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Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree


durham_rtp

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1. It is in conflict with the comp plan.

2. The process by which development gets approved is by accident or design (the latter I believe), one that limits the ability of citizens to participate in decisionmaking...

  • How does adding dwellings on top of a hotel conflict with the comp plans assignment of this as an Urban Focus Area?
  • What modifications should be made to allow this to strictly follow the comp plan?
  • What number of days is ideal for the public to adequately allow citizens to participate?

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  • How does adding dwellings on top of a hotel conflict with the comp plans assignment of this as an Urban Focus Area?
  • What modifications should be made to allow this to strictly follow the comp plan?
  • What number of days is ideal for the public to adequately allow citizens to participate?

First, let me say that I appreciate the quality and directness of your questions.

I think a 42 story high rise belongs primarily in downtown, but if not, in one of the areas designated as "Regional Centers." If the zoning allows them in Urban Focus areas as well, perhaps that should be changed. My intention here is that if we are going to make certain places "centers," we ought to shape rules that drive development towards those centers to focus the intensity of development.

As for public involvement, I think a well-defined 60-day public process could work well for major projects. I'd be interested to see what you think of the following.

1. Preliminary work and review occurs between developer and city staff.

2. Day 1 of public process- site plan presented to City Council in draft format at an evening meeting. Developer takes questions from Council members. Council opens a public comment period, up to 30 minutes of comment from those who sign up, other comments may be submitted via email or letter.

3. Days 2 - 31. Developer receives comments from Advisory Boards, including Planning, Environment, Transportation, etc., either through advisory board regular meetings or electronic comments coordinated by Planning Staff. In the latter portion of this period, formal presentation of Site Plan to Planning Board for recommendation to City Council occurs. Evening meeting. Public comment opportunity at the beginning of the meeting.

4. Somewhere in Day 32 to 38 of public process, post Planning Board meeting, assuming plan is Recommended- developer holds "open house" on site plan that has been moved for recommendation to the City Council. Materials posted on City Website for review.

5. Day 60. Public comment period remains open via email, postage, phone through Day 60, the date of the next City Council meeting. City Council considers plan for approval on Day 60 at an evening meeting. Public comment up to 60 minutes allowed at the beginning of the meeting. Developer presents final site plan, takes questions from Council. Council votes to approve/deny site plan.

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I think there should be a cap placed on O&I 2 zoning -- 150 feet on throughfares, 200 feet in the established "centers of interest" and 300 feet in the central business district. Projects exceeding that would require a process not as "intense" as rezoning, but more than planning commission approval.

I like transitmans' 60 day approval process, but would include notification and submittal of paperwork (though I would prefer a presentation) to the CAC the project falls into during those first 30 days of review.

The public review clock doesn't start ticking when an article appears in the paper. Giving the public two weeks from the release of the planning commission's agenda to council approval is unprecedented. The public expects governement to scrutinize developments so they don't have to.

An earlier post does a better job than I ever will to explaining transitman's assertation that the project meets the letter of the law while completly ignoring the spirt of the law. This is being built on the parking structure not to keep the lobby and occupied floors out of the floodplain, but to squeeze the entire structure into land that was already upzoned to avoid the scrutiny and public hearings that would come with a rezoning case.

Sorry if I lose any non-sports minded people with this analogy, but the "why do people on an urban message board not root for this new skyscraper" argument is the the same as "why wouldn't any baseball fan not root for the Yankees." Supports will make the argument that the Soleil center/Yankees are flush with cash and represent the best their respective fields have to offer. While detractors point out that money shouldn't be the be-all-end-all, and how the Yankees/Soleil group's actions have messed up their economies. In baseball, players demand larger contracts and the price of hot dogs, popcorn, and cracker jack goes up. With the Soleil Center, land costs will go up too much to do anything, similar to the downtown Raleigh stagnation after one/two hannover and the Wachovia center.

Some neighbors were for it because they thought it offered a chance to move into the 21st century. And because the increase to their property value was worth more than added traffic. "I think it's going to be bad for congestion, but as far as the overall value of the area, I think it'll probably increase it," said Pittman, taking a break from dinner with his family Tuesday.

To win the nearby neighborhood over, they floated a balloon up to show the height and promised a "celeb chef restaurant". A restaurant that still does not have a name attached to it.

Two council members voted for it solely because of the money the development would bring in. They didn't want to discuss anythying with a multi-million dollar project at stake.

"Anybody who is willing to invest $90 million to $100 million of their own money is owed a lot of latitude," council member Philip Isley said. "The infrastructure is there. The roads are there: Lead Mine, Creedmoor, Glenwood." Even though Lead Mine on the other side of the mall.

"I'm not going to stand in the way," council member Mike Regan said. "Number one, it's not requiring any taxpayer money. Number two, it's going to create a lot of jobs to build the thing and a lot of jobs to staff it." Of course, the Soleil Group has publically stated that if North Hills East gets a TIF, they want one too.

Councilman Crowder and Mayor Meeker wanted to study the proposal before voting on it. Council member Thomas Crowder has called for putting the project before a council committee, and Mayor Charles Meeker said he wants to give the plans a thorough look -- either in committee or today.

"This is a potentially precedent-setting decision," Meeker said.

Also from that article, some neighbors were not happy about it. "In the nearby Brookhaven neighborhood, Barbara Quinby thinks Glen-Tree would make a poor neighbor, and a poor welcome mat to Raleigh."

Yet city council barely discussed the project before putting it to a vote:

Getting Soleil Center approved by a 7-1 City Council vote, with only about 20 minutes of discussion, surprised even their supporters.

