Long Term Rail and CATS Transit Plans

[uptownliving]

One of those buildings on N Tryon between 36th and downtown was torn down the other day....no word on what is going to replace the torn down building.

[ilzho]

Does anybody know when the Craighead road RR crossing will be closed?

Thank you

David

[Neo]

When is construction supposed to start on the last leg of I-485, the one that includes the I-85N interchange?

[JunktionFET]

Charlotte's proposed West Corridor is an interesting case that has a lot of support and they seem to have their act together much more than the troubled Southeast Corridor. It will connect the airport to Center City. The original plans called for ROW acquisition to occur in 2008 and construction in 2010. Whether or not that actually occurs on schedule is dependent on funding of course, but that isn't my point right now...

The second study on the West Corridor was supposed to examine the possibility for Light Rail or BRT. Lately there has been a strong push to examine the possibility for a streetcar line instead. The push has been strong enough that as of now, the MTC will examine that technology along with Light Rail and BRT. If the West Corridor ends up using streetcar technology, it will be one of two such lines heading west out of the Center City. The Trade St/Beatties Ford Rd line thru JCSU will utilize streetcar technology as well of course.

Here is the latest map showing the alignment of the West Corridor. Whether it's streetcar, Light Rail, or BRT, it all seems to follow Wilkinson Blvd all the way out to I-485. It would be nice if a deal could be struck with Norfolk Southern to use that rail ROW, but that would probably eliminate any kind of street car or light rail vehicle and leave only DMUs or some other kind of Heavy Rail Transit.

I am hopeful that one of the two rail options is built instead of BRT. The economic stimulation that comes from the presence of a rail transit line will go a long way in helping out that side of the city. There is a great deal of potential there, what with the redevelopment proposals on Wilkinson, etc.

Here's one of the site-specific study maps along the West Corridor--the Queensgate Station

^Here they are studying one of two possible station locations which would best serve the surrounding residential and help urbanize that Super Walmart atrocity. I can't believe I just said "urbanize" and "Walmart" in the same sentence Here is their preliminary summary for that particular study area:

STATION CHARACTERISTICS

Location A: Intersection of Ashley Road and Wilkinson Blvd.

[dubone]

i had never that streetcar was being discussed on that corridor but i really like the idea a lot. Not only does it give a fixed route system to the west side and airport, but also to Uptown, Wesley Heights, and West Morehead. I personally like the Mint Street route, as it supports the Stadium, redevelopment around the new park, and puts the streetcar line within blocks of the wachovia campus.

Streetcar will be much easier to pay for, too, considering they don't need to fund stations. If they need a little more long-term reserves to cover the difference, I would be for cancelling the uptown streetcar loop. If they still have a gap, i think the airport could certainly cover some of it, too, maybe building the whole portion between billy graham, 485, and on their land.

[JunktionFET]

Streetcar will be much easier to pay for, too, considering they don't need to fund stations.

Actually the relative low cost of a streetcar is one of the advantages they cite--in this instance it would cost far less to implement than Light Rail, and it would stimulate the area far more than BRT.

Like the Central Ave and Trade St streetcar lines, the West Corridor would use modern streetcars that can be operated in multiple car configurations (tandem cars, or perhaps more if demand is high). It would operate in its own ROW adjacent to Wilkinson Blvd.

Here is a conceptual rendering of a rapid transit station along the West Corridor

If they need a little more long-term reserves to cover the difference, I would be for cancelling the uptown streetcar loop.

True, the loop is probably the least critical part of the plan. Uptown is very walkable and the Goldrush seems to handle the loop duties pretty well so far. Of course since it is the very last project proposed in the 2025 plan, it probably won't syphon much money from the near-term projects.

I agree that airport money should help to fund parts of the West Corridor, especially since a lot of the riders on the line will be going to and from the airport.

[OE-305]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of having a Streetcar versus Light Rail (besides cost). Is light rail quicker? Can the streetcar (trolley basically) make more frequent stops along the way? I personally think this route is more important than the north, northest and southeast lines following the south route.

[JunktionFET]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of having a Streetcar versus Light Rail (besides cost).  Is light rail quicker?  Can the streetcar (trolley basically) make more frequent stops along the way?  I personally think this route is more important than the north, northest and southeast lines following the south route.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In this particular situation, the Streetcar option would end up being a bit slower than the Light Rail option. However the Streetcar can generally make more stops along the way and it has a more subjectively street-friendly appeal. The reduced speed is not a big deal though--the West Corridor is shorter than the South, the Northeast, and definitely the North, and Streetcar lines can handle very brief headways with ease--meaning that train frequency can be extremely high if demand calls for it.

The Streetcar would be in its own right of way, but it would be essentially right there at street level--either elevated about a 6-12 inches or separated by a stubby curb-like buffer, all in an effort to prevent motorists from crossing over. There is sufficient space in the Wilkinson Blvd corridor to accomodate a Streetcar line with minimal property acquisition.

