sends mixed signals.

I feel like the city is somewhat offended that a development like this was proposed in an area outside of downtown. With so much focus on the redevelopment on downtown, this 46-story tower may come as a slap in the face to many. How dare the city's tallest be outside its urban core? I wish the city's tallest in Raleigh to be in downtown myself but I'm sure downtown will have its share of proposals in the near future. A scaled down version of this project is not an improper move in my opinion. A 25-story tower certainly is still a large, high profile development. I do think 46 is a bit much, but you know what, NIMBYs will never go away and every issue is not black and white. Meeting in the middle is smart politically and ensures everyone does not lose.

I used to travel 3 weeks out of the month and found myself staying in hotels close to areas similar to Crabtree. Not every business person is going to want to stay in downtown areas. North Hills is about to build a new Renaissance Hotel and I hear no complaints from anyone here about this. Crabtree is not 30 minutes from downtown either. I live near Crabtree and it takes me 15 minutes to hit downtown...thats it!

Our answers to sprawl should not be limited to downtown development. I thought the idea of high density development is smart. I think the Crabtree area's infrastructure is sufficient for this type of development and fits well in this locale. When I think of sprawl, I think of rapid growing areas like Wake Forest, Knightdale, Holly Springs, Fuquay, etc. I don't consider growth 10 miles from the city's urban core as sprawl. I think this is quite the opposite. Not everyone wants to live downtown and to neglect areas like these will lead to poor planning and missed opportunities. Take a look at Capital Blvd around 440. It is similar in location to Crabtree and North Hills and this area is scary in my opinion. This is a high-end proposal and I think the city should jump all over it. Would people be happier if the Westin proposal fell though and Motel 6 came to the spot instead? I see areas such as Crabtree and North Hills similar to areas like Buckhead in Atlanta on a much smaller scale. I just don't understand how we can sit here and talk about high-density in downtown only and then talk about issues such as sprawl and regional rail without considering proposals such as this.

[MireLanski]

As per the man himself, Dicky S. Walia of the Soleil Group:

Thanks for your support of our Glentree Project. The Project is very much on the go and has not been scaled down. I have attached information for your review. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance to you. Further you can help our project by contacting the following and expressing your support of our project.

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[romec]

Mire, Thank you soooo much. I am so tired of everyone having mysterious anonymous sources telling things.

Additionally just a slight correction, Crabtree isn't even 10 miles away from downtown; following Glenwood and it is less than 5 miles.

[MR-2]

Half-assed or not, that is how the crapola flies. No matter how much we wish it weren't so, the location of this project simply is not the decision of the city, you, me, or anyone else except the person with the cash. That is the end of it.

Sure, the city and its citizens can make suggestions by offering some relevant and really logical arguments as to why it should be one way and not another. But in the end there are two problems with enforcing (<- key) a modified plan--we really don't have the right to do that, and it's actually quite rude. We're being given something spectacular, but then we pick it apart. Bah... Either we want it or we don't... and if the developer gets disgusted and leaves town (because that is an perfectly viable option), I would not blame him or be the least bit upset. I'd almost expect it.

Now, if the city wants a 46 story luxury hotel, office, condo extravaganza downtown, then by all means--the city should muster up the cash and build it. No private developer will stand in the way. I'll be the first to offer up a donation--though I'm afraid my monthly budget won't allow for too crazy of a contribution

The city has every right to regulate the use of property within its borders. If someone wanted to build a 600-ft, completely empty glass box off of 540, it is the duty of the officials to recognize the economic infeasibility of it and damage it would cause to surrounding areas/downtown. I don't know what Raleigh's current height regulations are (probably nonexistant like Durham's), but in a matter of time, the council will probably set neighborhood specific height limitations with the focus on forcing businesses of a certain size downtown.

The problem in Raleigh is that currently nobody *wants* to be downtown. People want to be at Crabtree, or North Hills, or Triangle Town Center, or Southpoint. We're in a period of market coaxing where priority has to be set to downtown, because once people are there, they'll make it worthwhile on their own, and it'll become a self-sustaining market center for the city. It isn't currently, and building a giant office complex far away from it, particularly this huge, will carry consequences.