From the same article, the developers had no problem trying to gain influence with a councilor seeking re-election until they were rejected:

They offered to sponsor Councilwoman Joyce Kekas' campaign kickoff -- she declined, and they agreed it would be wise on second thought -- but otherwise the developers stayed out of local races.

Why bother with other local races if you only needed the one vote?

My personal objection to building this in a flood plain are covered by the following quote from a story on tropical storm Alberto's impact:

But it will put luxury hotel guests, conventioneers and condominium residents in harm's way when floods hit, he said.

"That's when they'll call the city, and we'll go out there with boats and get them out," Senior said. "Or the people there can wait for the water to go down.

"The big worry is, what do you do if Crabtree Valley Mall catches fire during a flood like that? Or the Soleil Center?"

No one who stays in a Westin hotel or pays $1M+ for a condo is going to wait for the water to go down. The rest of the city will have to pay to rescue those stranded.

Also, the floodplain contains uneven bedrock. Will throwing four feet of dirt between the bedrock and 42 stories of a parking garage, hotel and condos help? We'll see. A small sinkhole opened up under the left northwest bound lane of Glenwood between the Crabtree Creek bridge and I-440 Monday night, another reason to keep development to a minimum in a floodplain, let alone making it a focus area.

After almost two years of marketing, they only have reservations for a third of the units -- 18 of 54 condos. If it wasn't for Westin's involvment, the market would have said loud and clear that this project isn't viable.

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Utilities required by highrises as opposed to tract homes on a per square foot (footprint) basis are actually much less. You essentially need the same right-of-way to sink a water main or sewer pipe for a downtown highrise as for a subdivision. The actual piping and conduits required may be bigger, but in terms of land used, it is more or less the same. Which means that more people and residences feeding into the same linear foot of pipe from a highrise than a tract home means much greater efficiency of use for the highrise. Highrise dwellers are also more economical in the use of energy. Elevators, especially, are a prime example. Elevators function much like a seesaw, a counterweight pulling against the weight of the elevator and its load, requiring a relatively small motor to actuate the motion and compensate for the weight differences. Not a big charge. On the other hand, a highrise apartment inhabited by two adults is likely to have an average of one to two lights on inside the dwelling at any given time (no reason for any more than that), while the average suburban home will have four to five (the kitchen, the laundry room, the den, the back porch, etc.). Water usage is way, way, way less in a condo than a tract home, what with no cars being washed in the driveway, and no lawns being watered three to four times a day. New York City, on a per capita basis is, and has been, the most energy and resource efficient city in America (except for maybe verbiage). Runoff from highrises is strictly controlled, and as often as not, partially treated by the time it hits the sewage main. A suburban home has direct runoff from the driveway, the roof, the lawn (with untold pesticides and fertilizers running directly into the storm drain). If indeed the main issue is with appearances and urban form, highrises are reviewed (with the disputed exception of Soleil Center!) with a fine tooth comb. Everything from aesthetics to traffic impact to light pollution is ostensibly measured. If a bad one gets through, you can blame your city's planning board and city council. On the other hand, it is oh so very easy to design and build an ugly tract home. And with very little oversight. And once it's built, it doesn't come down either. If a highrise condo gets built, you can at least be guaranteed that 50% of the prospective residents liked it enough to buy into it. With an ugly tract home, there's no guarantee that anybody at all liked it!

This is all well and true, and like I said, I would take a suburban highrise tower any day over an office park or a cavalcade of single family homes, by far. If by building Soleil, we are preventing the construction of some 60 McMansions, that's great.

Let's suppose the impossible happens, and the TTA rail is built. Jobs, concentrated in the universities, downtowns, and especially RTP. Proximity to RTP is one of the advertized 'features' of this project, as the higher-ups there are who it essentially caters to. Everywhere along the TTA line is connected to RTP. Crabtree isn't even remotely close to being on the line, at any planned stage of its construction. Even now, they're in an inconvenient spot for taking the TTA bus to RTP. So for the far-off future, roads will dictate the lives of everyone in Soleil, working, visiting, or living there.

That type of connectivity is no different from a typical suburban development. There are terms for this phenomenon that get tossed around, McCondos, vertical sprawl. That sort of thing.

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This is all well and true, and like I said, I would take a suburban highrise tower any day over an office park or a cavalcade of single family homes, by far. If by building Soleil, we are preventing the construction of some 60 McMansions, that's great.

Let's suppose the impossible happens, and the TTA rail is built. Jobs, concentrated in the universities, downtowns, and especially RTP. Proximity to RTP is one of the advertized 'features' of this project, as the higher-ups there are who it essentially caters to. Everywhere along the TTA line is connected to RTP. Crabtree isn't even remotely close to being on the line, at any planned stage of its construction. Even now, they're in an inconvenient spot for taking the TTA bus to RTP. So for the far-off future, roads will dictate the lives of everyone in Soleil, working, visiting, or living there.

I honestly don't know that Soleil would eliminate McMansions at all, since they cater to different markets. Condos such as Soleil are targeted toward empty nest couples and professional singles, who generally are away a lot (traveling or working) and don't have time for all of the John Deere action in the suburbs. I've lived in highrises (and enjoyed it thoroughly), and that certainly fit my profile at the time. At worst, McMansions are pure gluttony on the part of Yuppie and Boomer couples, excess even for young families. At best, they are an attempt to recover an investment in a rehabilitated property. If sufficiently "greened" I will cut a McMansion owner some slack (and I've seen some pretty decent ones here), but the majority are just big, and for little reason. The argument goes, and is usually associated with a teardown property (interestingly, the same argument Soleil gave for the size of its own project) that one, in order to recupe the demolition costs of the old house you have to build a bigger house with more floorspace and more value, and two, value is maximized by getting every bit of floorspace you can onto the footprint of a property (I guess the gardening thing got old over the years). I suspect that you will see quite a bit of this happening between Northside and Whitaker Mill soon if not now, and areas like Eastgate and Brentwood where the neighborhoods are still attractive from a commercial and locational standpoint, but the housing stock is generally way too small by present-day standards.