The Light Rail option would feature more aggressive separation and it requires more space--the money needed to acquire property and extra concrete would really jack up the pricetag. It would definitely go a bit faster though. From a technical standpoint I like the Light Rail option more, and would certainly never object if it is the technology selected... But the more I consider the Modern Streetcar option, the more I like it. I think both options are more appropriate than BRT.

[orulz]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of having a Streetcar versus Light Rail (besides cost).  Is light rail quicker?  Can the streetcar (trolley basically) make more frequent stops along the way?  I personally think this route is more important than the north, northest and southeast lines following the south route.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Streetcars are MUCH slower than light rail. Streetcars usually travel in the same ROW as automobiles, and often share lanes with vehicle traffic. Streetcars obey the same stoplights that automobiles do, as well.

LRT can either have a dedicated, independent ROW, or it can run on a street. In either case, however, it's seperated from vehicle traffic in some manner. In an independent ROW, an LRT system would have gates and flashers at any grade crossing. LRT running in the median of a street with intersections and stoplights will at least have some form of signal pre-emption to avoid getting "stuck in traffic" so to speak.

Since streetcars often run in mixed traffic and are subject to the same traffic signals as automobiles, they should not be counted as "rapid transit." In fact, buses are often faster since they can maneuver around things that are in the way. For a heavily used trunk line like the west corridor, LRT is clearly the appropriate choice. For relatively short, narrow, and dense corridors like Elizabeth/Central and Beatties Ford, streetcars are excellent because they don't pollute, require less maintenance, ride more smoothly, and fit more people than buses. But it just doesn't work well as a longer-haul transit line.

Finally, LRT and streetcar systems can be compatible with each other. Streetcars can run on LRT tracks; conversely, LRVs can run in mixed traffic as well. You'll often find that LRT systems are run more like streetcars in the CBD, because there's not enough space to have a separated ROW. Once they leave the CBD and there's some more breathing room, then they change to a dedicated or separated ROW.

In Charlotte's case, If the southeast and west corridors are constructed with LRT, they could be full-fledged LRT outside of the 277 loop, but they could run through uptown on the proposed Trade St. streetcar line. If at some point the light rail becomes too popular (long trains) or the street gets too crowded and slow, then the city could dig a subway underneath Trade and move the LRT down there. But in the meantime, the Trade St. Streetcar would allow both lines to access all parts of uptown. That's actually a similar setup to what Portland is considering right now.

[JunktionFET]

In Charlotte's case, If the southeast and west corridors are constructed with LRT, they could be full-fledged LRT outside of the 277 loop, but they could run through uptown on the proposed Trade St. streetcar line.

It would appear the terms Streetcar and Light Rail Vehicle are interchangable to a degree, so I suppose each city is going to use the terms a bit differently. But one could say that this so-called "Streetcar" option is literally more of a hybrid concept.

What has been discussed for the West Corridor is a streetcar that would not occupy a lane of traffic live with automobiles on Wilkinson, but the tracks would be aligned as a part of the road--thus it still qualifies as a streetcar. Imagine an HOV lane that only the streetcar can use... something like that.

It would cross intersections and be subject to stoplights--just like other traffic. But an idea out there is to synchronize the trains with the extensive traffic control system in Charlotte. Stoplight timing could be very favorable for many of the trains--they could avoid "catching every light", so to speak. A similar idea was discussed for use with one of the BRT alternatives, since it would also be subject to traffic lights.

Though it is not stated specifically, I'd wager that the only time where it would mix with traffic in lane and at grade as a rule would be inside Uptown, but I suspect there would be special lane restrictions in effect at times throughout the day, at least during the time that the Streetcar line is active.

Overall this would probably end up being quite a bit faster than a vintage style "mixer" streetcar, but still slower than an all out Light Rail system. For comparison, the Light Rail option talked about is a separated affair for sure--with grade separated crossings in some places and crossing gates in others... more like a real passenger train.

Either way, these rail based options have a greater chance of stimulating the corridor more than BRT. The success of the Charlotte Trolley and the effect it's had on the neighborhood has changed some attitudes since the 2025 plan was drafted.

On another note, I still don't think LRT will be applied to the Southeast Corridor, but I suppose we'll see. One thing is for sure, it will be interesting to watch that one unfold.

If at some point the light rail becomes too popular (long trains) or the street gets too crowded and slow, then the city could dig a subway underneath Trade and move the LRT down there.

Wouldn't that be something? Who knows... someday in the future CATS may have to do that. In digging the subway, I bet they would find some gold in the veins of quartz. Perhaps it could help fund the project?

[atlrvr]

I just spoke with the Southeast Transit Corridor project manger for about 15 minutes and grilled him about everything I could......he still couldn't say if they were leaning one way or the other, but said they were equally likely. Regardless, it looks like the line will go down Elizabeth, to Independence, then go down the left side of the the expressway and have a stop at Pecan....then it will go to the median all the way out to Village Lake.....there it will shift away from Independence down either the Northeast Pkwy. or Independence Point Pkwy.......Northeasy is better for redevlopment, but Indepence Point is a straighter/faster trip.....finally, they would like to cross I-485 and terminate by CPCC, but funding is going to be tight, and that area has to have access improved for a park-and-ride lot......hopefully Hendrick will do this with their new auto mall.

