Richmond Coffee House

[Cadeho]

Quiet how? Isn't quiet good when it comes to politics?

[Downtowner]

Well I meant theres not much discussion going on in any of the threads.

[Cadeho]

I'm still confused...

I see some city coffeehouses as the off-topic forum and others it's about issues, political or other.

Maybe the silence on our dedictaed to issues shows how perfect Richmond is these days! Or maybe we don't have enough people? Maybe we don't have but one side to an issue? What's going on Richmond?

[urbanvb]

Since we already have an off-topic thread let's try to keep our Coffee House about government issues or about anything political.

[burt]

I don't often comment on the Law, but after reading this morning that there was a shooting outside of BUFFALO WILD WINGS at 15th and Cary Streets by a thug exiting the place, I'm steamed. Why does Virginia allow gun-toting in restaurants and bars? How far are elected officials prepared to go in placating the NRA?

Edited September 13, 2006 by burt

[jbjust]

If that thug didn't have a concealed carry permit, how would gun control laws have changed anything Burt. It wouldn't hurt for you to educate yourself on the correlation nationwide between crime and the stringency of gun control laws.

D.C. has an absolute ban on handgun ownership -- really helps out there doesn't it?

[burt]

If that thug didn't have a concealed carry permit, how would gun control laws have changed anything Burt. It wouldn't hurt for you to educate yourself on the correlation nationwide between crime and the stringency of gun control laws.

D.C. has an absolute ban on handgun ownership -- really helps out there doesn't it?

Now hold on. I didn't say that Virginia is the only permissive state about gun toting (concealed permit or no).

And are there any statistics to prove that DC and other areas are NOT better off with the ban in place? I think Mayor Bloomberg and Governor Pataki would argue that point with you.

Maybe Guy will move this discussion to the Coffee House thread.

[urbanvb]

moved.

[mclawsdrive]

Among the more affluent countries of the world.. ie. Europe, Japan, Canada etc, the United states has some of the weakest gun controls and the highest murder rate. How's that for a corrolation. The reason that cities like DC have a higher murder rate isn't because people arent allowed to carry around handguns. Its because DC is in a country full of guns, which are easy to sneak into the city. This contrasts with a city such as London, which has a far lower murder rate and is located in a country where guns are severely restricted.

[Cadeho]

You mix that with types of people... those who think they can settle every argument with a gun... that somehow, a gun makes them superior...

[eandslee]

Among the more affluent countries of the world.. ie. Europe, Japan, Canada etc, the United states has some of the weakest gun controls and the highest murder rate. How's that for a corrolation. The reason that cities like DC have a higher murder rate isn't because people arent allowed to carry around handguns. Its because DC is in a country full of guns, which are easy to sneak into the city. This contrasts with a city such as London, which has a far lower murder rate and is located in a country where guns are severely restricted.

Yeah, but as much as I hate to say it, guns are not going anywhere from the American society. For goodness sakes, it was one of the first Bill of Rights!

[burt]

Yeah, but as much as I hate to say it, guns are not going anywhere from the American society. For goodness sakes, it was one of the first Bill of Rights!

But Eric. Do they have to allow them in bars? It's not like the frontier days anymore - it's a far more dangerous world.

[Cadeho]

We don't have spittoons anymore do we?

Isn't there a concealed weapon law in Va that allows guns in public?

[eandslee]

But Eric. Do they have to allow them in bars? It's not like the frontier days anymore - it's a far more dangerous world.

Oh, you're preaching to the choir...I don't own a gun, nor do I like guns personally, but I just know a lot of people who do and they are big-time gun lovers - I just know that they will never give them up. You're right though, they shouldn't bring them to bars. There is a small difference between the folks I know who love guns and the folks who are stupid enough to bring guns to bars and that is that the people I know respect guns and wouldn't do such as thing as bring them to public places like bars.

[rusthebuss]

I don't often comment on the Law, but after reading this morning that there was a shooting outside of BUFFALO WILD WINGS at 15th and Cary Streets by a thug exiting the place, I'm steamed. Why does Virginia allow gun-toting in restaurants and bars? How far are elected officials prepared to go in placating the NRA?

Most of those gun toting thugs aren't carrying guns legal anyways. If you took all the guns away do you really think that thugs can't still get guns? Va laws that allow you to carry is why I believe crime isn't as bad as it could be around the state. I have assault rifles and a couple glocks but I'm not going around and shooting places up. I don't want America to turn into a Nazi Germany. One of the first things Hitler did was taking guns away from the civilians. I don't think its fair to blame citizens that legally conceal weapons for what a thug does. Thugs don't care about the laws and has absolutely no respect for the laws.

[mercuex]

Rus is right. You know that assault weapons ban that sunsetted not long ago? Didn't make a bit of difference in the crime rates. Look it up. That's why no one cared to renew it. How about the Bay Cities? Washington DC? Both have highly restrictive gun laws and yet also have award-winning homicide rates. And what about the school shooting that just occurred in Montreal - the most European city on the continent? Or what about Norway, Switzerland, or Finland? All countries with high rates of firearm ownership and low homicide rates. You can't parade statistics around and make such dramatic inferences.