I don't think a high-density project (especially of this size) will ever be a great fit in any suburban locale, simply because suburban street systems were generally designed to move people through and not around. Local nodes of traffic (and as you pointed out, S -- Soleil is marketing itself as "accessable to RTP") usually put excessive pressure on the thoroughfares (call the locals "free radicals" just for fun... ;) ...). Poof! There goes any excess capacity you had left on Edwards Mill, most of which is brand-spanking new. High density does tend to work better in downtown areas, simply because the streetgrids were designed for local travel, and tend to handle volume better due to the simplicity, and the redundancy provided by parallel streets. 18th and 19th century planners didn't see people going very far in their daily affairs, and therefore designed accordingly. The streets were routine and uniform, and usually designed wide enough to turn around a horse team and carriage without having to back up. Those basic parameters serve our cities much better today than the typical suburban cobwebs. To wit, a 20th or 21st century planner sees you going at least 10 to 15 miles just to get to work and back home, and doesn't really expect you to have to turn the car around until you reach Durham or Rocky Mount, depending on your direction. The streets are built for fru-fru ambience and safety of children. In North Raleigh for example you have Millbrook, Sawmill, Lynn, and Strickland crossing the city east-to-west. Period. Uh...

If the cities had been sufficiently belligerent with developers about providing open space like they do now, the kids would have had playgrounds, and there wouldn't have been a need for dead-end cul-de-sacs to keep the kids safe on their bikes. Denver is a good case study for this. The city of Denver is by and large a grid or at least a semi-grid for its entirety. Meanwhile, some of the farther reaching suburbs of Douglas County look more like Eastern cities (hub and spoke) in street layout -- not based on need, but for this fru-fru element. Denver has parks-a-million, and neighborhood parks bigger than Pullen, therefore the city can stay loyal to the grid and keep traffic moving. At the same time, Castle Rock is demanding parks and greenway areas within their PUDs, but still they keep on with the Etch-a-Sketch street design "because buyers just love it!". Get a wreck at I-25 and Wolfensberger and the one other street northward out of town toward Denver -- Wilcox, which is also the main drag -- melts down instantaneously, everybody is pissed, and three hours late to work. Then they get pissed at the state for not giving them enough asphalt on I-25. And I get pissed at the dumb-ass Castle Rock homebuyer that still thinks traffic should work like a Swiss watch.

The same thing is at play in the Bay Area. Within San Francisco proper, traffic flows beautifully over that city's faithful grid -- even against everything Mother Nature has thrown at it: water, steep hills, marshes. Once you leave The City however, and enter the chaotic suburbs in any direction beyond Oakland and Berkeley (the bridges themselves are of finite capacity and a logical impediment, therefore don't apply here) the real headaches start. (Legend has it that one local smartass in Contra Costa County tried to argue against imprisonment for DUI due to time already served. The argument was that he had "already served three years of incarceration while driving (his own) car around Walnut Creek, wrongfully imprisoned at the evil hands of Caltrans". Hmmm. I never heard of the verdict.)

Part of the problem that I have argued over on the transit blog is that density doesn't always go where you want it. It goes where the transportation supply is. Because of the market pressure (expressed as land values), where you get a confluence of a Beltline, an Edwards Mill, a Lead Mine, a Glenwood, and a Creedmoor, with some 200,000 cars a day between them, like it or not you'll probably get a project the size of Soleil at some point, if not the same profile. That is why I have argued, ad nauseum, that it is imperative to get commuter rail underway now -- whether it makes sense now or not -- in order to sculpt the transport landscape around that rail corridor to be hospitable to high-density in the future, so that it can take the pressure off of places like the Beltline, Glenwood, I-40, Falls of the Neuse, whereever. It won't eliminate that pressure, but like water, money follows the path of least resistance. If a developer can build his or her egocentric Babelian masterpiece in a transit corridor that has been modified for high volume, in recycled urban settings, then why would s/he want to fight with the whole d@mn world to get one put in sooner at say, Blue Ridge Rd. and Wade Ave.? Political fights and delays cost money, and God forbid investors and REITs should lose money.

Wherever there is a tree (freeways and high-volume streets) there is shade (traffic). And wherever there is shade and water (money) you will get a mushroom. Like it or not. The moral of this story -- start planting trees where you really want the mushrooms to grow.

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My critiques of Soleil have always been twofold:

1. It is in conflict with the comp plan. Thomas Crowder, who most people on this board consider to be one of the most knowledgable Council members on planning issues, agrees with me. The approval of something like this weakens the comp plan, weakening good planning in Raleigh.

For the Record, I don't. I think he is just a little short of a "roadblock so he can be noticed" as Mike Regan was. I will say "he thinks he is smarter than the others." He is not as bad as he use to be but let him go on about being a long term Raleigh-ite and how he is an architect. (not by degree) and watch the other CC members roll their eyes like "here we go again !!!!"

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With the weak U.S. dollar (link goes to Slate article), it might be a better idea to try to sell the condo units to the rest of the world moreso than existing Triangle residents.

The raido and print ad buys seem to be more of a "hey we're still going to build it" than "don't you want a view of the Glenwood corridor?"