Look at the comparative success for two proposals: Ted Reynolds' 32 floor project is continually being pushed back, and faces being trimmed down substantially, because he can't get enough companies on board for downtown occupation. Whereas Soleil already have enough speculative interest to go ahead with a substantially larger project, despite competition that'll turn up in North Hills.

The hotel has 200 rooms. 200 rooms does not a 40-floor tower make. It'll maybe take up 5 floors if the rooms are big (and they are, of course). They'll take up the renovated clarion portion of the building. The tower gets to hold the businesses. There are a *lot* that can fit in 40 floors, and the accessibility of the site to the suburban road network, the triangle in general, and the price of the space will lure a substantial wedge of potential investment in downtown away.

Crabtree honestly doesn't need that much help. It certainly doesn't need that much traffic, but they'll put up with it.

It's going to be like that for a long time. The convention center may well turn things around, but until then downtown is just going to be one of many urban office clusters, just slightly larger than all of the others, but collectively a drop in the ocean in terms of economic magnitude. And every developer looking to build anything will judge downtown accordingly, and rule against building there since the activity advantages just don't outweigh the location advantages of many suburban areas.

However, after enough forcing, it'll pay off. The merits of setting up a business downtown of any size or type will be enough to pull developers without the massive coaxing Raleigh's government has had to do in the past few years, barring some exceptions.

Their reason that really caught my attention regarding the location is the fact that it would better serve the Triangle as a whole--conveniently serving travellers working in RTP, North Raleigh, and West Raleigh courtesy of several major arterial routes intersecting or nearby. Downtown can make no such claim. This project isn't for downtown... it was never intended for it and it really just throws the whole vision off. I'm sure in the future there will be lots of splendid luxury hotel ideas for downtown, but this one is not it.

Also, it is situated next to a large and somewhat upscale regional mall with a lot of development potential and new proposals in and around the complex. It offers ready access to Raleigh's greenway system, and it is a very unique opportunity for a location like Crabtree Valley--a location redefining itself. It is one of the area's destinations, and a premier project like this could also be viewed as an anchor of sorts, either visually or in principle.

Exactly the reason nobody wants to be downtown. The city council is going to push a lot of companies there regardless of what they want. What is special about this particular project that merits immunity to Raleigh's development plans?

Architecturally, this building isn't a gift at all. Every model I've seen looks... well... fugly. The tower is the only redeeming feature, honestly. It's not the only luxury hotel Raleigh is getting. Office space can go anywhere. With a different design they could fit all of their intended space in the same lot, at half the height. That would just look even fuglier though.

Raleigh is a highly sprawled city and it will continue to become sprawled--regardless of what happens downtown. Downtown is a very important part of Raleigh, but it most certainly isn't the only part.

The Downtown Raleigh Alliance (and other such organizations) have a plan about how they'd like to see downtown develop, but developers have no such plan. We have to take them as they come--and be careful not to blow off one part of the city or another just because it doesn't fit into the storyboard sequence we have in our heads.

Downtown is basically a denser, more crime-ridden version of the same-old same-old everywhere else in the Triangle, and that is exactly why it needs preferential treatment from city regulations.

I like your attitude. It's infectious and optimistic. It forecasts things will work out no matter where things are built, and that's true in many ways. The market advantages of simply being in Raleigh are very high at this point, and because of that it is inevitable that all parts of the city will see improvement. When as much as an eighth of the city is showing up and setting up camp every year,

I also recognize that having the new luxury hotels will open Raleigh up for even more areas of the market that were previously unattainable for a city its size. That's a good thing.

I'm not going to lie; I think this project will benefit Raleigh in many ways.

But we're kidding ourselves if we think it's just a big gravy train of smart development.

Another thing--this building is not sprawl at all. It concentrates a lot of people into one spot (eh, increases density) and thus will most certainly benefit the existing and future development around the area in some form. You cannot possibly suggest there would not be some kind of positive impact from this. We are seeing Crabtree (as well as some other spots in North Raleigh) evolve into more urbanlike centers, and this is a good thing. A 46 story tower isn't necessarily a prerequesite for this evolution to happen, but I believe turning it down would retard the area's smart growth.

