Soleil Center I & II at Crabtree

[serapis]

I agree with you on this point, Jones. The problem is that the running theme in this thread is that Soleil should not happen via a top-down approach. IF the market can't handle it organically, then it shouldn't be built. However that's up to the developers to decide, not us. When we start deciding we start running into quagmires like:

* It's OK to build a 12-story hotel in the flood plane, but if you put 10 stories of condos on top, it's not, regardless of the building's massing.

* It's OK to build a 12-story hotel in the flood plane and to build 40 spread out condos in the floodplane on 4X as much land, but you can't put the condos on top of the hotel.

* Land needs to be conserved in the suburbs, but you can't build tall outside of downtown

* The only place people should be able to live above the treeline is downtown

* It's OK to build condos and apartments that require the use of a car, so long as they aren't noticeable from down the street.

* Buildings cannot sharply be taller than other nearby buildings

* It's OK for existing buildings to sit in a floodplane, but new buildings cannot be built. (we end up with second rate, inappropriate buildings remaining in the plane)

Just build the thing already. It won't bother me or anyone else on this board one way or the other. I'm ready to take photos of it!!!

[DB78]

I agree Serapis. Everyone here complains about the location, but that is an issue which was decided long ago by the developers. Everyone needs to get over it and realize those complaints are worthless to whether this project goes forward or not. I don't see why so many people here are such vocal complainers when it will have zero effect on them. The developers aren't going to suddenly switch the plan over to downtown, so everyone with their panties in a bunch needs to get over the location. It will be a much bigger shame if Soleil doesn't get built at all than if it does in a place where some UP people object to. I would hope there is no one who would rather have nothing get built at all.

[Gard]

Its offical....Soleil Center is STALLED. Developers blame trouble in the financial market for it and they say it could take them up to 3 months to get new financing: http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/1144214.html

[DPK]

Its offical....Soleil Center is STALLED. Developers blame trouble in the financial market for it and they say it could take them up to 3 months to get new financing: http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/1144214.html

From that article the developers still sound pretty determined, but they're also in the hole a lot of money. It sounds like they've been through a lot in terms of financing so I like how they're being positive about it all.

Their optimism -- buoyed by easy lending and population growth that has fueled the Triangle's construction boom in recent years -- has gotten them this far.

That was in "recent years" however and it's a lot harder to get loans now especially with all the Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac crap going on these last few weeks. They've got their work cut out for themselves. I think collectively we can all agree that this project just doesn't fit our market in Raleigh very well right now and I'm not talking building size, so don't bring that up, it's been ranted on throughout this entire thread.

[ChiefJoJo]

^ Not surprising at all. They bit off more than they could chew. They are between a rock and a hard place on this. They have site plan approval and building permits for a tower that appears to not be feasible and construction and engineering loans are coming due soon. They could rescale the project, like Lafayette is doing downtown, but that would take a lot of time to go back through the approval process... likely too long for them to avoid having the bank putting the hammer down. It's very hard to imagine this ending well for the Soleil Group, but I wish them well. At least their New Bern project has gone well.

* It's OK to build a 12-story hotel in the flood plane, but if you put 10 stories of condos on top, it's not, regardless of the building's massing.

* It's OK to build a 12-story hotel in the flood plane and to build 40 spread out condos in the floodplane on 4X as much land, but you can't put the condos on top of the hotel.

* Land needs to be conserved in the suburbs, but you can't build tall outside of downtown

* The only place people should be able to live above the treeline is downtown

* It's OK to build condos and apartments that require the use of a car, so long as they aren't noticeable from down the street.

* Buildings cannot sharply be taller than other nearby buildings

* It's OK for existing buildings to sit in a floodplane, but new buildings cannot be built. (we end up with second rate, inappropriate buildings remaining in the plane)

The flood plain issue is admittedly not a strong one, since the old Sheraton was there too. The floodplain mistake was made 40 years ago, so I tend to agree with you. My previous compare and contrast was with Crabtree Place, which is not in the flood plain, and therefore can create a lively street-level experience. Soleil can't, but it doesn't mean that nothing should be built there.