The website tries to position the area as "midtown", which has a different connotation to outsiders than locals. Over the last almost two years, surely they could find more than 18 European, Asian, or northeast US folks with more money than sense that would be attracted to the area's climate, culture, and the skyscraper life? Or is that market (and local empty nesters) more attracted to buildings like West, 222, RBC Plaza, the Quorum Center, etc.? Has the market for the Heavenly bed/spa/pool/bar/food/gym been overestimated?

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With the weak U.S. dollar (link goes to Slate article), it might be a better idea to try to sell the condo units to the rest of the world moreso than existing Triangle residents.

The raido and print ad buys seem to be more of a "hey we're still going to build it" than "don't you want a view of the Glenwood corridor?"

The website tries to position the area as "midtown", which has a different connotation to outsiders than locals. Over the last almost two years, surely they could find more than 18 European, Asian, or northeast US folks with more money than sense that would be attracted to the area's climate, culture, and the skyscraper life? Or is that market (and local empty nesters) more attracted to buildings like West, 222, RBC Plaza, the Quorum Center, etc.? Has the market for the Heavenly bed/spa/pool/bar/food/gym been overestimated?

I see the SC as more upscale, so especially in a city like Raleigh, that market is limited, but here. At $1Mplus for the cheapest unit, the crowd is different than the other properties. Why would a wealthy empty nester couple want to move to West or 222? Relive their college years? Hang out with the twenty---> thirty year olds? Party like it's 1999? I don't think so.

Looking for upscale people who want access to hotel high end services with no yard and a decent view. Easily accessible to the airport and the interstate.

Also, If there is no established "midtown" which I don't think the boundaries have been established, then North Hills qualifies just as much as Crabtree.

JMHO

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I see the SC as more upscale, so especially in a city like Raleigh, that market is limited, but here. At $1Mplus for the cheapest unit, the crowd is different than the other properties. Why would a wealthy empty nester couple want to move to West or 222? Relive their college years? Hang out with the twenty---> thirty year olds? Party like it's 1999? I don't think so.

Looking for upscale people who want access to hotel high end services with no yard and a decent view. Easily accessible to the airport and the interstate.

What are the empty nesters' options if they don't want to eat at (or take friends to) the "signature restaurant" in Soleil? PF Changs, Cheesecake factory, and the other restaurants above the new part of the deck. There might be something in place of the old Steak and Ale and Pizza Hut, but there is no guarantee what will go there. Empty nester "nightlife" activities like the symphony, plays, jazz bars, etc.? Drive downtown.

At West or 222, restaurant wise they have Second Empire, 42nd Street Oyster Bar, Vin, Sullivans, Bogarts, and possibly a Mortons. With more possibly on the way. With Raleigh Memorial Auditorium, Amra's, Sullivans's bar, and Mosaic nearby for a night out and/or drinks. They don't have to party with the just out of college types at any of those places.

There is the same "no yard and decent view" downtown, depending on the resident's definition of decent view. Downtown is as close to the interstate (40) as Soleil. And there isn't holiday shopping traffic to contend with for the last month and a half of the year. There might be some people that value being 10 minutes closer to the airport and RBC center than everything else, but that market has yet to vote with their dollars at Soleil yet.

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What are the empty nesters' options if they don't want to eat at (or take friends to) the "signature restaurant" in Soleil? PF Changs, Cheesecake factory, and the other restaurants above the new part of the deck. There might be something in place of the old Steak and Ale and Pizza Hut, but there is no guarantee what will go there. Empty nester "nightlife" activities like the symphony, plays, jazz bars, etc.? Drive downtown.

At West or 222, restaurant wise they have Second Empire, 42nd Street Oyster Bar, Vin, Sullivans, Bogarts, and possibly a Mortons. With more possibly on the way. With Raleigh Memorial Auditorium, Amra's, Sullivans's bar, and Mosaic nearby for a night out and/or drinks. They don't have to party with the just out of college types at any of those places.

There is the same "no yard and decent view" downtown, depending on the resident's definition of decent view. Downtown is as close to the interstate (40) as Soleil. And there isn't holiday shopping traffic to contend with for the last month and a half of the year. There might be some people that value being 10 minutes closer to the airport and RBC center than everything else, but that market has yet to vote with their dollars at Soleil yet.

But if they are living in North Ridge, Country Club Hills, Blenhiem, White Oak Road or Cary today, they have to get into their cars today so it is no different. They drive where ever today.

I can see some empty nesters moving DT, but this is high end stuff at Soleil and are really offering things that DT condos don't. i.e..... Full floor condos, services through Weston, etc. and more importantly, live around people of their lifestyle as they have lived the last 40 years. I still say that 90% of the population of Raleigh don't want to live DT. That is just the way it is. And I don't think all of the potential buyers in Soleil want to share a building/floor with people who could be working with them ....or looking for places to party. It is a different target market.

JMHO

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But if they are living in North Ridge, Country Club Hills, Blenhiem, White Oak Road or Cary today, they have to get into their cars today so it is no different. They drive where ever today.

I can see some empty nesters moving DT, but this is high end stuff at Soleil and are really offering things that DT condos don't. i.e..... Full floor condos, services through Weston, etc. and more importantly, live around people of their lifestyle as they have lived the last 40 years. I still say that 90% of the population of Raleigh don't want to live DT. That is just the way it is. And I don't think all of the potential buyers in Soleil want to share a building/floor with people who could be working with them ....or looking for places to party. It is a different target market.

JMHO

i agree with everything you said. i also want downtown to flourish as well. and from the ending of 'Trading Places' when they are debating whether to have the lobster or the cracked crab, i ask, 'can't we have both?'