Tell that to Moscow. Tall != urban. Urbanism requires connectivity. Glenn-Tree will be well connected to everything within itself; it'll be fairly self-sufficient. But for everything not in Glenn-Tree, there's a nice drive in rush hour traffic. It doesn't matter if those drivers came from single-family homes or a 40 story sardine project; they're on the road, clogging it up for everyone else; taking up disproportionate utilities for their purposes. Unless Soleil intend on building an archology, it's sprawl.

And one more thing:

We aren't being idiots. For starters, Raleigh seldom gets proposals like this. In fact, I'd wager a guess and say that this is the first time such a project has come along. Second--it is sound in design and intent... and the location is quite appropriate. This isn't blind acceptance... it is a good deal and if the developer doesn't want to scale back then I'm satisfied that the people in charge of Raleigh lack vision.

On the other hand, maybe we should try to shift every condo, hotel, mixed use, and anything else that isn't a single family home downtown and let the rest of the city go to pot? I know that isn't what you're saying, but I sometimes wonder about Meeker. He has done great things for downtown, but sometimes it seems like he sort of forgets about the rest of the city. Astonishing since "the rest of the city" is where everyone in Raleigh actually lives and has to function.

That's a really inappropriate comparison, if it is meant to be a comparison at all. Sort of funny though, in a sarcastic kind of way.

Raleigh isn't building anything in this discussion... A company with a lot of money is.

This isn't a convention hotel... it could be used by convention goers, but that is certainly not its primary purpose. Convention goers may also choose to stay at a place in Cary, etc.

Also, people who come to this area drive anyway and that certainly hasn't held us back. I agree that reduced dependency on the car is a good thing, but let's not split hairs (just yet anyway). Also, there are hotels already in downtown, and more are on the way... and if a business traveller wanted to stay downtown, they most certainly have that choice. Most people who come to downtown drive around as well. Have you ever tried walking from attraction to attraction downtown? Just imagine some lonely traveller who doesn't know their way around. And if a local person conducts a tour, chances are they will be in a Jaugar or BMW at least part of the time. Yeah okay... I guess we are splitting hairs now

Look people, I am really sorry for my long-windedness. Please do take the time to read through this though--offer up some points you agree and disagree with, if you have the time.

Actually, yeah. Shifting basically most future development above a certain height to downtown is exactly what Raleigh is considering. Rot? The outskirts most certainly will not. They'd continue growing as always; most of the stuff that gets built is less than 6 floors anyway. Generally the purpose of height restriction is to ease infastructure need in remote areas, and ensure that the stuff that belongs downtown gets there.

Still, a lot of this is a matter of taste. Some people like having monotonous development with no distinct business core. I, personally, just see this project as a market excuse to get in the way of real urban development in a region that needs it.

[Justin6882]

Just a quick note from this weeks Business Journal (online version available Monday), Crabtree is currently courting Bloomingdales for the Lord & Taylor space. Both are owned by the same company and they are currently looking to expand the Bloomingdale's brand.

Most will note that Lord and Taylor was slated to close earlier but they have kept it open as long as they can...good sign for Bloomingdale's filling the space? It would be the first one in the state (Take that Charlotte! )

Also mentioned Glen-Tree as a major catalyst to get Bloomingdale's, as it would bring the high end clientele within 100 yards from the mall.

[StevenRocks]

Just a quick note from this weeks Business Journal (online version available Monday), Crabtree is currently courting Bloomingdales for the Lord & Taylor space. Both are owned by the same company and they are currently looking to expand the Bloomingdale's brand.

Most will note that Lord and Taylor was slated to close earlier but they have kept it open as long as they can...good sign for Bloomingdale's filling the space? It would be the first one in the state (Take that Charlotte! )

Also mentioned Glen-Tree as a major catalyst to get Bloomingdale's, as it would bring the high end clientele within 100 yards from the mall.

Interesting. That space would need signifigant expansion and renovation to become a Bloomingdale's, but it's not completely out of the realm of possibility. If Bloomingdale's comes to Crabtree, that might put some credence to the rumors that they're coming to Richmond and Charlotte as well.

[MireLanski]

The FAQ Dicky Walia sent me eased all of my concerns. I didn't know there was such a strong demand for a luxury hotel in Raleigh. High ranking business officials must go everywhere but Raleigh toget the accomadations to be expected in a capitol city that anchors a nationally recognized business park.

