Grand Rapids Nude Dancing Ban....For? or Against?

[grandrapidsdude123]

GR City Commissioners voted 6 to 1 in favor of a nude dancing ban.

Are you for or against this?

http://woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4813316

[Occam]

GR City Commissioners voted 6 to 1 in favor of a nude dancing ban.

Are you for or against this?

http://woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4813316

I wouldn't say they voted in favor of it... They voted to prevent totally nude dancing. The new strip club proposed downtown is a strange proposition, since the establishment doesn't have a liquor license. I'd imagine a booby bar without alchohol wouldn't last long. Do the other clubs in town all have liquor licenses?

[snoogit]

I wouldn't say they voted in favor of it... They voted to prevent totally nude dancing. The new strip club proposed downtown is a strange proposition, since the establishment doesn't have a liquor license. I'd imagine a booby bar without alchohol wouldn't last long. Do the other clubs in town all have liquor licenses?

most all nude clubs are restricted from serving alcohol, but I have a good feeling this will be contested, and eventually overturned.

that article tries to make Tormalla look bad, but in all honesty, it makes im look better. I would agree the use of Private funds to fund a legal case is disturbing.

[grandrapidsdude123]

I wouldn't say they voted in favor of it... They voted to prevent totally nude dancing. The new strip club proposed downtown is a strange proposition, since the establishment doesn't have a liquor license. I'd imagine a booby bar without alchohol wouldn't last long. Do the other clubs in town all have liquor licenses?

To my knowledge Red Barn is the only full nude club in GR and they don't have a liqour license.

As for private fund use. I understand these monies are simply pledges at present and not cash in hand. Last I heard was she only had $1k or so in hard funds.

I expect this will go into the courts fast. Get taken off the books and stay in the courts for 2-5 years.

[NorthEnder]

To my knowledge Red Barn is the only full nude club in GR and they don't have a liqour license.

As for private fund use. I understand these monies are simply pledges at present and not cash in hand. Last I heard was she only had $1k or so in hard funds.

I expect this will go into the courts fast. Get taken off the books and stay in the courts for 2-5 years.

Is the city worried nude dancing will ruin the family atmosphere over by that club? There is NOTHING around it.

[civitas]

most all nude clubs are restricted from serving alcohol, but I have a good feeling this will be contested, and eventually overturned.

that article tries to make Tormalla look bad, but in all honesty, it makes im look better. I would agree the use of Private funds to fund a legal case is disturbing.

Snoogit, is it also disturbing when private funds are contributed for the construction of a public museum, arena, convention center, GVSU Business School, MSU Medical School, Rosa Park Circle, Monroe Center, Millinium Park, etc., etc., etc.? Most of the really good public things in the city are accomplished with significant private support.

I'm apparantly a minority in the poll, but I will financially support the defense of this ordinance because such activity has a measurable negative impact on the community. But much more importantly, I support the ordinance as the father of three beautiful daughters and the husband of a beautiful wife. I strongly believe that my role as a man is to both honor and protect the women in my life and I can't imagine anything farther from that belief than a strip joint. Government exists to protect the health, safety and welfare of the community. Tonight the men and women of the city commission voted to do just that and I'm glad they did.

Regarding the likelihood of the courts overturning the ordinance, read the Supreme Court's findings in Barnes vs Glen Theatres Inc. for a very similar situation. Indiana's ordinance was overturned on appeal but the United States Supreme Court reversed the appeal thereby reinstating the state's ordinance. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getc...l=501&invol=560

"Respondents, two Indiana establishments wishing to provide totally nude dancing as entertainment and individual dancers employed at those establishments, brought suit in the District Court to enjoin enforcement of the state public indecency law - which requires respondent dancers to wear pasties and a G-string - asserting that the law's prohibition against total nudity in public places violates the First Amendment. The court held that the nude dancing involved here was not expressive conduct. The Court of Appeals reversed, ruling that nonobscene nude dancing performed for entertainment is protected expression, and that the statute was an improper infringement of that activity because its purpose was to prevent the message of eroticism and sexuality conveyed by the dancers. Held: The judgment is reversed."

[GRDadof3]

My guess is that it will probably stick. Kalamazoo and Battle Creek have similar ordinances.

[Sunlover38]

Snoogit, is it also disturbing when private funds are contributed for the construction of a public museum, arena, convention center, GVSU Business School, MSU Medical School, Rosa Park Circle, Monroe Center, Millinium Park, etc., etc., etc.? Most of the really good public things in the city are accomplished with significant private support.

I'm apparantly a minority in the poll, but I will financially support the defense of this ordinance because such activity has a measurable negative impact on the community. But much more importantly, I support the ordinance as the father of three beautiful daughters and the husband of a beautiful wife. I strongly believe that my role as a man is to both honor and protect the women in my life and I can't imagine anything farther from that belief than a strip joint. Government exists to protect the health, safety and welfare of the community. Tonight the men and women of the city commission voted to do just that and I'm glad they did.