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i agree with everything you said. i also want downtown to flourish as well. and from the ending of 'Trading Places' when they are debating whether to have the lobster or the cracked crab, i ask, 'can't we have both?'
I agree with your comments 100%. I have the same insight regarding this EXCELLENT project and downtown Raleigh's growth,we can have both.
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Well, let's not get carried away too much with who's going to buy the condos at the SC. Remember that Crabtree was already down a hotel, and since the Crabtree area services that segment of the airport market that doesn't like the no-frills, semi-rural environment that, say, a Sheraton Imperial provides, then Crabtree not having a marquee hotel is a pretty big deal. The condos were essentially added in as a sweetener.

Let's play some more "fun with math", shall we?

290 hotel rooms at oh, $200 a night (it'll probably be more on average) = $58,000 per night (full occupancy)

Figure on a 75% occupancy rate (regionwide it's around 63% on average, but that includes every budget lodge in town, too)

$58,000 x .75 = $43,500 room revenue per night

$43,500 x 365 days = $15,877,500 per year

$15,877,500 x 30 year bond or mortgage period = $476,325,000

At full occupancy the numbers are these:

$58,000 x 365 days = $21,170,000 per year

$21,170,000 x 30 years = $635,100,000

Speaking for myself, I think it'll probably land somewhere between those two figures, more likely over, as hotel rates creep upward through the years, and as I suspect, the given $200 a night is lowball anyway.

Now, I know they've gotta pay the help and the day-to-days out of that figure too, but come on! At a $100M construction outlay, that still gives them plenty of breathing room, even if they didn't sell the first condo, just from the operation of the hotel. And remember that the hotel will generate lots of in-house income from everything, restaurants to flower and gift shops, soda machines to shoeshine stands. Anybody checked the rental rates for a conference room lately?

Whether you like Soleil or not, you've got to admit that this was one of the craftiest real estate plays ever in those parts. The condos are there because Soleil was able to exploit the O&I2 zoning, and if you look at it from the city's perspective, why wouldn't they play along (politics aside)? Add 49 condos, at an average of $2,000,000 apiece, and they've just created $98,000,000 more real estate value. The hotel feeds the lodging and sales taxes, and the condos feed the property tax:

Avg. $2,000,000 assessment/100 = $20,000 x 1.069 (Raleigh/Wake tax rate) = $21,380 x 49 units = $1,047,620 per year (nothing to sneeze at)

That's about $32 million in bonding room they just created out of the general fund over 30 years (for whatever).

I think that you're going to see slow sales up front for Soleil's condos, and in a "flat Earth market" such as the Triangle has been until very recently, that's not unusual. Until people can actually "see, feel, taste" what kind of ammenities they will actually have from buying at Soleil, I doubt there are many who will plunk down a quarter or half million to wait and see. I don't like the comparisons of Soleil to downtown or Glenwood South, because it's a totally different product. Soleil does have the benefit of being closer to the airport, and everything you could need on a day-to-day basis is right there either within the hotel, or across the street at Crabtree. It's still pretty hard to find a nice shirt downtown, and impossible at Glenwood South for all their marvels. Some people are busy enough that even a jaunt to Cameron Village from a downtown or Glenwood South condo is too time compressing.

If Soleil contributes enough to provide caretaking funds for the Crabtree neighborhood, I would forgive it of all of it's sins as a shadowmaker. Between the lodging tax receipts and the enhanced property taxes, I would demand that the city earmark at least some of those funds for the restoration of the Crabtree Creek basin, ideally for the kind of "Creekwalk" project that I had talked about. If that happens, I don't see any reason why Soleil would be a detractor instead of an enabler for that community.

The Triangle is a prototype for the cellular metropolis concept. Old-style metropolitan areas with a single big-city core are somewhat old-school. That model has largely been played out already. Metropoli that orbit multiple civic stars is more common now among the up-and coming metros. The Bay Area was probably the first and most prominent, followed by others such as the Puget Sound area, and to some extent Miami/Ft. Lauderdale (Baltimore and Washington are both big cities that just sort of fused together). There really aren't very many models for the Triangle to emulate, but from the ones that I have seen, I can tell you that you can expect dense nodes to pop in quite a few places. Raleigh alone has several good candidates for a "Midtown" area -- in fact, there may end up being more than one. Crabtree, North Hills, Highwoods -- all are good candidates. Probably the surprising one is the Fairgrounds area, which has several crucial ingredients already: the RBC Center, Westchase, the NCMoA, Rex (with a bunch more stuff coming), a big inventory of land that NCSU could parcel off, and that alltime winner in deal sealers, a location close to an international airport. If transit does get put into place there, you'll soon be craning your neck between Wade Ave. & Western Blvd. along Blue Ridge too.

DTR will get its share, don't worry. Especially once all the dots get connected. Even if it sticks out like a sore thumb for now, Soleil I think is a good catalyst. For Raleigh to stay healthy, all the parts need to thrive, even Southeast. Say what you will about Atlanta's traffic, and what a "poor model Atlanta is to follow", the Buckheads and the Dunwoodys handle many of the backoffice tasks that Five Points just can't. Underground Atlanta, sure. Lenox Square? I don't think so. If Crabtree = the new Raleigh "Buckhead", then you're in luck. The problem that Atlanta has is that once you leave the city, the streets diminish in capacity and efficacy. Most of metropolitan Atlanta's problems stem from outside the 285 Mall Wall, just like they do outside of Raleigh's Beltline. Once you get into Spaghettivilles such as Roswell and Marietta, then you get problems. The difference is that unlike Atlanta, Raleigh has Durham's own grid to absorb traffic on the "other side". Does that mean that the Triangle's traffic will be problem-free? Certainly not. What it says is that projects like Soleil don't in and of themselves create regional traffic problems. The lack of planning a fluid street infrastructure around them does. The worst thing you could possibly do is try and cram every single tall building into one designated space, like DT Raleigh. Then you would have the same problem that Atlanta has. Everybody trying to lace themselves in and out of 285, or trying to get downtown, or to an airport on the opposite side of the metropolis from all of the action. Neither Raleigh or Durham have that problem. Everything's in the middle. Where it should be.

