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Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree


durham_rtp

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The three most important things for real estate is location, location, and location. Soleil is couring out of town clients because locals know the location isn't all that. Its proximity to the RBC Center, Museum of Art, RTP and Crabtree makes it an ideal place for a hotel, but not high end condos.

In the WRAL message board discussion of the story posted by ChiefJoJo, some people posted saying "it's close to everything, a ten minute drive to downtown, the airport (wrong), RBC Center (umm, ok), and North Hills (maybe, depends the time of day)". Yet they fail to mention that it is a ten minute walk to nowhere other than Crabtree.

Is this enough for people willing to pay double the $300/sq ft downtown market rate? Probably not. Is it enough for people wanting to invest as little as possible in the hopes of flipping units? Yep.

For being a slam-dunk, can't miss deal, why has it taken 16 months from council approval to today and not have enough units sold? Or if they are sold, then why hasn't construction started, or at least permits filed with the city? Why are they only now testing the ground to see if it can support the structure they want to build there?

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This probably bears another look:

Update on Soleil Center Project.

Despite all the negative talk, the Project is moving along just fine. We are still scheduled for a late 2008/early 2009 opening.

Because of the iconic design and specialty curtain wall system, we have had to jump through many hoops before the structural engineers could sign off on the core design of the building. It took us an extra 6 months to conduct various geo-seismic studies. The quality of bed rock was not the same everywhere on the foot print of the building. As a result we had to test drill every column location. Good news is that we have very good data to move forward with the design. We have also just completed the wind tunnel studies required for a high rise structure like ours. Since the building twist and turns at every angle you can imagine the complexity in the structural design process. There were only a couple of Companies capable of engineering and installing the unique curtain wall system designed for the tower. These companies had no capacity for new work until 2007-2008. We have now secured commitment from the leading company in the US for our job and the process is well under way.

We have also finished the value engineering process. We had an option to lower the height of the tower but chose not do so. The room count of the hotel has increased from 264 to 290. We have 49 condos. Floors 39 thru 42 have one condo unit per floor. Floors 30 thru 38 have two condos per floor. Floors 21 thru 29 have three units per floor. The Pool and the Reebok Fitness center are on the 18th and 19th floor, and the Heavenly Spa is on the 8th floor. During our value engineering phase we were also able to add more meeting and breakout space for the conference center.

We have over 200 wait listed reservations for 49 units. Unfortunately we cannot advertise their names. Most of our prospects are highly placed individuals and very successful professionals. Although it is true that the housing market has softened, but the Carolinas are still doing well. Our project in particular has no competition in it's class. What we are offering is a lifestyle not just another Condo - Home? We have appointed YSU homes to market our Residences. We are spending in excess of $500,000 to construct the state of the art Sales and Marketing office. Our Sales Center is scheduled to open in early February.

Thank you all for your support and enthusiasm for our project. We could have chosen to build two brick buildings and laughed all the way to our bank, instead we chose to create a green, eco friendly, iconic structure for our great city. We are setting tone for a new era of development that is respectful of the mother nature.

DICKY S. WALIA

PRINCIPAL

SOLEIL GROUP

So, I think some of the delays are perhaps due to the issues that Mr Walia and Mitchell Silver mentioned in the interview. I'd say the structural engineering work above counts as a "very complex project."

As much as I think this project sends the wrong message from a city planning perspective, is in the "wrong" place, and may not work in this marketplace... a part of me does understand that the original intent was to renovate the old hotel (Sheraton?) previously on the site, and based on the fact that was not feasible, they wanted to develop something better, and I give Soleil Group credit for that. If they build 290 hotel rooms and 49 condos, it's still probably has about the same traffic or community impact as the older hotel did (minus polarizing but subjective height element), and there is something to the idea if they can pull it off, why not? I still don't like the height of the building in that location, but I do like the green design elements and the building's form.

I think since late 2005 when it was approved, I've just resigned myself to the idea that it's going up regardless of what I think.

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I am not ashamed to say that I love ths project if for nothing more than the way will change the scale of the mall area and finally give Raleigh an element common in bigger cities.

Malls in most major cities are surrounded by luxury residential highrises. Atlanta by now probably has more than 100, and their popularity shows that there are many who love the thought of high-rise living in a more suburban setting. Let's not forget the mall and its shopping/dining options are somewhat desirable to some people.

Also let's also not forget that this to be a nice hotel, which until now the lack of was embarassing for Raleigh, therefore being located by the mall very desirable.

So many negatve comments posted on WRAL.com about this project, and I'm like with only 49 resdential units, the merits of these units r being debated too much. I envison that a wealthy,fur-wearing middle-aged woman would be a typical tenant.