The judgment is reversed."

Civitas, you just made my day. Excellent points. I applaud your respect for your wife - - that is becoming quite a rariety these days. Thanks for the informative post.

[DwntwnGeo]

GRDad,

On News 8 at 11pm last night they mentioned that Kzoo and Battle Creek have simular ordinances, but in the same breathe they mentioned that they were never inforced by either city. Why put an ordinance on the books if you don't intend to use it

My guess is that it will probably stick. Kalamazoo and Battle Creek have similar ordinances.

[GRDadof3]

GRDad,

On News 8 at 11pm last night they mentioned that Kzoo and Battle Creek have simular ordinances, but in the same breathe they mentioned that they were never inforced by either city. Why put an ordinance on the books if you don't intend to use it

Well, from my experience of living in Kzoo back in the early 90's, a particular all-nude club in Kzoo didn't serve alcohol. They just charged $5 - $6 for a Coke, and you had to get a new one every 30 minutes or so. Not having alcohol did not seem to be hurting their business one bit. I wonder what they mean by "not enforced"? Does it mean that police are not doing spot checks to make sure alcohol is not being served? To purchase and serve alcohol at an establishment without a license is risky business. Very few liquor vendors would come near your place if you don't have a license for fear of being shut down. And to resell packaged liqour from a store at your club would probably not be very profitable, even if you went to Indiana to buy it. I would think that club owners would actually prefer sober patrons so that things don't get out of control.

In other words, maybe enforcement of the ordinance is not that warranted. The worse offenders are regular bars that host wet T-shirt contests or G-string contests.

OK, I was there for a bachelor party, ONCE. I find the whole strip club thing overrated anyway. I respect my wife and 3 girls (me too civitas) by not indulging in these activities, or associating with people who do.

[DwntwnGeo]

When I heard the report last night, I wasn't thinking about clubs not adhearing to the alcohol ruling. I had always thought that was a State of Michigan ruling (topless can serve alcohol, full nudity cannot), but I could be wrong on this. I thought they were referring to the six foot radius and physical touching not being enforced.

I do not frequent these types of establishments myself, but I always try to keep an open mind on things. I haven't been around the world or anything, but most major cities I have been to (Detroit, Indy, Chicago, NYC) all seem to have an establishment of this type. Apparently there is an aduience for these type of busineses. Not every entertainment type is for everyone. Some people like to go to Casinos while others like to go to Rock/Country concerts. Everyone is different. As far as strip clubs, I haven't heard anyone say that they were forced to go/visit or forced to work there. Everyone should have the right to go or not. I don't think they need to be in residential neighborhoods, but on the flip side, I would think there would be an area in a community that they could do business. I believe in being respectful and having morals, but I also believe they should be started and developed at home at a family level.

Just my $.02 and I am not wanting to fight with anyone I just want to try and keep an open mind

Well, from my experience of living in Kzoo back in the early 90's, a particular all-nude club in Kzoo didn't serve alcohol. They just charged $5 - $6 for a Coke, and you had to get a new one every 30 minutes or so. Not having alcohol did not seem to be hurting their business one bit. I wonder what they mean by "not enforced"? Does it mean that police are not doing spot checks to make sure alcohol is not being served? To purchase and serve alcohol at an establishment without a license is risky business. Very few liquor vendors would come near your place if you don't have a license for fear of being shut down. And to resell packaged liqour from a store at your club would probably not be very profitable, even if you went to Indiana to buy it. I would think that club owners would actually prefer sober patrons so that things don't get out of control.

[Veloise]

To my knowledge Red Barn is the only full nude club in GR and they don't have a liqour license.

...

Research!

[Rizzo]

So who's going to represent us, The City of Grand Rapids against the 800lb monkey? Why are my taxes fighting the fight that has already be fought? I want friggin skyscrapers NOW! I vote that we get some money and make The City of Grand Rapids build them for us, seriously.

I remember 3-4 years back I was watching GRTV and a couple of girls were doing hidden camers on the kinds of people that entered these joints. It was hilarious because it was so true, the stereotype of the individuals that enter ring through on almost all the men who dare entered in daylight...

[grandrapidsdude123]

Research!

Why, yes of course

[hood]

This ordiance infringes on a number of rights, the two biggest being personal property rights and pursuit of happieness rights. Whether you agree or disagree with nude dancing, you have no right to tell other people what they can and cannot do if it does not DIRECTLY affect you.

[Rizzo]

The guy that heads the downtown fireworks was on Channel 8 couple days ago and he looked about ready to cry... He has to break it to all of us that we won't be able to see fireworks over the Grand and he was about ready to cry. Where's a 100 grand when you need it? We're Americans in a several time ALL AMERICAN CITY and we can't even have our 4th of July firworks to celebrate being American in the All American City. God, please help us.