Again guys, way different animal, so don't get too wrapped around the axle about Soleil, or other dense projects "leaking out". After all, the whole idea behind a Soleil Center is that people have to drive less. When Joe and Mary come to visit Raleigh and stay at Soleil, they may have their conference at Soleil itself, or a charter bus hired to take them downtown to the Convention Center. When they return, they can eat, drink, and entertain themselves within Soleil, or they can walk to Crabtree. The car can stay put. The same thing would happen downtown, except that for now there isn't that great a selection of venues yet, and Glenwood South is too far a walk for most people (especially for rural residents who are uncomfortable walking in urban environments, of which there are many). And no viable transit options yet in DTR.

And for those who worry that Soleil has somehow stolen something from downtown Raleigh, I'll be happy to send you a few pictures from my neck of the woods. The whole landscape is peppered with tall buildings, and our downtown is just fine, thank you.

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To be honest, and despite all of the reservations, I actually think that having the Soleil Center in the Crabtree area vs. downtown is an excellent idea and a brilliant strategic move. If this were downtown, it would just be another tower in the mix of several towers; although it would be the nicest looking.

By having it where it will be, we are creating an iconic structure that will stand out and will represent Raleigh for many who frequent these types of hotels. When hotel visitors book rooms at the Raleigh Westin, they will realize that they are not only getting a room at just another Westin hotel, but they will be staying in a special place. The most important thing is, long after they have checked out of that hotel and gone home, when they think of or hear of Raleigh, one of the first things that will come to mind is that interesting and beautiful structure sitting at the edge of a creek that we will come to know as the Soleil Center. Believe me, iconic hotels are never to be underestimated. I can say this from firsthand experience.

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I find it amusing to see the anger that the location of Soleil creates for some on this forum. I wonder how much of it is solely the location instead of the location factored in with the high-roller tenants that will be living there. If the continued anger is simply location and not brought out at all by some sort of jealousy of wealth, why the persistent anger that spills through the computer screen??? I also suspect that even if this were being built downtown, some people would scoff at it and criticize to no end simply because of the prices of the condos.

I don't think this project should be viewed so negatively. With the oncoming Crabtree Village and other project (forgot name) going up behind the mall, this is a beginning. I'm pretty sure we'll see some similar projects within 1-2 miles of these, Soleil just being the tallest. Soleil itself will do little to detract from downtown. Soleil I will be mostly hotel and perhaps 100 residents. Only a handful of those would have ended up in any of the current towers downtown anyway. Soleil II will be office space. Soleil II is more of a detractor from downtown than the larger Soleil I.

Anyhow. Just wanted to share some observations. I've been reading here a lot longer than I've been posting.

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Raleigh alone has several good candidates for a "Midtown" area -- in fact, there may end up being more than one. Crabtree, North Hills, Highwoods -- all are good candidates. Probably the surprising one is the Fairgrounds area, which has several crucial ingredients already: the RBC Center, Westchase, the NCMoA, Rex (with a bunch more stuff coming), a big inventory of land that NCSU could parcel off, and that alltime winner in deal sealers, a location close to an international airport. If transit does get put into place there, you'll soon be craning your neck between Wade Ave. & Western Blvd. along Blue Ridge too.

I doubt it actually...most of the undeveloped land along Blue Ridge between Wade and Western is either (1) state owned and spoken for (Fairgrounds, Museum of Art, Vet School, none of which are going to go anywhere else, so their outlying undeveloped parcels are not on the market); already developed (particularly between Hillsborough and Western Blvd.); or (for the parcels along the tracks in the vicinity of where a rail "State Fairgrounds" station would be) historically industrial, and therefore likely highly environmentally contaminated. Sure there are plenty of folks with the expertise to buy and remediate contaminated parcels (Cherokee for example), but until the transit issue is settled, they probabaly won't pull the trigger on these parcels in the near future.

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I find it amusing to see the anger that the location of Soleil creates for some on this forum. I wonder how much of it is solely the location instead of the location factored in with the high-roller tenants that will be living there. If the continued anger is simply location and not brought out at all by some sort of jealousy of wealth, why the persistent anger that spills through the computer screen??? I also suspect that even if this were being built downtown, some people would scoff at it and criticize to no end simply because of the prices of the condos.

You make some good points. Why would so many people be opposed to having more high-end, high dollar residential? Don't they realize the value and benefits of having more expensive homes in an area? Where do they think that counties and cities get most of their revenue? It definitely doesn't grow on trees.

The city of Raleigh and the county of Wake would not be able to do as many things as have been done in recent years if those entities did not have the wealth of revenue that was generated primarily from property taxes. The more $1 million homes we have vs. $100,000 homes, the greater the property tax revenue, which means better public services, better schools, and basically more municipal amenities for all of us!

It's in all of our best interest to have more expensive homes in this area, eventhough some who aren't ultra wealthy don't agree with it.

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You make some good points. Why would so many people be opposed to having more high-end, high dollar residential? Don't they realize the value and benefits of having more expensive homes in an area? Where do they think that counties and cities get most of their revenue? It definitely doesn't grow on trees.