What is odd is how large some of the units are. I wouldn't think anyone interested in high-rise living would want 6,000sf to have to tend to.

And don't kill me...all you downtown supporters...but... though all for DT Raleigh getting bigger and better in every way, I personally wouldn't want to live immediately downtown totally surrounded by concrete, and would rather be somewhat integrated with NC's main attraction which is a tree-filled landscape. And while I support all of the infill and denser growth visions for Raleigh, including the Downtown area, I feel that some here argue too strongly that everything proect be immersed in a downtown atmosphere. First off Downtown Raleigh is kinda depressing to me, and secondly some argue for downtown development so adamantly that I don't understand why aren't living anywhere from Richmond to Boston, or even Atlanta or Charlotte.

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There are a few facts that need to be iterated:

  • A high end hotel is desperately needed near Crabtree.
  • New development that has architectural merit is needed in the Crabtree focus area to keep it from becoming blighted. If you doubt me, let's talk about Oak Park Shopping Center, Townridge Square, Pleasant Valley Promenade, and CompUSA. The area is showing signs of real estate sickness ala inner Capital Blvd. in the late 70s.
  • The OTB condo market is a different market than ITB
  • People who live in freakin Hayes-Barton are not even "a 10-minute walk" from anything, too. Everyone who lives north of Wade Avenue gets in their car to get around - just like 99% of America; whether they live in a $400/sq foot house or on the 4th floor of a condo building (that doesn't sit on top of a hotel)

All this story is, is a reporter who got feathers ruffled when the mayor made a slanted, downtownist, remark. (he really does not care one iota about developments occurring outside of downtown. Look at the acres and acres that have been clear-cut while he's in office, yet he promised to put an end to this when we originally ran for the office). I won't go so far to say that Meeker is out to chop the knees of the demand for Soleil condos (which happen to sit on top of a tall, desperately needed hotel), but let's face it, his comments sure reflect that intent.

They went to Mitch Silver (who is a bit more in touch with the development process, I'd say), and he expressed absolutely no doubt about the project.

Of the top of my head, I can only remember 3 times in my lifetime that Crabtree flooded to the point of roads being impassible for more than a couple of hours: 1974, Fran, Alberto. These happen to be the largest 24hour rainfalls on record in the area. Anyone know of any others? Seems like 3 times in 35 or so years sure isn't much to crow about.

Maybe these guys should just build this project across from Triangle Town Center instead.

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I am not ashamed to say that I love ths project if for nothing more than the way will change the scale of the mall area and finally give Raleigh an element common in bigger cities.

Malls in most major cities are surrounded by luxury residential highrises. Atlanta by now probably has more than 100, and their popularity shows that there are many who love the thought of high-rise living in a more suburban setting. Let's not forget the mall and its shopping/dining options are somewhat desirable to some people.

Just because it's done in Atlanta doesn't make it a good idea. In fact, most urban development in Atlanta is a complete disaster. Luxury skyscrapers next to suburban malls are a prime example of such mistakes. The building typology (urban, supertall) is completely mismatched to the context (auto-dependent, suburban). I've explained the problems with suburban skyscrapers in this thread in the Triad Forum.

Even if you doubled the height of Soleil, you wouldn't markedly change the scale of the Crabtree area, because scale is horizontal as well as vertical. To do that, you must redesign the street network and create fine-grained blocks instead of large, single-use pods.

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The idea that people who argue for downtown development should only live in ceratain cities is crazy. This is Urban *Planet* not Urban "Northeast US and a few other metro areas".

Downtown Atlanta was unsafe until the 1996 Olympics, and even after then, still had a high crime stigma. Atlanta also has enough people with money to afford the units in the luxury high rises. "Next to mall" locations were chosen because the high volume assocaited with shopping centers gives a perceived sense of safety.

Unlike Soleil, people weren't sold on their houses in Hayes-Barton because they were in "mid-town". When many of the houses were built, they *were* within a ten minute walk of the street car line. And several grocery stores (including the current location of the Rialto). Piggly Wiggly offered groceries until the mid-late 90s. Even today, there is still a drug store with some groceries, NOFO has some grocery elemetns, several restaurants, and a movie theater. Proximity to Carolina Country Club, downtown, and North Hills is also a strong draw.

People north of Wade Ave were not sold on being in the middle of anything. Though there are some pockets, like around Ridgewood, Lake Boone, etc. where they can walk to a grocery store.