[grandrapidsdude123]

The guy that heads the downtown fireworks was on Channel 8 couple days ago and he looked about ready to cry... He has to break it to all of us that we won't be able to see fireworks over the Grand and he was about ready to cry. Were's a 100 grand when you need it? Were Americans in a several time ALL AMERICAN CITY and we can't even have our 4th of July firworks to celebrate being American in the All American City. God, please help us.

Perhaps a good PR move on the part of the strip clubs would be to raise the money for the fireworks. Probably would not take very long to do and would gain them good will to boot.

[jayblogger]

Perhaps a good PR move on the part of the strip clubs would be to raise the money for the fireworks. Probably would not take very long to do and would gain them good will to boot.

that's absurd.

the owners of these establishments are being singled out by the usual gang of moralistic extremists and you want them to fix the GR budget woes as a PR stunt/bribe. riiight

i swore i wasn't going to get involved in this debate, but now the dam has broken.

it's a bad ban. i hope it gets overturned soon on the usual objections.

[hood]

Perhaps a good PR move on the part of the strip clubs would be to raise the money for the fireworks. Probably would not take very long to do and would gain them good will to boot.

Regardless of who raises the money someone needs to find a way to finance firewaorks. The thought of a city the size of GR not having fireworks on the fourth is pitiful. Lansing's fireworks have been paid for by GM for years now, I'm sure that if all else fails DeVos, Van Andel or Meijer will pay for some.

[Rizzo]

Are you kidding? The DV team paying for fireworks....

[peaceloveunderstanding]

This ordiance infringes on a number of rights, the two biggest being personal property rights and pursuit of happieness rights. Whether you agree or disagree with nude dancing, you have no right to tell other people what they can and cannot do if it does not DIRECTLY affect you.

I agree. They could have put limits on sinage, location, and means of promotion and that would have been more appropriate.

[civitas]

This ordiance infringes on a number of rights, the two biggest being personal property rights and pursuit of happieness rights. Whether you agree or disagree with nude dancing, you have no right to tell other people what they can and cannot do if it does not DIRECTLY affect you.

Hood, freedom is never without responsibility and a culture will be short lived if it is based on moral relativism. My generation invented the "if it feels good do it" philosophy in the late 60's. I fully understand the mentality and I'm old enough to realize how far our culture has declined as a result. It is a self-centered attitude that has caused us to drift far from the sense of community that we used to have. It's highest goal is your own ego and your own desires and "the common good" takes a backseat to everything. It is not sustainable.

"You have no right to tell other people what they can and cannot do..." Sorry, the US Supreme Court has determined that there is nothing unconstitutional about such an ordinance. We as a community have every right to regulate certain activities and have done so for many years. Such laws are right, they are just and they are sustainable.

[Phizzy]

These people that go to the clubs, get out of the clubs and, for whatever reasons, they're riled or excited and then they go home or go on the streets and do things and this ought not to be.

What's next, bars? Dance clubs? What about arenas? Heaven forbid someone attending a Rampage game getting "riled or exited", then going "on the streets" and doing "things"...

Every step of the way perpetuates the emotional and sexual drive of the person that's watching it, and total nudity is the utmost. And we'd like to not put them into that spot.

I'll have to remember to close my eyes when engaging in intimate behavior with my wife because I wouldn't want to perpetuate my "emotional and sexual drive", seeing that "nudity is the utmost". I certainly wouldn't want to be put "into that spot".

[Rizzo]

nevermind

[snoogit]

Snoogit, is it also disturbing when private funds are contributed for the construction of a public museum, arena, convention center, GVSU Business School, MSU Medical School, Rosa Park Circle, Monroe Center, Millinium Park, etc., etc., etc.? Most of the really good public things in the city are accomplished with significant private support.

Those aren't court cases though, raising money for a public service like a park, or school is not equal to donating to a city to mount a defense against impending lawsuits. The two are mutually exclusive. Fundraising to uphold a law is what gets people in trouble. Its why you're seeing sleezeballs like Jack Abramov going to jail, with Tom Delay right behind him.

Think of it this way, [EXAMPLE] If I was a group that supported say public animal sacrifice, and I told the city that I had enough money in the bank to fund for their legal defense to allow Animal sacrifice in the streets, and we would pay for their legal defense if they agreed to allow public animal sacrifice. The city then goes and legalizes Animal sacrifice, outrage is thrown about by PETA, and the city gets a lawsuit from PETA. but now the city has the legal funds to fight the case. [/EXAMPLE]

Sure we are ok with it since its a service most people dont like to think about, and its generally one where you dont get much vocal opposition. But what stops someone from going to the city commission, with a wad of cash, and a promise they will pay for the legal costs of a court case if they pass their legislation?

Its law for hire, and its wrong. Its illegal, and it should be stopped at all costs. I wouldn't be surprised if this went to court, gets thrown out, and the donors are investigated.