Also, no one is saying that buildings cannot be tall outside of downtown. Look at North Hills. I think the scale of what's going in there (without a TIF) is appropriate for that site. Being opposed to Soleil because of scale does not equal being opposed to density and height outside of downtown. What I am opposed to is a 480-ft building outside of downtown. I understand the free market approach, but it's not a black and white issue. Don't you think there should be some limits to what can be built in given areas within the city? or is it up to the market to decide? I would say that the laissez-faire approach is tantalizing with it's simplicity, but it's results usually produce a disorderly and unlivable mess.

I think the city should begin to explore in detail what height limits are appropriate in given locations in the city, particularly near residential neighborhoods. Perhaps the comp plan will do this.

[Tayfromcarolina]

From inception to Fruition this project has been a Hot Mess. I still say this thing never sees the light of day. I mean really, it could have been nearly finished by now. If they had done things more quickly they wouldnt have hit these horrible financing headwinds they are now.

[uptownliving]

I have never thought this lot was a good space for development. In my opinion it should be a park attached to the existing greenway. The park could be designed with a series of retaining ponds that could actually improve the flooding problem that happens from time to time at Crabtree Valley.

I do think that Crabtree Valley can support a Westin and some luxury condos. I just don't think this is a good site for any development.

[Jones_]

I agree Serapis. Everyone here complains about the location, but that is an issue which was decided long ago by the developers. Everyone needs to get over it and realize those complaints are worthless to whether this project goes forward or not. I don't see why so many people here are such vocal complainers when it will have zero effect on them. The developers aren't going to suddenly switch the plan over to downtown, so everyone with their panties in a bunch needs to get over the location. It will be a much bigger shame if Soleil doesn't get built at all than if it does in a place where some UP people object to. I would hope there is no one who would rather have nothing get built at all.

The Gestapo are back.

First, understand there really is not much "complaining" about the project, just honest-Abe style critiquing. I don't care if it gets built (as is the case with most people here), we just think the writing on the wall was so plain, a two-year old could figure out this project would not fare well in this location as originally envisioned. I personally was "over" it from day one. Second, I have yet to see anyone say with sincerity that they think the project will get moved downtown. But those of us with a taste for the markets around here think as proposed, this building might have stood a chance downtown. Either that or the Westin alone would have done well at Crabtree. Specifically, your claim that location is a worthless piece of the puzzle as to whether or not the project goes forward or not is just plain wrong. The logic goes: In this area(RTP), urban styled condos sell better in an urban location. These condos are urban styled but not in an urban location. Therefore inclusion of condos in this project at this location jeopardizes the entire project. Those needed hotel rooms are being held up largely by this. The other component in the stalling is of course credit, for essentially the builder. Buyers at this price point are not often hindered by broad market credit tightening. It seems real cut and dry to me....until the next flood anyway....

[DCMetroRaleigh]

If they had done things more quickly they wouldnt have hit these horrible financing headwinds they are now.

Bingo. The early bird gets the worm. The late one, just drops out of the sky. They should have made haste and built while the iron was hot.

[rjgeary]

The Perkins+Will designed tower will win awards worldwide guaranteed, and will exude more elegance than any building in Atlanta, period.

Oh, please. I saw the Soleil Tower advertised in the International Herald Tribune two years ago when I was in Italy. Except that it wasn't the Soleil at all, it was its absolute TWIN, being marketed in (if I remember correctly) Chicago.

In other words, the design was cut-and-paste.

I said then that the Soleil tower wouldn't be built, and the real objective of the developers was the rezoning in order for them to flip a much more valuable (because upzoned) property. Hopefully -- for their sakes -- I was right, and they didn't risk a lot of money on a Don Quixote effort. Hopefully, they were winking at Raleigh all along ...

[dmccall]

Bob, was it this one?

[ncwebguy]

The credit/liquidity crisis created by this project and others like it across the country doesn't affect "everyone", just the 70% or so of people who apply for mortgages, auto loans, credit cards, etc. If the wealthiest 5 percent are not affected, should we just take Phil Gramm's advice and quit whining? Or should we address the problem by holding financial institutions responsible for financing pie-in-the-sky dream projects built on difficult-to-stablize bedrock in a floodplain? You know, the *magical* banks the Soleil Group was going to laugh all the way to, not the *real* ones they're currently crawling to on hands and knees, begging for yet another loan extension.

It is a shame that the Westin hotel has been held hostage to get extension after extension for the Soleil Group. Didn't they have their financing lined up months/years ago? When Mike Regan voted to approve it because they didn't need a dime in public funding. Soleil thought the city wasn't "dreaming big enough" while ignoring the fact that Raleigh owes a lot of its success to being reasonable, simple, and cautiously progressive. Which is half a world away from Dubai and any other location constructing towers Because They Can.