The city of Raleigh and the county of Wake would not be able to do as many things as have been done in recent years if those entities did not have the wealth of revenue that was generated primarily from property taxes. The more $1 million homes we have vs. $100,000 homes, the greater the property tax revenue, which means better public services, better schools, and basically more municipal amenities for all of us!

It's in all of our best interest to have more expensive homes in this area, eventhough some who aren't ultra wealthy don't agree with it.

DB 78, I don't plainly see, and cannot strain to see an underlying hatred towards the wealthy. Actually, I don't sense vitriol at all towards Soleil. It is more of a "well, I don't think you really understand this community but go ahead with your project, and by the way, good luck with the floods". Ralnative, you are absolutely correct that a community needs its high dollar homes to balance the tax burden. But there are negatives not really discussed here in the Soleil thread and I will use myself as an example. I rented downtown for many years. I kept various low dollar joints in business when nobody else dared come downtown after 5pm. I also dreamed of one day buying a small warehouse or a lot of land and building my own neo-industrial building. But then 1996 and the Cotton Mill renovation came along. We all know the history since then, land values downtown skyrocketing, city making lots of tax money blah blah, but now, making many times more than the minimum wage I did back in the early nineties my only hope of owning anyplace in downtown proper is a small 1 bedroom in X condo project. In my best interest? Sure, crime is lower dowtown, citywide tax rate is low because downtown contributes so much more now than the 'burbs ever did....but my real interest of living downtown has been essentially taken away from me. Many elderly and minorities would also contend that a gaggle of rich folks moving in and usurping an area of town via higher land values for their exclusive use is in their best interest. So on some collective level, regarding some considerations it is probably a net good for the city, but it is certainly a qualifiable statement, and these qualifications are ignored to the detriment of neighborhood quality, history, enviroment and generally the personality on the street level of your (our) city. I don't know anyone who was every clamoring to live near Crabtree Mall so I am generally pretty ok with Soleil as is but laugh at the self ingratiating tone of the marketing.

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I doubt it actually...most of the undeveloped land along Blue Ridge between Wade and Western is either (1) state owned and spoken for (Fairgrounds, Museum of Art, Vet School, none of which are going to go anywhere else, so their outlying undeveloped parcels are not on the market); already developed (particularly between Hillsborough and Western Blvd.); or (for the parcels along the tracks in the vicinity of where a rail "State Fairgrounds" station would be) historically industrial, and therefore likely highly environmentally contaminated. Sure there are plenty of folks with the expertise to buy and remediate contaminated parcels (Cherokee for example), but until the transit issue is settled, they probabaly won't pull the trigger on these parcels in the near future.

The Fairgrounds industrial strip is already in play, and (as you stated) it fits right into Cherokee's niche. Most of the contamination that is there has probably been generated by the railroad itself (or at least the various tenant operators) over the years. There are scores of examples from various cities that chronicle developments over reclaimed railyards (which are generally far more contaminated than the corridor), and alongside active railroad tracks that have not posed any undue impediments. Good or bad in that regard, who knows? But that's the reality, at least since the Reagan years when EPA was essentially neutered.

I've heard rumblings about NCSU's Reedy Creek Farms being sold off for years, and I'm over a thousand miles away! (1,605 to be exact.) I won't argue the value that Reedy Creek has for the vet school -- that's way over my paygrade. But what I will say is that it will become increasingly difficult to stave off the infill pressure on that large a tract, surrounded by such high-profile operations such as those mentioned. It is also not a requirement that the property be sold off or leave state hands to be developed. Think about it. If the state needs to expand backoffice operations (and we don't need to specify any departments here, just in general), does it seem reasonable that they would go about acquiring more land in DTR than they already have (most of which is built out already), or even incur major demolition charges against a building to replace it? They can divest the old bulding to the private sector (especially at the escalating prices downtown), which can more easily absorb demolition charges with bigger, higher-profile projects. The state can then replace the divested building with a cheaper building on virgin land, already surrounded by a cadre of state facilities and in fact, closer to home for the majority of employees. If the state finds none of this appealing then they have a handful of choices: 1) fill in the mall area around the State Government Complex; 2) tear down some of the cheaper, less monstrous edifices occupying state land, such as the Governor's Mansion; or 3) fill in Moore and Nash Squares (yes folks, they belong to the state, not the city -- which is a big reason why two of the original squares were destroyed, the Governor's Mansion sitting on one of them). The fourth and final option is the reason the city's pleading for Dix Hill to become a city park is being balked at so fervently by the state gov. Dix is the present-day relief valve for the state's overflow. If Dix does become a Raleigh city park, that option goes off the table, and Reedy Creek goes into the crosshairs.

Personally, I always liked the pastoral quality of the Reedy Creek Farms, and on purely aesthetic grounds I'd like to see it stay. But as a realist, I opine that there is already so much traffic through the area, and so many houses and businesses built around it, that its utility as a farm is fading fast. 12-story hotels near the RBC Center overlooking cow pastures does not seem to hold much water as an economic viability. So, they may end up being state-owned buildings, but I think there will end up being development on the land that you see as "untouchable". Who knows, if NCSU keeps wasting Centennial Campus land with golf courses, they'll probably need another one in 10 years.