How successful was the old hotel at that site? Not very, it was sold at a loss. If Kidds Hill (the plaza and the hill itself), Circuit City, and the north side of Glenwood were built to Soleil I&II density, the road network will surrender all year, as opposed to only during the Christmas season. How is that good planning?

How many people who buy multi-million dollar condos want to "wait a couple of hours" before Edwards Mill/Creedmoor will be passable? Zero.

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There are a few facts that need to be iterated:
  • A high end hotel is desperately needed near Crabtree.
  • New development that has architectural merit is needed in the Crabtree focus area to keep it from becoming blighted. If you doubt me, let's talk about Oak Park Shopping Center, Townridge Square, Pleasant Valley Promenade, and CompUSA. The area is showing signs of real estate sickness ala inner Capital Blvd. in the late 70s.
  • The OTB condo market is a different market than ITB
  • People who live in freakin Hayes-Barton are not even "a 10-minute walk" from anything, too. Everyone who lives north of Wade Avenue gets in their car to get around - just like 99% of America; whether they live in a $400/sq foot house or on the 4th floor of a condo building (that doesn't sit on top of a hotel)

All this story is, is a reporter who got feathers ruffled when the mayor made a slanted, downtownist, remark. (he really does not care one iota about developments occurring outside of downtown. Look at the acres and acres that have been clear-cut while he's in office, yet he promised to put an end to this when we originally ran for the office). I won't go so far to say that Meeker is out to chop the knees of the demand for Soleil condos (which happen to sit on top of a tall, desperately needed hotel), but let's face it, his comments sure reflect that intent.

They went to Mitch Silver (who is a bit more in touch with the development process, I'd say), and he expressed absolutely no doubt about the project.

Of the top of my head, I can only remember 3 times in my lifetime that Crabtree flooded to the point of roads being impassible for more than a couple of hours: 1974, Fran, Alberto. These happen to be the largest 24hour rainfalls on record in the area. Anyone know of any others? Seems like 3 times in 35 or so years sure isn't much to crow about.

Maybe these guys should just build this project across from Triangle Town Center instead.

Agree with transit man and webguy on the ATL thing and the idea that DT supporters somehow need to live in bigger cities. That comment is completely off-base. How about I choose to live here, and want to make it a better more, liveable place, and I will do whatever I can to make that happen while thousands of others just sit by and get "it'll do."

Flood plain? Well, they are rebuilding on an existing site (old Sheraton) that's existing for 20+ years so the argument on flooding is weak to me. If that's true, let's just bulldoze the entire Mall area.

As for as Meeker goes, here's what was said:

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Also, Meeker voted for Soleil, so why would he be against it now? Actions speak louder than words. Fact: Soleil units are going for up to $600/sf and it's been almost 18 months since the approval, and there's been no sign of actual construction there. $600/sf is pretty much unheard of in this market, so given the delays, I think he's just questioning (like many of us) whether the project will work economically. I see no slanted comments.

I had an opportunity to speak with one of the sales agents last week and she indicated that the sales efforts were going very well. I have no doubt that these units will sale nicely. What the Soleil Center is offering is an urban, chic, and sophisticated lifestyle which many Triangle transplants from larger metros have been craving. Now if there were multiple of these types of towers going up around town, I would say that there is cause for concern, but with the number of condos being offered and a chance to live in this landmark structure, I know that there are people willing to invest the money. There definitely are many people in the area with the financial resources to do so.

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And while I support all of the infill and denser growth visions for Raleigh, including the Downtown area, I feel that some here argue too strongly that everything proect be immersed in a downtown atmosphere. First off Downtown Raleigh is kinda depressing to me, and secondly some argue for downtown development so adamantly that I don't understand why aren't living anywhere from Richmond to Boston, or even Atlanta or Charlotte.

My like of downtown/urban atmospheres is purely subjective. This does not at all discount the clear objective attributes of living in a downtown....I will not rehash them yet again. The only objective pluses for Soleil are proximity to shopping/mixed-use building and area, and density. These even have qualifiers as density can be bad without mass and pedetrian transit options to support it and proximity to regional shopping can be just as much of a depressing concrete jungle as a downtown. I agree with Jojo that pushing to make Raleigh a well developed, interesting and sustainable city is far nobler than moving to any other city.

On flooding, three major floods in thirty years? Sounds like the 10-year storm is enough to inundate the area. That is I am guessing 3 inches in 24 ours? Fran was about 9 inches in 24 hours and was around the 100 year frequency. Bottom line is building in flood plains is stupid. This is an obvious flood plain. If buffers are maintained I do not have a huge problem with a property owner taking the risk.