The care taken concerning this project is jaw dropping. Two key factors will make the city bite. No city money requested or necessary (actually all funding is already available) and the voluminous project will generate millions in city taxes.

Such care has been put in to this project. Instead of 15 ft floors (typical for any office building) the floors will be 8.5 feet. The first floor will be elevated. Plus, the surrounding residents were heavily involved. The developer closely followed the Raleigh Comprehensive Plan. This plan devised by William Christmas in 1792 has been appended and revised over the years and now calls for "tall distinctive buildings" in areas like Crabtree and North Hills.

As of now expect construction to being in a few months (1st quarter 06)

[NCMike1981]

I think it would be cool if Bloomingdale's came to Crabtree but I thought the plan to subdivide the old Lord & Taylor space was only months away from being put into motion. Maybe that's just a back-up plan. I'd much rather keep a fourth anchor to the mall, instead of just having Sears, Belks and Hechts/Macy's.

[StevenRocks]

I think it would be cool if Bloomingdale's came to Crabtree but I thought the plan to subdivide the old Lord & Taylor space was only months away from being put into motion. Maybe that's just a back-up plan. I'd much rather keep a fourth anchor to the mall, instead of just having Sears, Belks and Hechts/Macy's.

The problem with the streetscape plan at Crabtree is that it's on an unappealing, largely invisible side of the mall. If they wanted to work, it would need to be in either of the other three anchor spots for the visbility factor. That spot in the back needs a department store. Bloomingdale's could be just the thing.

[orulz]

The problem with the streetscape plan at Crabtree is that it's on an unappealing, largely invisible side of the mall. If they wanted to work, it would need to be in either of the other three anchor spots for the visbility factor. That spot in the back needs a department store. Bloomingdale's could be just the thing.

I think any "Streets at Crabtree" project should go on top of the parking deck in front of the mall and include both P.F. Chang's and Cheesecake Factory. The mall wouldn't lose too many parking spaces, and the top floor of that deck is essentially level with Glenwood Avenue and the upper floor of the mall, so from a isibility standpoint it's perfect. Wouldn't it be cool to look at the mall from the entrance off of Glenwood and see shops lining the entrance?

Perhaps it's important to some mallgoers for there to be a sea of cars parked in front of a mall - makes it look more popular, or something, But I think parking lots and decks are ugly - necessary evils that is best when unseen. If they could replace the upper level of parking with shops and restaurants then I think the mall could be much more inviting. Not to mention that I'd rather see something approximating a street or a plaza than just a parking lot when dining outdoors at Cheesecake Factory. Something like Southpoint or North Hills would be great. Cheesecake Factory's facade should be visible in some way from the road (that's the most distinctive part of the mall's facade, after all), but it can probably be done! This would go a long way towards urbanizing the un-urbanizable Crabtree Valley area.

The parking deck probably isn't built to support all that weight so it might be impossible, but at least it's worth a thought.

[StevenRocks]

Actually, you're on to something, orulz. Claiming the space on top of the Glenwood Avenue deck would actually be quite nice and it would allow the mall's really awful front facade to be covered and improved. I also agree than any plan of that sort should make the Cheesecake Factory's facade visible.

The parking deck could be reinforced easily, though the weight difference between the cars and bulidings would be minimal to moderate.

[orulz]

Here's a quick diagram of my idea. What do you think?

Sears would have to realign its entrance so it would be on alignment with the "Street". Some of the blanker sections of the mall building's facade would have to be dressed up to be a little more friendly. Maybe some display windows, fountains, and other plaza-like amenities.

I propose a pedestrian bridge over Glenwood that ties in with a second-floor patio on one of the new buildings on top of the parking deck. There would also be a wide sidewalk along both sides of Glenwood. Realistically, a pedestrian entrance into the building from Glenwood would be pointless, but maybe display windows along the road would make for a nicer environment.

Obviously this idea would bring more retail to the mall but cost quite a few parking spaces. As much as I wish the parking spaces wouldn't be missed, the fact is that the life-blood of crabtree is and will be for the forseeable future, people who drive there. So, perhaps the new buildings could have interior parking decks, or Maybe Bares and Noble / Toys R Us / etc. could relocate to one of the new buildings and have some more parking spaces built where that building currently stands.