As for Method and Westover, once/if transit gets put into place at the Fairgrounds, they will get systematically parceled out. It may take years, and I'm sure there will be lawsuits, and racial disputes over it, but it will happen. I hope the current homeowners in those areas get pro-active about it now, so they can reap the appropriate windfall from it, instead of wasting money and time for legal wrangling over the seemingly inevitable. In fact, I would hope that they orgainzed a partnership themselves to collectivize their land, and become de facto partners of developers once the building started, so that they could share in the profits of the development as well as their land sales. If the owners are slumlords, then they will make out anyway, people will get displaced, and that's not good. But it would make no sense in any case to have clapboard houses next to a transit station processing thousands of people a day. The markets just won't stand for it.

Soleil itself will impact the Farigrounds as well. Between Soleil/Crabtree, RBC, and the Fairgrounds, you will have an axis of activity that crosses over Wade Ave., a spur of I-40 to the Park and the airport. I think if anyone were to have concerns about Soleil having a (negative) impact on its surroundings, it wouldn't be Crabtree. It would be Edwards Mill Road, especially Laurel Hills. The RBC end is brand new, so there really isn't much that isn't already in flux there. But Laurel Hills is another story. The changes will be swift and severe in that area. Traffic, influx of businesses to serve that traffic, noise, smog, you name it. If the city doesn't do a good job of managing Edwards Mill, it's really going to suck in a few years.

I work with figures that delineate the movement of people everyday. It is indeed a tidal movement. It changes the landscape in ways that residents of the Triangle can only begin to appreciate now that the land inventory there is tight. Just because there is a sand fence on that dune over there today, doesn't mean that there will be tomorrow.

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Personally, I always liked the pastoral quality of the Reedy Creek Farms, and on purely aesthetic grounds I'd like to see it stay. But as a realist, I opine that there is already so much traffic through the area, and so many houses and businesses built around it, that its utility as a farm is fading fast. 12-story hotels near the RBC Center overlooking cow pastures does not seem to hold much water as an economic viability. So, they may end up being state-owned buildings, but I think there will end up being development on the land that you see as "untouchable". Who knows, if NCSU keeps wasting Centennial Campus land with golf courses, they'll probably need another one in 10 years.

But I think the buildup of houses and businesses around it (and it is still MIGHTY pastoral) actually INCREASES the passion and stridency of the people who live nearby for these state owned lands as a valued oasis from the dreary strip-mallish, suburban development sprouting up everywhere else. Sure the state sold off 400 acres in the trangle formed by Edwards mill, Wade, and 40 to a developer, but those lands were largely inaccessible to the public and therefore had no built in constituency. In contract, the Reedy Creek area already has a very vocal and organized group of supporters (witness their ultimately successful 20 year fight against the Duraleigh connector, even after it was repeatedly placed back on the TIP through shady backroom DOT and BOT shenanigans), and now there are probably three times as many people living within 5 miles of their who would fight tooth and nail to preserve their jogging/biking/dog walking spots. The Dix 306 phenomena is (to me) the opening call to arms in a large group of citizens in this area who are ready to draw a line in the sand with the developer "business as usual" crowd and say (like Gandalf to the Balrog) "you will not pass"

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The land northwest of Edwards Mill and Wade Ave is for sale I think. A small, white on green sign for sale sign went up a couple of weeks ago. I don't know if it will be sold or auctioned or what.

In fact, I would be *for* Soleil if it was on that land. It would be close to RBC, Rex, the Museum of Art, the airport, and a couple of miles from Crabtree. It would also *not* be affected by flooding every 5-10 years or make holiday shopping traffic worse. It could link the "mini-buckhead" already in place around Rex Hospital to 40 Wade. The Duraleigh/Edwards Mill area is already "day to day" livable with grocery, drug store, etc. To me, buying a shirt is not "day to day".

Crabtree Valley Mall has turned its back on the creek for decades, and recent developments (PF Chang's, Cheesecake Factory, new restaurants on the new parking deck, Best Buy, Old Navy) further cement this. Anything close to a "riverwalk" will be on the south side of the creek. And those will be a few stories above the water, out of the flooodplain.

The devlopment community in Raleigh has a history of building dots and then *not* wanting them connected. Cameron Village was a forest nowhere near Hillsborough Street before it became the first shopping center in the southeast. To this day, there still is no good connection (walking or automobile) between it and Hillsborough Street or Wade Avenue, two major nearby east-west arteries. Crabtree and North Hills are/were traffic nightmares in the holiday shopping season. The area around Triangle Town Center is a pedestrain's worst nightmare. They tried to make the bus stop at the end of Triangle Town Commons but eventually moved it to near B&N. To say nothing of Six Forks/Strickland or Brier Creek. They claim it's not their job to connect the dots while doing everything they can to make sure their dot isn't connected.

The inability to get TTA approved and the recent flap over buses going to shopping centers are examples of this with mass transit. The fight for a new bridge over the Neuse in extreme North Raleigh and a toll-free 540 in SW Wake are examples of a lack of road connectivity for the "dots".

Opposition to it is not a case of "being jealous of the rich". For me, it is an uncomfortable undercurrent that money gives certain people the right to rewrite the rules to fit their needs, the rest of the community be damned. Be it Soleil's O&I2 loophole (and TIF if Kane gets his) or Norh Hills East wanting $75 million today for tax revenue 20 years from now (but no benchmarks or strings attached), developers want to maximize their profit without taking into consideration their surroundings.

The same has been happening with schools. Rich neighborhoods don't want their kids bused out (bring back neighborhood schools!) *or* other kids bussed in. And they don't want them to be year round schools either. And don't want to pass new school construction bonds -- stop fixing up old schools and use that money to build Former Greenfield Elementry. If they don't get what they want, they sue (Wake "cares").

The promise of expensive homes generating more tax revenue is empty when that revenue is tied to parking decks (NHE) or stormwater improvements (Soleil).

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