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What the Soleil Center is offering is an urban, chic, and sophisticated lifestyle which many Triangle transplants from larger metros have been craving.

I'm not going to argue with "chic" or "sophisticated", since those are subjective. I don't think there is anything chic or sophisticated inherited by living across the street from a mall and a big box electronics store with little else in the immediate vicinity, but that's just me. Investors are betting that architecture and valet parking/food/everything (and living across from a mall) is chic sophistication enough for 49 people (or businesses) to buy units. Out of town transplants are led to belive the area is greater than it really is to buy in, while the devleopers and investors are laughing all the way to the bank.

My (and some others') major problem with the project is that Soleil is selling the promise of an urban/uptown lifestyle while offering a suburban/midtown one.

I don't have a problem with shopping centers or hotels being in flood plains, since no one *lives* there. And unless global warming raises the oceans 50 feet or so, CVM always has a dry way out to the south on the bridge over Crabtree Valley Avenue toward Kidds Hill. Unless the topography is changed, Soleil does *not* have this luxury/escape route. Its entrance at Creedmoor south of Glenwood is the first to go under water, even when the eastern part of the mall stays dry.

I fail to see how building a structure that requires (more often than not single passenger) transportation is "respectful of the mother nature". Trying to get the city to pay to fix the flooding problem is giving mother nature the middle finger, not respecting it. Any LEED touches are offset by the massive parking deck, the vehicles it will hold, and the fossil fuels powering those vehicles. Continuing the theme of selling a promise while delivering something else.

Why is engineering the building itself taking 16 months? Did the money spent for architects to design the structure not spend any money or time on "hey, can we actually pull this off?" This was approved by the planning commision, city staff, and city council after these studies and a throurough review, right? If you can fly a balloon on a string to the building's height, who needs studies?

From the website, "there is one address, one location, one extraordinary place that can never be duplicated." I could say that about my house. Of course sales agents are going to say things are going well, because who wants to buy into a project that isn't?

Mayor Meeker is pro-downtown because he understands the benefits density brings. But he is even more pro-Raleigh, and the original proposal with no tax subsidies was a no-brainer. There is a difference between questioning the economic viability of a project and being against it. This is a distinction his opponents, developers, and the real estate lobby don't get. Or worse, they want to portray any questioning of a project's economic viablilty as being opposed to it, and therefore opposed to improving the city.

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According to the NOAA, Crabtree Creek crested at Glenwood Ave on the following days:

(1) 27.69 ft on 06/29/1973

(2) 23.77 ft on 06/14/2006

(3) 23.00 ft on 09/06/1996

(4) 22.50 ft on 02/02/1973

(5) 17.60 ft on 09/12/1996

(6) 16.79 ft on 07/24/1997

(7) 16.00 ft on 03/18/1973

Here's what they say happens at certain levels:

24.0 GLENWOOD AVENUE BECOMES IMPASSABLE

23.0 THE HIGHWAY 70 BRIDGE FLOODS. TRAVEL ON GLENWOOD AVENUE AND THE AREA AROUND CRABTREE VALLEY MALL IS SEVERELY HAMPERED

20.0 MOST PARKING LOTS AT CRABTREE VALLEY MALL FLOOD, INCLUDING THE EXXON GAS STATION

18.0 WATER ENTERS THE LOWER ENTRANCE TO HECHTS DEPARTMENT STORE

14.0 WATER COVERS THE LOWER PARKING LOT AT CRABTREE VALLEY MALL

Personally, I wouldn't park my car long term in an underground parking garage next to it.

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They must've found something really bad in the geology of the site. 43 floors doesn't just stand up on anything. You need to put it on really tough ground. Lower buildings, such as the old hotel (which wasn't really designed to last), might not have had those concerns.

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The fall line from the piedmont to the coastal plain cuts right through Wake County from northeast to southwest. Several big drops occur along Crabtree from Morrisville all the way to Lassiter Mill dam. I know of three mills that sat where the mall now does, the obvious Edwards Mill, the original Wake County homeless shelter from the 1840's operated one just upstream from there and a powder mill operated on House Creek where it joins Crabtree at the base of Kidds Hill. This rapid drop in elevation is a good indication of geologic jigsaw puzzles beneath the surface. Notice how steep the hill on Glenwood is from Circuit City heading towards Pleasant Valley? I am definitely not a geologist but I have always imagined this is precisely where the North American and African plates joined. The Brookhaven neighborhood nearby feels more like Buncombe County than Wake County to me. You never ever know what subsurface conditions will be like based on the surface conditions, but at a glance this layman would have wondered about the difficulties of drilling footings for such a huge building....

