Long Term Rail and CATS Transit Plans

[monsoon]

Just for reference the current voting members of the MTC are:

• Mayor of Charlotte

• Mayor of Huntersville

• Mayor of Cornelius

• Mayor of Mint Hill

• Mayor of Pineville

• Mayor of Matthews

• Mayor of Davidson

• Head of the Mecklenburg County Council

• Member from the NCDOT

It's this bunch, each gets one vote, that will decide this fall which lines will be built, which alternatives will implemented (LRT vs BRT), and the schedule for building each line. By that time the various CATS project managers for each of the proposals will have submitted their proposals to Ron Tober who will make the final recommendations to the MTC and supposidly they will use this information to make their decision.

Given that the North Line already has 4 of the 5 votes needed to move forward, I would say that there is a pretty good chance it will be the next one out of the gate.

[dubone]

That's right, even if they are confident, nothing but the South line is a done deal at this point.

I still think there is much reason to be confident about the streetcar, as they are much cheaper than the other lines, and have solid ridership, and are squarely within the Small Starts program parameters.

But still, not a done deal.

[monsoon]

I still there there is much reason be confident about the streetcar, as they are much cheaper than the other lines, and have solid ridership, and are squarely within the Small Starts program parameters.

BTW, Bush has cut the Small Starts funding from $250M to just $100M which is to be shared by all of the USA. I would not hold your breath that any of this mulah is going to show up in Charlotte. The MTC might have to look at other ideas for financing such as selling bonds backed by the transit tax to get these projects off the ground.

[dubone]

The Bush Small Starts cuts to $100m will not be as big a problem as it sounds, although it is a big deal. It is only expected to be in its early years, so they will add to it over time. Also, if the streetcar costs $150m, $75m would be expected from the FTA. Some millions have already been paid from the federal gov't, and the rest would be paid over a period of years. I was told at the last streetcar meeting that there aren't many small starts projects in the US that are as far along in engineering as the Charlotte center city streetcar line. That means that there might only be a hand full of projects up for funding in 2006, and with payments over 3-5 years, we might only need ~15m this year. The key will be getting the promise for funding over time.

As for the N line, I'm only recounting what was said at the last MTC meeting. They said right now, they estimate a rating of Low for cost effectiveness. They said that might change if TOD adds riders. It might be typical of commuter rail, but that doesn't mean it will get funding over a streetcar or LRT system that has lower costs/daily rider.

Well, the NE might actually be improving its chances, because it is adding 2200 daily riders, and lowering its cost by going on UNCC's campus. I agree it is not likely to see the light of day for a number of years, (and almost certainly won't be the next line) but it still has a large chance to be built. The cost/daily rider is a significant metric.

As for the MTC votes, I think there is an underestimation of the rationality of the regional mayors. I am certain that they will heavily favor the N line, and I don't blame them. But they will not ignore obvious numbers simply because a line is only within Charlotte versus within their town.

If the N line can't get federal funds this year (regardless if because of Iraq, or Bush, or the viability of the line itself), the MTC will likely push a different line that has a better chance of getting funds. That is what they did when they pushed the S line to be first.

That said, my hope is that they revise their N line ridership numbers upward as part of the economic development/TOD, and push both the N line and the center city streetcar to go next simultaneously.

[monsoon]

In regards to the University line, it does have the advantage of being just an extension of the South Line. I could see that one way to build out this line is little by little adding just a couple of stations at the time. This would allow the capital costs to be spread over a number of years and possibly could be a way to get it built considering current projection in 2006 dollars is over $600M.

[hinsp0]

Please tell me that UNCC professor isn't David Hartgen.

UNCC professors aren't the most credible sources. And everyone knows the old saying about quiters...

No offense to anyone who does teach or who attended UNCC. I just hate to hear this kind of defeatism from UNCC, especially considering that, from what I hear, the University is working so hard to enter the upper echelon of NC universities. This rhetoric does nothing positive for the greater Charlotte area.

[MZT]

UNCC professors [like David Hartgen] aren't the most credible sources. And everyone knows the old saying about quiters...

No offense to anyone who does teach or who attended UNCC.

Well I suppose Tara could have called Louis Guignard for quotes too, for maximum "local gadfly effect".

[soccer1guy_99]

II have been reading this board but have never posted so bear with me. I felt this elicited at least a response because I have some knowledge both on this professor, and UNC-Charlotte in general.

UNCC professors aren't the most credible sources. And everyone knows the old saying about quiters...