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"

Adolf Hitler [1935]

Here's the thing: a government that doesn't trust its populous is the one that restricts its ability to defend itself. The founding fathers knew this and that is why it's the second amendment, only after free speech. Does the state have the right to make a law on gun ownership that would be equally well suited in both Mississipi and Minnesota (similar gun laws but very different levels of violence)? If not, how about between Roanoke and Richmond? Or even Carytown and the Fan?

We should not encourage greater centralization (and thus bureaucratization) that coerces an entire population (some 300 million) with wildly varying situations into uniformity. That would be both incongruent as well as coercive. The decision must ultimately lie with the consenting adult. And as Rus rightly points out, many of the weapons used for violence are not obtained legally. If one really wants to kill another, guns are hardly the instrument with a monopoloy on dealing death.

It's like this thing with terrorism. Are our airlines really safer now?? The 9/11 hijackers attacked with box cutters, so we ban sharp objects. Then Richard Reid had his bomb shoes, so we make everyone take off their shoes. And recently after the near-catastrophe with the trans-atlantic flights, you can't even bring shampoo aboard. And at the same time, it's a well-known fact that much of that kind of stuff being brought aboard isn't even detected.

Of course there are an infinite number of ways to bring about danger and terror to an airplane, and we will never be able to screen them all. When will we learn that it's the motivated person who is the real weapon, and not the box cutter?

[burt]

Rus, Eric and Mercuex, though I am anti-gun, PERIOD, I'm smart enough to know that it's a Constitutional right for one to own and bear arms.

What I'm arguing here is that gun toters should have to check their Glocks at the door if they wish to enter a bar or restaurant. For one thing, no illegal gun carrier is likely to surrender his unlicensed arms to the hat check girl, and that alone will keep a lot of thugs out.

[mclawsdrive]

I am infuriated at the unconstitutional restrictions on my right to bear arms! Why am I not allowed to possess my own 'newkyuhlar' (he he) warhead? After all, at the time of the writing of the constitution, muzzle-loading muskets were the most advanced personal firearm. Should I now not be able to walk the streets with a rocket launcher? How is it not guaranteed in the constitution?

The other question is not which weapons are constitutionally protected, but whether these weapons should be registered and their sale monitored. As I understand it, many murderers obtain their guns at gun shows where their purchase isn't tracked. Kids like the Columbine shooters can leave a gun show well armed without being ID'd or having any sort of background check. I had to have a background check for my job, many apartment complexes run criminal background checks. Why is it that the sale of guns is less uniformly regulated than the sale of liquor or automobiles.

This is why so many guns used in crimes aren

[burt]

Very well spoken, McLaw.

[Cadeho]

Maybe taxes should be raised on bullets... I think it's been argued before. but there are so many out there, it'd be useless.

[rusthebuss]

I am infuriated at the unconstitutional restrictions on my right to bear arms! Why am I not allowed to possess my own 'newkyuhlar' (he he) warhead? After all, at the time of the writing of the constitution, muzzle-loading muskets were the most advanced personal firearm. Should I now not be able to walk the streets with a rocket launcher? How is it not guaranteed in the constitution?

The other question is not which weapons are constitutionally protected, but whether these weapons should be registered and their sale monitored. As I understand it, many murderers obtain their guns at gun shows where their purchase isn't tracked. Kids like the Columbine shooters can leave a gun show well armed without being ID'd or having any sort of background check. I had to have a background check for my job, many apartment complexes run criminal background checks. Why is it that the sale of guns is less uniformly regulated than the sale of liquor or automobiles.

This is why so many guns used in crimes aren

[erdogs]

You say that if you limit guns it would reduce crime. That is wrong! If you can smuggle illegals across the boarder with heroin and cocaine, you can smuggle guns. You just take guns away from legal citizens. Most people that have alot of guns have it for a hobby and never hurt anyone unless provoked. Also, its not that easy to walk out of a gun show with a gun. Look at Britain for example. They took their guns away and crime went up 150%. Another point is the bar tender going to examine everyone that walks through the door? The thugs are sly and know how to conceal. You would just disarm the one person that could stop the thug. Most people that carry are responsible and get a very bad rap. Burt, may I ask why you are so anti-gun? Guns are tools and people kill not the gun. I can kill you with a screw driver. Are you going to ban screw drivers? What about the people that are killed by cars? Is that going to be banned as well? People kill not the guns, its a tool. I'm not trying to offend peoples beliefs but look at fertilzer being used to bomb the OKC federal building. Its what is someones heart as to what they want to do.

That was on point! Guns are not the problem. The problem is our glorification of violence from the Mob to street gangs. Some people watch Sapranos and are entertained. Then you have those who watch it and want to emulate it. The Sapronos is not the problem. The individual is the problem. The parents that didn't teach them whats right is the problem. Too many people in this country have no respect for other people or whats right. Respect for other people, even those I don't like, is what keeps me grounded.

The great philosopher Archie Bunker once said in reference to people killed from guns, "Would you feel better if they were trone out of windows".

[burt]

Ice picks, knives and screw drivers are made for specific peaceful uses. Guns are manufactured to maim and kill.

Edited September 15, 2006 by burt

[erdogs]

A gun does what you make it do.

[rusthebuss]

Ice picks, knives and screw drivers are made for specific peaceful uses. Guns are manufactured to maim and kill.

So you are against hunting and such?

My point about those other instuments is that its the person behind them that make them into a tool to be violent. I've seen lexan made into a weapon in prision. People kill people. Alot of guns are designed for hunting and to eliminate the people that are evil.