Grand Rapids Nude Dancing Ban....For? or Against?

[hood]

Hood, freedom is never without responsibility and a culture will be short lived if it is based on moral relativism. My generation invented the "if it feels good do it" philosophy in the late 60's. I fully understand the mentality and I'm old enough to realize how far our culture has declined as a result. It is a self-centered attitude that has caused us to drift far from the sense of community that we used to have. It's highest goal is your own ego and your own desires and "the common good" takes a backseat to everything. It is not sustainable.

"You have no right to tell other people what they can and cannot do..." Sorry, the US Supreme Court has determined that there is nothing unconstitutional about such an ordinance. We as a community have every right to regulate certain activities and have done so for many years. Such laws are right, they are just and they are sustainable.

I completely disagree, if people stayed out of each others business and morals this country would be a much better place. That goes for people who support banning smoking in resturaunts, it's ridiculous. Maybe I don't want coffeshops in my city, they attract a lot of smug, rich and arrogant people. I certainly don't want to be around those people. Of course most people who go to coffee shops aren't like that, but most people who go to and work in strip clubs aren't nearly as bad as they are made out to be. And another point, how can one argue that strip clubs degrade women, if anything they degrade men. It's men who spend ridiculous amounts of money at these places, and the women who make huge amounts of money working very few hours, woment by far get the better end of the deal. Besides, most strip clubs are very discrete, if you don't go in they aren't hurting you one bit.

[joeDowntown]

I also respect my wife and daughter (although I don't really know what that has to do with it) but I *totally* disagree with the city's actions. The fact of the matter is this has been fought in many cities and defeated.

It doesn't matter if you or I don't like something. We have the right to not frequent the establishment. I think Rick Tormala was dead on voting against it. Face it, the city put very narrow restrictions on where such an establishment could open. Mark London found such a place and the market, not some small group of people, should dictate whether the place stays open or not.

Honestly, I am so sick of people trying to shove their lifestyles down the throats of others all in the name of "saving the community". Grand Rapids is a nice place with Parkway Tropics, Sensations and others showing exposed areolas (which would be banned under the new ordinance), and I suspect it will still be a nice place when the cities legal team gets defeated.

Joe

Civitas, you just made my day. Excellent points. I applaud your respect for your wife - - that is becoming quite a rariety these days. Thanks for the informative post.

I totally agree Snoogit. It oozes of Congress and Special Interest Groups. It's dispicible.

Its law for hire, and its wrong. Its illegal, and it should be stopped at all costs. I wouldn't be surprised if this went to court, gets thrown out, and the donors are investigated.

[joeDowntown]

This is my favorite quote from the GR Press article:

Dar Vander Ark, executive director of the Michigan Decency Action Council, said courts have upheld bans on nudity.

"There is no constitutional right to walk around stark naked in public," he said.

1) A strip club is not public. If I'm not mistaken it is private property.

2) If this is truly the case, how can nudist resorts exist?

[francishsu]

The strip club owners are going to lose this one, as long as the city is willing the see it through. With Barnes v. Glen Theatre as a precedent, and with an even more conservative Supreme Court, they don't have a prayer against the G-string/pasties part of the ordiance.

The key to Barnes v. Glen Theatre was the Supreme Court's perception that wearing a G-string and pasties does not prevent the very slightly covered dancer from delivering the same erotic message as the completely nude one.

Nudist resorts would have a better chance I thikn to challenge a law against it, since their nudity is the fundamental aspect of their expression. But with regards to strip clubs, the past precedent exists and the Supreme Court as it stands today certainly will not overturn Barnes v. Glen Theatre

[snoogit]

The strip club owners are going to lose this one, as long as the city is willing the see it through. With Barnes v. Glen Theatre as a precedent, and with an even more conservative Supreme Court, they don't have a prayer against the G-string/pasties part of the ordiance.

The key to Barnes v. Glen Theatre was the Supreme Court's perception that wearing a G-string and pasties does not prevent the very slightly covered dancer from delivering the same erotic message as the completely nude one.

Nudist resorts would have a better chance I thikn to challenge a law against it, since their nudity is the fundamental aspect of their expression. But with regards to strip clubs, the past precedent exists and the Supreme Court as it stands today certainly will not overturn Barnes v. Glen Theatre

100,000 isnt enough to get to the supreme court, it is enough however to get to the state court, where the club owner has a much bewtter chance of winning.