[UptownJ]

thanks for the update

[JunktionFET]

I was checking out the Mecklenburg-Union MPO 2030 plan (still open for public comment it seems), and they talk about a new commuter rail line specifically from the proposed multimodal station in uptown Charlotte to Rock Hill SC as part of the 25 year plan.

The Charlotte Multimodal station is situated around an NS line that travels southwest out of Uptown and then splits--one leg goes west into Gastonia, the other turns south. This south split joins what will be the South LRT line a bit south of Tyvola. I assume that this is the corridor they speak of, it would certainly be the most cost effective if some kind of ROW deal can be struck. I wouldn't think the corridor is very active today, and who knows what it would be like in the 25 year span of the plan.

It mentioned that the Rock Hill-Fort Mill Transportation Study has worked with support from CATS on things like this. Perhaps if support for this line were to increase from Rock Hill and SCDOT, we could see this commuter line put on a more aggressive schedule. Judging by comments heard here, it sounds as though commuters from Rock Hill would appreciate such a line.

In addition to Rock Hill, I believe that a Monroe commuter rail line would be a wise move for a number of reasons, and I wonder why it has never been discussed? I know that southeast rail corridor is pretty busy, maybe that's it. Or maybe Monroe and Union County just aren't interested.

If the starter commuter rail line in Nashville is successful next spring, maybe it will help catalyze more support from Rock Hill and perhaps Monroe for commuter lines.

[atlrvr]

In speaking with the SE corridor head, the indication was that 1) the line is too busy. 2) CSX isn't interested in sharing 3) there isn't enough room in the ROW to add parallel tracks.......I personally think it's a shame, because that line seems to make the most sense to me.

[JunktionFET]

I share your feelings--that is a perfect place to see Commuter Rail, but I guess it just isn't in the cards.

So for the time being, I guess the only hope for fixed guideway transit in the southeast is the LRT option down Independence.

[dubone]

If that is indicated in the 25 year plan, i'd bet that is the high speed passenger rail to atlanta. I don't think it is telling us something new about a commuter rail to gastonia.

[JunktionFET]

If that is indicated in the 25 year plan, i'd bet that is the high speed passenger rail to atlanta.  I don't think it is telling us something new about a commuter rail to gastonia.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Err, what?

Who said anything about commuter rail to the gas house? Or high speed rail?

[dubone]

hahaha. that is sad that i misread that so much. I see now that it said Rock Hill. I just got glasses for the first time today (seriously), so i guess i kind of glazed over that word.

[JunktionFET]

hahaha.  that is sad that i misread that so much.  I see now that it said Rock Hill.  I just got glasses for the first time today (seriously), so i guess i kind of glazed over that word.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hahaha, I figured it was a misread, but I couldn't resist the temptation to use the expression "The Gas House" in a real sentence

[monsoon]

If that is indicated in the 25 year plan, i'd bet that is the high speed passenger rail to atlanta.  I don't think it is telling us something new about a commuter rail to gastonia.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Georgia is so anti-rail, I don't think we will be seeing high speed trains there anytime in the foreseeable future.

[monsoon]

Does anyone know the top attainable speeds of these trains. Once, I read in a

forum where someone was complaining about how slow the light rail trains are in Portland. Is heavy rail faster than light rail or vice versa? I know that MARTA goes pretty fast.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heavy rail is indeed fast, but it mostly depends upon the state of the tracks. The Metro in DC is the fastest with unofficial speeds exceeding 75mph (this violates the speed limits the drivers are supposed to follow)

I believe the trains in the proposed Charlotte system are capiable of 55mph, but because of a number of reasons, including grade crossings, they will have an effective speed of 25-35mph. During most of the day it will be faster to drive the route.

[SmellyCat]

Unless you're Amtrak, operating in mixed traffic on tracks owned by antagonistic freight railroads...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point. Does Amtrak share the Norfolk Southern line which runs past Gateway Village and the Stadium? Since I live near there, I see and hear the freight trains ALL the time, but unless I was seeing things (a distinct possibility), I saw an Amtrak train run by the other night. That's the first time I've seen an Amtrak train on that track.

[dubone]

very true. it is hard to time the trains to cohabitate, when one of them is stopped for hours next to a factory, or for the he|| of it.

[monsoon]

very true.  it is hard to time the trains to cohabitate, when one of them is stopped for hours next to a factory, or for the he|| of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very true. I watched the a train stop on Graham street once (and hence shutting down the traffic) so the conductors and engineers could go and get some BBQ at the Wild Pig BBQ house.

[Raintree21]

All this talk about the South West corridor. Here's a pic of the north east corridor.

North East Corridor

Also posted in the 485 forum since they deal with both areas.