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Just because it's done in Atlanta doesn't make it a good idea. In fact, most urban development in Atlanta is a complete disaster. Luxury skyscrapers next to suburban malls are a prime example of such mistakes. The building typology (urban, supertall) is completely mismatched to the context (auto-dependent, suburban). I've explained the problems with suburban skyscrapers in this thread in the Triad Forum.

Even if you doubled the height of Soleil, you wouldn't markedly change the scale of the Crabtree area, because scale is horizontal as well as vertical. To do that, you must redesign the street network and create fine-grained blocks instead of large, single-use pods.

You're right that Atlanta's development patterns should not be emulated. I only wanted to point out the popularity and steady demand for the highrises in a more suburban setting. And while this housing model may not have all of the connectivity of a downtown location, it appeals to many homebuyers. Of course a city should encourage the "optimum" types of development, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the suburban highrise should be banned.

I disagree with "the building typology is completely mismatched to the context". One objective of smarter growth is the establishment of nodes of concentrated residential/shopping activity within a city. Crabtree is such a place. The mall is and always will make Crabtree a major destination in town.

As far as the auto-dependent aspect, unless you live in NYC or maybe one or two other cities, then you own, use, and need a car. There is absolutely nothing wrong with highrise living if you drive a car. I agree that highrises don't make sense stranded out n a field and of course the more ammenities within walking distance the better. The alternative to the residential units at Soleil would be 49 homes detached or clustered resulting in more land used, more runoff, contributing to sprawl.

"the building typology" of highrises- if absolutely inappropriate for a suburban setting, then you could argue that unless landlocked like Manhattan or San Francisco, that excessive height is inappropriate. With land in every direction, Charlotte doesn't need 60 story buildings. A skyline of Richmond's height would be more than adequate.

Good point about the "Scale" of the Crabtree area consisting of a lot more than height alone.

This project isn't great on many levels granted, but since the Crabtree isn't going anywhere, building up seems like a good thing for the area.

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If Soleil can find a way to connect pedestrians to the mall (and the other new developments behind the mall) so that not every trip by residents and hotel patrons involves a car it will be a success.

I think that idea is very feasible and with some creativity could be a very practical and beautiful asset to the area. I imagine a greenway that sort of defies the common standards....bridges across roads, cantaliever off of buildings and parking decks and lined with new shops, kind of like a walking street network.

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The greenway is indeed there and that's what Soleil will probably advertise as their "safe" pedestrian connection to the mall. The greenway provides a couple functional, though far from friendly, connections with the mall. They tend to dump pedestrians off where they have to walk across a circulation road or walk in from the back of a parking deck.

CCG003.jpg

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Yeah I know about that greenway, and that I totally ignored it (my bad) because I was thinking of a more functional walkway (not for general recreation) but with the intent of getting from certain places in the area. Maybe I'll think about it more and draw some plans.

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OK, I have been away from this site for a while and I tried to read some or most of this post on Soleil, but I would like to comment on Meeker's response. I will say I am a long term supporter of Meeker, I am friends with members of his campaign staff and even went to his election-loss party when he lost the mayor race when he was on City Council. I put a Meeker sign in my yard since the mid 90

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Another item, He could have cared less about the Hurricanes (actually told to me by some of his campaign people) until they won the Stanley Cup and he finally saw some light on what having a pro team in his city could do, especially when they win a championship....that after they were here for 8 years. Again, the only Pro team in the Triangle.

Personally I don't think that Meeker is as clueless and nonchalant as you make him sound. I read an article somewhere where he was pushing for the 4-star Westin hotel/Soleil center so that Raleigh could be more competitive when it comes to the hockey all-star game site selections. Seems to me that he is pro-Raleigh and not just pro-ITB.

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As far as I know, you might be right about his previous campaigns or his feelings on the Canes, but you are way off base on his positions on North Hills and Soleil. If you are talking about his position against the proposed TIF for NHills East, then (1) there are 3 other concilors that agree with him and (2) I totally agree with him and I'm from the area right next to the future NH East. TIF for a $75M parking deck is bad public policy, plain and simple. Oh, and Kane just revealed his plans for a new high-rise on Six Forks, so I think NHE will do just fine without a public handout. As far as Soleil Center, Meeker voted for it, so how anyone can say he's "almost torpedoed" those projects is beyond me.

Ok I agree maybe torpedoed is wrong comment and he did vote for it but for large developements, I did not feel his comments were overwhelming supportive. Would he make the same kind of comments about a project downtown like Blount Street or the convention center or even Site 1? I just don't think so. That was my point.

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