[francishsu]

100,000 isnt enough to get to the supreme court, it is enough however to get to the state court, where the club owner has a much bewtter chance of winning.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. WZZM, at least, stated that Mark London plans to file a federal lawsuit. So the Michigan courts are not going to be involved if he goes federal.

If he goes state, I don't know whether the State Consitution provides for any freedom of expression rights that would go beyond the U.S. Constitution, and that would apply to this case. Maybe he can find some other avenue to persue other than freedom of expression, but I don't know what else there is.

I did qualify my remark by saying "as long as the city is willing to see it through". Heartwell has said that no taxpayer money will be spent defending a lawsuit. So I guess the owners could start by attacking the other provisions of the ordinance, like the 18 inch platform, etc. first and try to get the private money exhausted. But the opposition may be able to raise more money as well.

[grandrapidsdude123]

100,000 isnt enough to get to the supreme court, it is enough however to get to the state court, where the club owner has a much bewtter chance of winning.

From beginning to end this is about a 500K game for both sides.

Its law for hire, and its wrong. Its illegal, and it should be stopped at all costs. I wouldn't be surprised if this went to court, gets thrown out, and the donors are investigated.

Guesses on who the donors are?

The latest Devos commercial where he talks about revitalizing Grand Rapids, isn't that Judy Rose the Black Hills woman who coordinated this whole thing in it?

[Rizzo]

^See, we can't get all this cool development downtown without a hitch.

The moral degradation of a woman starts when the father isnt there.. If I were the father to any of thoes girl strippers man I would have had a paddle to that ass in a heartbeat. If there were competent fathers they would be helping out their struggling daughters who use the excuse, "well its good money!" Well so too is a regular honest 9-5.

[snoogit]

From beginning to end this is about a 500K game for both sides.

Guesses on who the donors are?

The latest Devos commercial where he talks about revitalizing Grand Rapids, isn't that Judy Rose the Black Hills woman who coordinated this whole thing in it?

AFAIK one of the big donors was Judy Rose's organization.

[grandrapidsdude123]

If I were the father to any of thoes girl strippers man I would have had a paddle to that ass in a heartbeat.

With the new ordinance, the girls will have to be 6 feet away from patrons, so I'm sorry to say you won't be able to do any paddling.

[snoogit]

With the new ordinance, the girls will have to be 6 feet away from patrons, so I'm sorry to say you won't be able to do any paddling.

thats a good one

[Rizzo]

I knew if I didn't clearify I'd be poked at, hopefully you all knew what I ment... Alhtough in this context its pretty funny.

[francishsu]

With the new ordinance, the girls will have to be 6 feet away from patrons, so I'm sorry to say you won't be able to do any paddling.

Don't be too sure about that.

[snoogit]

Don't be too sure about that.

Wheres the speed holes? you cant have a paddle without those

ok, I'm straying too far

[GRDadof3]

^See, we can't get all this cool development downtown without a hitch.

The moral degradation of a woman starts when the father isnt there.. If I were the father to any of thoes girl strippers man I would have had a paddle to that ass in a heartbeat. If there were competent fathers they would be helping out their struggling daughters who use the excuse, "well its good money!" Well so too is a regular honest 9-5.

Last time I checked, you had to be over 18 (or maybe even 21) to be a dancer at these clubs. And when they make 4 - 5 times what they'd make waiting tables, why not. Besides, it's hard work and requires you to stay in pretty good shape. "Oh, but wait, there's a desk job waiting for you honey where you can get fat off the daily "brownies and cookies" that are always sitting in the crappy office kitchen, all while making $12.50 an hour." "We'll protect you from those mean ol strip club owners".

Come on Rizzo, that was a bit extreme.

[francishsu]

Wheres the speed holes? you cant have a paddle without those

Power drill should take care of that.

[snoogit]

Power drill should take care of that.

don't get me started

[Rizzo]

Dad, You really can't have sympothy for woman who's in that line of work. I went to school with a stripper, she had kids, and no options. I thought, man if there's any person that needs a leg up it would be her. Then I woke up and realised that girls in her situation that use the excuse "It's my last option." are kidding themselves. There's plenty of work for young attractive females that sell themselves, its called floor sales -- and I hear there can be good money in that.