Raleigh will still be Raleigh even without the mistake of a shiny 43 story monument to ego across the street from the city's original mistake-in-a-floodplain. Should we condem every structure in a floodplain? No, but we should learn from the mistake, not repeat it. Learning includes allowing structures that do eleveate active uses out of the floodplain, a la development near Six Forks/Wake Forest Road adjacent to ... wait for it... Crabtree Creek!

Should we allow people to build whatever they want in a floodplain due to a typo or some other mistake in the zoning office decades ago? No. Should we be suspicious when planning committee and city council meetings are attended by so many members of the devlopment community that the general public is shut out? Absoutely. But that doesn't stop the "shut up, you don't have a say" peanut gallery.

Would prohibiting new surface buildings in flood plains make the existing building inventory diminsh in quality? Depends on what the owner wants to do with his or her property. The owners of Crabtree Valley Mall seem to be making a go of it. It could be "second rate" compared to higher end malls like South Park, but it isn't don't bad.

Creating a ficticious market that 1) doesn't want to live in a downtown/urban area 2) wants to live in a skyscraper 3) doesn't want to live in a mansion 4) wants to live in Raleigh, North Carolina didn't work. There are a lot of people that fall into two or three of those groups, but not all four. Spending a lot of money on marketing didn't create the market, etither.

Mitigating the concequences of being in a flood plain helps, like the greenway behind Crabtree. But devlopers who want to build in a flood plan have to take the "buyer beware" stance, not the spoiled child stance Soleil took earlier -- the city should spend money on redirecting water elsewhere to improve Soleil's property value.

"Tall" is a loaded word. When Durham gave the OK for a few tall towers outside the downtown area, neither its downtown or the area around those buildings (9th Street, South Square) improved. When the city of Raleigh gave direction to build "clusters" with "tall" buildings, we got Highwoods, Brier Creek, and the Triangle Town Center area. If we start designating more hubs/clusters/whatever in more places because we ran out of land in the existing ones, maybe we should slow down and learn from our mistakes? Nah, that only leads to bunched up panties. I can only speak for myself, but I don't wear panties. I also don't appreciate the insinuation that anyone opposed to a certain world view does *and* should not speak, but other people can work out their insecurities on their own time.

This has all been said many times before, but I'm sure it will still sound like "OMG tall buildings belong downtown" to the "developers are not to be questioned, anyone who thinks otherwise should shut up, we're doing this live!" crowd.

[Atlside]

43 stories of glass and steel poised to rise next to a squat, suburban mall.

But for now, Soleil Center is stalled.

Jul 17, 2008

Lending pullback stalls Soleil tower

Developer seeks more financing for project that drew criticism for edgy look and top-tier prices

Jack Hagel, Staff Writer

The News & Observer

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/1144214.html

[Gard]

^^^

Posted on the previous page of this thread

When the city of Raleigh gave direction to build "clusters" with "tall" buildings, we got Highwoods, Brier Creek, and the Triangle Town Center area

Yep and all we got in return was a bunch of disjointed projects with pavement for as far as the eye can see...

There is nothing in these areas I would ever consider "tall." The new Hilton next to the 540/capital interchange is probably the tallest building in north Raleigh, at least in the Capital area!

[vitaviatic]

Well, whether you were against this project from the outset, gung-ho for it, or were a fence-sitter as was I until the Soleil got greenlighted, you may as well come to the realization that it either gets completed as is, or sits as a hole in the ground for years -- really wrecking the neighborhood -- and maybe taking Crabtree itself down with it. As the fads have changed, indoor malls are not in vogue anymore. (The rationale is that fat people don't or can't walk in the malls anymore, so they need close in parking to these unadorned boxes.) What you get now are Triangle Town Centers and Streets -- the euphemistically named "lifestyle centers". Those old-school indoor malls, like Crabtree, that have density (and by that I mean BIG density) around them tend to hang on, and even thrive. Lenox Square in ATL, Crystal and Pentagon City(s), or Ballston in NVA are prime examples in your neighborhood. Those that are stuck adrift amidst a sea of split-level ranch homes either die or morph into Big Box hell -- witness Durham's Northgate and South Square. I reached a considered opinion not long after the plans went through that Soleil was probably Crabtree's guarantee of long-term survival.