I really don't know what could be done with that space on the deck by the ramp. Maybe that could be the "plaza", or perhaps accessible parking. But at any rate, leaving it open would render the Cheescake Factory visible from Glenwood, so all is well. P.F. Chang's is a bit harder, but their facade isn't nearly as impressive.

Anyway, this is just one possible way to go about "building out" Crabtree Valley Mall into a more urban mall without demolishing any of the anchor space. There are a practically infinite number of options, none of them cheap, but probably worthwhile in the long run if the densification of this area picks up steam.

[MR-2]

What's the feasibility of adding a third floor to all of the 2-floor areas of Crabtree? Can the structure withstand that?

[dmccall]

I like your thinking, but I like my plan better because by demolishing the plaza, a new large parking deck with the "Street" could go on top and be much more easily accessed.

Perhaps a Bloomies could go as a free-standing anchor at the Blue Ridge Road end of the "street".

[Justin6882]

here's the link

Merger could bring Bloomingdales

[willrusso]

I would LOVE to see the Triangle get a Bloomingdale's or Macy's.

[JunktionFET]

Crabtree Valley Mall looks like it's about to see some incredible opportunities... Not only will it be the premier shopping mall in Raleigh, but will be the center of a new micro-urban center outside of downtown--much like North Hills but on a larger scale.

If development continues like this, Glenwood Ave may become the focus of a fixed guideway transit corridor in the future. Wouldn't that be cool?

[dmccall]

Glen-Tree is on the agenda for the Planning Commission meeting tomorrow (10/25/05). The open session begins at 10pm. The first item will be the Convention Marriott, but the second item is Glen-Tree. Be there or be square. Wait make that be there or watch it on TWC channel 11. (I'm not sure if it will be carried live or replayed Tue night.)

[paletexan]

Glen-Tree is on the agenda for the Planning Commission meeting tomorrow (10/25/05). The open session begins at 10pm. The first item will be the Convention Marriott, but the second item is Glen-Tree. Be there or be square. Wait make that be there or watch it on TWC channel 11. (I'm not sure if it will be carried live or replayed Tue night.)

This is going to be better than desperate housewives

[StevenRocks]

Orulz's plan could work. The actual building density would be greater than the diagram suggests, and additional decks could be added for parking, both on top of the existing rear decks and the Conveinence Center, and also in the surface lot between Sears and Hecht's.

The mall actually has a surplus of parking, but the front deck along Glenwood is the one everybody uses, so it tends to be overutilized at the expense of the back decks, which are empty 95% of the time.

I like your thinking, dmccall, but placing Bloomingdale's that far away from the rest of what is already a rather long mall wouldn't do anyone any good except for the stores immediately surrounding it.

[Damien]

Agreed. The only time I have seen the back decks full, or partially full was around the Christmas shopping season. Even then you can usually find a spot. It's nice to see the Crabtree Valley area getting some new development. It looked as though Crabtree was on the decline with the building of malls with upscale anchors like Southpoint and Triangle, and the renovation of North Hills. But now it seems that Crabtree will be able to hold its own. I think Bloomingdales would be a welcome addition. Now if we could get a Neiman Marcus and H&M that would be great, but if Bloomies comes to Crabtree I dont think the area could really handle anymore upscale dept. stores for a couple years.

[mer-ceel]

The best comparison for Glentree is the 30 + story Sheraton Hotel next to the Four Seasons Mall in Greensboro. The project has been a commercial success and spawned growth around the mall. The Sheraton Hotel is the tallest structure visible from the highway and no one has had any problems with it.

The downtown Marriott Hotel is being subsidized to the tune of $20,000,000 by us the tax payers..... This should be indication enough why Glen Tree does not want to be in Downtown Raleigh. The Glen Tree Project is privately funded and does not get any public money.

A careful study of the Comprehensive Planning Guide put out by the City of Raleigh will explain that the Glen Tree project is in a "CITY FOCUS AREA". The plan calls for tall buildings and building with distinct architect to be in this area. In fact the plan calls for the tallest buildings to be in the City Focus Area. Other designated CITY FOCUS AREAS are Cameron Village, North Hills, Mini City and the Triangle Town Center.