[GRDadof3]

Dad, You really can't have sympothy for woman who's in that line of work. I went to school with a stripper, she had kids, and no options. I thought, man if there's any person that needs a leg up it would be her. Then I woke up and realised that girls in her situation that use the excuse "It's my last option." are kidding themselves. There's plenty of work for young attractive females that sell themselves, its called floor sales -- and I hear there can be good money in that.

Sympathy? I don't think sympathy is the right word. A lot of them probably enjoy their job and make damn good money doing it. I have more respect for an "exotic dancer" than I do for some poor shlub who spends 30 years at Delphi mind-numbingly assembling widgets.

Floor sales where, at Express or Art Van? Why do that when you can pull in $500 - $700/night.

[houseofdon]

Let's keep this on track. The debate isn't centered around whether you personally support or oppose strip clubs, or whether or not you think it is an appropriate way for women to make money and men to spend it.

The fact of the matter is that private funds were spent to create city policy. It's a quid pro quo transaction. Without those private dollars, the city would never have considered such an ordinance. I don't care what the issue at hand is, such an action is wrong. I can't believe that most people aren't seeing this for what it is, just because it's wrapped in the guise of a morality issue.

Think outside the box, people! This is absolutely absurd, and shows the immaturity and lack of objectivity by the city and its leadership. If Grand Rapids wants to be treated seriously by the outside, we need to grow up.

[grandrapidsdude123]

Think outside the box, people! This is absolutely absurd, and shows the immaturity and lack of objectivity by the city and its leadership. If Grand Rapids wants to be treated seriously by the outside, we need to grow up.

Amen!

[hood]

I guess you can compare it to lobbyists, do you really want government policy to be written by the a small group of private citizens or companies that do not neccesarily represent the people? Might as well skip elections and sell public seats to the highest bidder.

[civitas]

Last time I checked, you had to be over 18 (or maybe even 21) to be a dancer at these clubs. And when they make 4 - 5 times what they'd make waiting tables, why not. Besides, it's hard work and requires you to stay in pretty good shape. "Oh, but wait, there's a desk job waiting for you honey where you can get fat off the daily "brownies and cookies" that are always sitting in the crappy office kitchen, all while making $12.50 an hour." "We'll protect you from those mean ol strip club owners".

Come on Rizzo, that was a bit extreme.

Dear (fill in your name), I Googled "stripper" last night and read what a guy wrote in 2006 about poor paying office jobs and nude dancing. I completely agree with him and have, therefore, decided to drop out of college. Mr. London says I can start tomorrow. I'll make a lot of money and its great exercise. I think I might even meet some nice guys, but don't worry, I'll always be your "special girl." Love, (fill in your daughter, girl friend, wife, sister, or mother's name)

[francishsu]

Dear (fill in your name), I Googled "stripper" last night and read what a guy wrote in 2006 about poor paying office jobs and nude dancing. I completely agree with him and have, therefore, decided to drop out of college. Mr. London says I can start tomorrow. I'll make a lot of money and its great exercise. I think I might even meet some nice guys, but don't worry, I'll always be your "special girl." Love, (fill in your daughter, girl friend, wife, sister, or mother's name)

Supposing that your grown up daughter did go that route and send the letter to you. Would you disown her if she committed to it?

[civitas]

Let's keep this on track. The debate isn't centered around whether you personally support or oppose strip clubs, or whether or not you think it is an appropriate way for women to make money and men to spend it.

The fact of the matter is that private funds were spent to create city policy. It's a quid pro quo transaction. Without those private dollars, the city would never have considered such an ordinance. I don't care what the issue at hand is, such an action is wrong. I can't believe that most people aren't seeing this for what it is, just because it's wrapped in the guise of a morality issue.

Think outside the box, people! This is absolutely absurd, and shows the immaturity and lack of objectivity by the city and its leadership. If Grand Rapids wants to be treated seriously by the outside, we need to grow up.

What would you do if the City Commission refused to pass a fair, just, necessary and appropriate ordinance because they did not have money to defend themselves against a threatened law suit?