The floodplain is a non-issue. With all due respect, if the "floodplain" designator was all that dangerous then the Mall itself should be scrapped. Yeah, I saw it flood there many times. I used to live as a teenager in the neighbourhood near where all those goofy Wynds are. (I'm sure the ever-funky Windsors get a kick out of those. But I digress... ) But a swamp it isn't. The old Holiday Inn on Hillsborough (Clarion, or whatever it is now) is designed the same way, with a parking turret on the bottom floors, but nobody screams about that. And I doubt any developer is going to raft his quarter-billion dollar property on top of an undisguised garage. As far as I'm concerned, the entire city of Norfolk is not only a floodplain, but a swell magnet as well. Chicago itself (architects back me up here) is built on pure silt and the covered charred and composted ruins of Mrs. O'Leary's naughty cow. If the builder is willing to pile it deep enough, who cares?

But the most unavoidable fact that most of us have difficulty accepting is that Soleil, just like everything everywhere, is economically driven. You can argue against the aesthetics of Soleil all you want, but the fact is that if Soleil doesn't get built, something like it will -- perhaps with less quality because of the accelerated land costs. The future of Crabtree was already written for high density. The very same arguments that we make for density over on the transit side are the exact same forces that drive tall buildings. Transportation capacity, in the form of the Beltline at what?, eight lanes, plus the ten or so of Glenwood, equidistant to the main commercial centers of the Triangle -- assures that land value will be high enough that you will get high density (thus tall buildings) there. Not everything fits downtown. The existence of Crabtree creates a niche market. It is sellable, trust me. Now, is 43-stories excessive? Perhaps. But I would rather have a quality 43-story structure with at least some definition to it than an ocean of squat 12-story garbage.

But the stringline theory is well-illustrated in larger metros. It is why you get a 63-story tower in the Galleria area of Houston, some ten miles from downtown. Freeway capacity. (And the argument that Houston's zoning-free nature alone led to that debacle is bunk -- the economics of freeways with an assist from Gerald Hines put it there.) It explains why you get forests of mid-rises in weird places like Southfield, Michigan. Atlanta's very small street grid downtown led to the spillage into Midtown and on out to Dunwoody. Raleigh's downtown is also small (government-dominated to boot), and you'll see the same there -- better at Crabtree than Hayes Barton, or even Cameron Village, right? Here in Denver's DTC, I look out of my window to the south to a three-dozen cluster of height-restricted Teener buildings ranging up to a 23-story production thrown in there just to irk the FAA. I'd take a Soleil Center any day over what I see here nine and one-half miles from downtown.

I'll put my Swammi cap on now, and judging by developments I have seen in other parts of the country, I would prognosticate that Soleil does get financed, since relatively speaking it is a quality project, but it may take a year or so. They may have to make adjustments to the hotel to do so due to the crashing long-distance travel market, and dedicate more space to office (the commercial sector seems to be holding water), and fiddle with the pricing for the condos. All this happens only if the developers love the project enough to just break even or even take a small hit in order to build a portfolio.

Take this for what it's worth. I know that Mr. Geary et al, despise this project. But to those of us from the outside looking in, Soleil is actually pretty impressive. DT Raleigh doesn't really impress me. In fact, DTR underwhelms me, still, even with RBC coming online. The place is still waiting for that nuclear bullet that will inject some real energy into the place. That skyline could be Memphis. It could be Richmond. (Actually no -- those two have rivers.) It could be anywhere. What impresses people arriving by air into the Triangle is not the impressive scale and quality of the skylines, it is the fact that there are so many different skylines scattered here and yon, that give the impression of an energetic place. My advice? Don't waste your sanity fighting your own collective synergies.

[DB78]

Great post Vita. It will be interesting to see what the final project does transform into if it doesn't go defunct. I haven't heard or seen anywhere updated news about the 2 projects that are supposed to go up behind Crabtree. Financial equity crisis aside, those and Soleil would have a synergistic effect for the Crabtree area. Soleil by itself is quite awkward, but with the addition of those 2 developments, the area gels better visually at least.

Clearly I ticked off some folks here with my previous commentary. I noticed angry reactions towards things I never even said. I'd say that's seeing more than what was actually there. With over 1000 posts, this project has been overanalyzed, with frequent redundant commentary. That's the point I was trying to make before.