No offense to anyone who does teach or who attended UNCC.

This professor in no way speaks for the majority of his department. He typically does anything to make North Carolina, and mass-transit look bad. His studies are not well respected, and tend to only be published by biased journals. If you check out this link the N&O shows some of the flaws in his studies. http://www.newsobserver.com/248/story/437527.html

On the other hand there are many people at UNC-Charlotte working hard for transit. Dr. Hartgen is no longer associated with the transportation policy center, which it seems is not a coincidence. Dennis Rash, executive-in-residence at the center has done work for mass transit locally. Do not allow one professor affect your opinion of a university. UNC-Charlotte has faculty working hard on positive transit strategies. The article in question was obviously not targeting these voices, or they would have spoken with the Transportation Center, not a professor with an agenda. Sorry if this was too long, just did not want any misperceptions about the geography department and its work on transit.

[e2ksj3]

^ I have to agree with soccer1guy_99, he definetly doesn't represent the whole department. I had class with Hartgen and you could tell he was "anti-transit" by his comments in class by calling a lot of the new development in uptown, "yuppie condos" and saying "who wants to live above a store", before reading any of his studies. Although, some of the stuff that he said makes sense, IMHO, he didn't really offer a real solution after pointing out the flaws. He fails to point out the successful transit systems, like Portland's MAX and Dallas' DART.

[hinsp0]

^ I have to agree with soccer1guy_99, he definetly doesn't represent the whole department. I had class with Hartgen and you could tell he was "anti-transit" by his comments in class by calling a lot of the new development in uptown, "yuppie condos" and saying "who wants to live above a store", before reading any of his studies. Although, some of the stuff that he said makes sense, IMHO, he didn't really offer a real solution after pointing out the flaws. He fails to point out the successful transit systems, like Portland's MAX and Dallas' DART.

It'd be nice to hear more from the pro-transit voices at UNCC... does anyone have information about those folks? Thanks

[soccer1guy_99]

It'd be nice to hear more from the pro-transit voices at UNCC... does anyone have information about those folks? Thanks

Hinsp0, in my opinion the person working the hardest at UNC-Charlotte on mass transit is probably Dennis Rash, who is an executive in residence at the transportation policy center. He has done a lot of work on mass transit. If you search his name you will see a few speeches he gave that talked about Charlotte

[ChiefJoJo]

This question was from another thread:

If however the Feds turned it down and the MTA decided to build it anyway from local funding, would the state still kick in 25%?

I got word that it would depend on upper NCDOT management and the NC Board of Transportation whether to fund the SFFGA. Regardless, the grant would be capped at 25% for sure.

[dubone]

That is both ashame and predictable, but thanks for the info.

[monsoon]

So today was Dump the Pump day which means Channel 18 makes Brien Blakely ride the bus instead of driving his SUV from his downtown residence to the station out on Independence. His report was fairly incomprehensible but basically he said it was better to drive the SUV than to take the CATS bus. (mainly because he didn't have the correct change and had to wait an extra 30 minutes)

[turbocraig]

There's an editorial by David Hartgen in next week's CBJ calling for a stop on light rail (surprise). You can read it for yourself online soon enough, but some of the counterpoints he attempts to make have no substance. Such as this little gem: *Set a goal for reducing congestion, not just slowing growth, and rethink our plan so that it meets that goal..." Oh! Is that all we need to do? Set a goal? Who knew simply setting a goal was the answer all along? It's been staring us in the face this whole time. I wonder what other worldly woes could be solved by setting a goal. Too bad there's no meat behind the sentence. I think they haven't cured cancer yet because they never set a goal.

At least the byline acknowledges that his book, "Policy versus Performance: Directions for North Carolina's Largest Transit Systems" was written specifically for the John Locke Foundation.

[Charlotte_native]

At least the byline acknowledges that his book, "Policy versus Performance: Directions for North Carolina's Largest Transit Systems" was written specifically for the John Locke Foundation.

Boy the JL foundation has been busy this week. Bashing convention centers, rail lines...what else?

So what does the sentence about setting a goal and then working towards it say that hasn't been said before. Isn't setting a goal of providing mass transportation and then implementing it and seeing the explosion of projects around said transportation just that?

How will they react when the rail is full of riders and used? I guess they will be dissappointed rather than thinking, "great, it worked..."

Do any of these folks think beyond today and tomorrow? Maybe down the line 10 or 20 years when building rail systems will be much harder but much more necessary?

[monsoon]

This topic is archived. Please continue the discussion in this thread.