I look forward to hearing what finally does come of this project.

[rjgeary]

Bob, was it this one?

Dana -- No. Honest to goodness, it was the EXACT same design as Soleil from the base up -- obviously, wherever it was, the shape of the site was different, so the base was different also. But, same "edgy" look on the top 37-38 floors.

[Jones_]

The latest at TBJ.

[ChiefJoJo]

The latest at TBJ.

Basically, they have no financing (as we pretty much knew) and it sounds likely that Soleil Group will utilize their portfolio to settle the outstanding loan payment with Regions. If they are waiting out the market, I think we will be waiting a long time... and all the while, inflation will eat up whatever profit margin they had. And that's assuming they can still sell those condos at $500k+ (which I'm not sure they can). They have a decent portfolio of hotels to fall back on, but I doubt it's enough to subsidize a big loss on this monster.

I dunno, maybe they can make it happen, but it doesn't look good from here.

[Jones_]

If you ever see big name department stores like Neiman Marcus, or Nordstrom or Saks stolen from the other malls make it to Crabtree, or just simply see the two projects behind the mall come out of the ground then Soleil could possibly piggy back on renewed momentum in the area. Its funny though how while the mall keeps reinventing itself and keeping up with the new malls (doing better even) that the success never seems to really spill beyond the malls borders. Somebody has a real nice foundation to build on if Soleil Group ever parts with the parcel.

[Captain Awesome]

Its funny though how while the mall keeps reinventing itself and keeping up with the new malls (doing better even) that the success never seems to really spill beyond the malls borders.

I wonder if that is inherent in malls? Is there a precedent for a successful mall to spark development and investment in the surrounding area of this nature?

[JeffC]

Most interesting quote in that article:

They wanted to make a big show that construction had started,

[Jones_]

^bingo.

[ncwebguy]

I wonder if that is inherent in malls? Is there a precedent for a successful mall to spark development and investment in the surrounding area of this nature?

The two newish malls in the area (Southpoint, Triangle Town Center) have either a) sparked development in the surrounding area or b) were built to meet the shopping needs of the accompying greenfield housing developments nearby.

TTC has a lot of new investment from Circuit City/BJ's through Best Buy, HH Gregg, the mall itself, the Super Target, the upcoming Super Walmart, and the hotel and other developments between the mall and 540. Was that due to the mall or 540? probably a little of both.

Southpoint also had developments to the east (Rennisance) and west (more big boxes including the Super Target, and the hotel). But some of that may be due to the Woodcroft area just north of 40 coming into its own and other subdivisions on/near 751 and Fayetville Road.

As the areas surrounding those two malls were developed, Crabtree's surroundings have done nothing, even with

the "promise" of Soleil. Crabtree itself rennovated the service center, added more parking, rennovated the L&T space, and is adding more restaurants to its mix. Yet proposed/approved projects at Kidds Hill and the old Brendels/Food Lion/Steak and Ale parcels have been stillbornt. The office park up Edwards Mill seems to be stalled as well, so the office space market in the area might not be too strong either.

There has been no talk of the "II" part of Soleil lately, either. The office component was supposed to be a "slam dunk" too, yet there has been little discussion about construction, tenants, etc. Was it dependent on the parking deck in the main tower?

Rennovations at the area's other existing malls haven't sparked much. The area around Northgate in Durham is pretty much the same as it was before the movie theater and outdoor area were added. Nothing has happened near North Hills, though Kane owning it all has kept development there in check. Cary Town Center did a little, adding the shops near Walnut Street and the aquatic center. It was already somewhat "landlocked" by neighborhoods, but the area down the road near South Hills hasn't done much of anything. Crossroads has added some apartments, and seems mostly leased, so it is hard to improve there.

*Everything* related to the Soleil Center has been a big show -- signing on Westin for their three to two conversion of the old Sheraton Five Points hotel, changing plans to build the new tower (Glen-Tree), pricing of the condos, the city council rubber stamp approval, the ad buys, the hotel demolition, more ad buys, the website, the model/sales center, even more ad buys, the drilling, etc. Some people bought this sizzle, some people waited for the steak (something coming out of the ground).

Westin deserves better, and I hope they don't sour on the Triangle market due to their experience with the Soleil Group.

[Gard]

You know, I'd rather see Westin pull out at this point and maybe negotiate a deal for the proposed hotel slot at North Hills East.