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Long Term Rail and CATS Transit Plans


monsoon

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er, we won't know until 2006 when MTC gets the new studies.  But we can expect some politics will get involved at the MTC level  on which part of the town will get what.

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and we'll have yet another thread that revolves around race :), considering the two minority-dominated quadrants of town are the least likely to get rail at the moment.

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Ridership may be higher on the Independence line. But that may be to get from Peak Fitness to Sam's Club or Dave's Bridal Mart. I want a line that will ultimately be most beneficial to the urban core and I believe that line is the west corridor.

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Ridership may be higher on the Independence line.  But that may be to get from Peak Fitness to Sam's Club or Dave's Bridal Mart.  I want a line that will ultimately be most beneficial to the urban core and I believe that line is the west corridor.

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i agree with you pops. The west line is so short, but will be so visible and important for bringing all those biz execs to the new ritz carleton... streetcar or lightrail should definitely be built.

(i'm a little bit more for streetcar because there are lower costs, but it still has the better image and the fixed-guideway, which is a better impetus for economic development)

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Northeast and Independence have about the same length given Independence is a mile or two longer. Northeast is about 14 miles while Independence is about 16 miles. But Northeast has a better chance of built sooner because it will view by the FTA as an extension of the South LRT, an extension goes through less hassle than a new build.

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One thing I don't know why CATS hasn't mentioned, or at least publically, is why they wouldn't run the West line as an extension of the SouthEast line as a streetcar it is cheaper and easier......that what the Green Line in Boston essentially is, light rail that runs as a subway in Back Bay/Downtown, and as a street car in Brighton/Fenway/Brookline/Newton......

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As a person who lives on Providence Road in southeast Charlotte and having to fight that rush hour traffic, to me the most sensible line would be from Weddington, Union County as this seems to be where most of the Uptown workers live anyway. I know already though that there is no feasible place to put this line, but there's just gotta be I tell you. Where are all you engineers out there? Come up with something quick!

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and we'll have yet another thread that revolves around race :), considering the two minority-dominated quadrants of town are the least likely to get rail at the moment.

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The south corridor runs down south blvd. which is very much minority dominated.

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The south corridor runs down south blvd. which is very much minority dominated.

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i know. it was just a flippant comment.

although i have heard the argument used by the SE and W politicians, that they weren't as wealthy or white as the southern and northern parts of the counties...

(i don't agree with the argument, btw).

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Considering that massive projects like this usually run over budget, I suspect the Northeast line will end at Mallard Creek. How will they find money to cross 485 on the north, if they could not find it to cross 485 in the south? I would think Carolina Place and Carowinds would be more compelling ridership draws, than sporadic Verizon Wireless events.

I also think 27th street station will not be built. The industrial cleanup cost of the land around there will prohibit development for a while.

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Considering that massive projects like this usually run over budget, I suspect the Northeast line will end at Mallard Creek. How will they find money to cross 485 on the north, if they could not find it to cross 485 in the south?

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the northeast line may have an arch-angel in Mr. Bruton Smith, as he seems quite willing to throw private money at getting a rail connection between downtown and lowes motor speedway. the NE line will benefit from his desire to get it done fast.

The difference in cross 485 in the south is that pineville decided it didn't want the 485 park and ride traffic... there isn't a municipality in the northeast that would have similar political concerns or power to try to stop the line short of 485.

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If you look at CATS presentations and meetings about the NE LRT, there are plans to end the line just before I-485 if money or engineering problems become an issue. The reason CATS decided not to bring light rail into Pineville is because the Mayor of Pineville advised the MTC not to vote for it. Money wasn't an issue, because look at how many times the project ballooned, from $212M in 1998, $330M in 2000, $371 in 2003 and $399 in 2004 and $427 now and we're still going to let it be built.

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If you look at CATS presentations and meetings about the NE LRT, there are plans to end the line just before I-485 if money or engineering problems become an issue. The reason CATS decided not to bring light rail into Pineville is because the Mayor of Pineville advised the MTC not to vote for it. Money wasn't an issue, because look at how many times the project ballooned, from $212M in 1998, $330M in 2000, $371 in 2003 and $399 in 2004 and $427 now and we're still going to let it be built.

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Money is always an issue. Remember that 3/4ths of the money that is building the South LRT is coming from the State and Feds. (50% from the Feds) If the CLT system goes way over budget and/or ridership stinks, then it will most certainly be an issue when CLT shows up again at the Federal and State money trough for funds to build the other lines. CLT has very stiff competition for these funds from other cities and if we screw it up, you can bet they will make an issue out of it.

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I wasn't trying to say money isn't an issue that like, the point was, the South LRT cost projected ballooned many times, and it still be able to receive funding. Charlotte barely made it to recieve funding, the ridership projections didn't justify the cost, it was rated medium-low for ridership. The only thing that it recieved high marks for was the land use plan. When the Federal fiscal budget was announced, only four cities recieved new build funding, Phoneix, Pittsburg and Charlotte, those three were all rated medium-low for ridership. Right now every single corridor besides the streetcar lines and Independence's ridership will not justify for a high rating for projected ridership in a new build project. Projected 2025 ridership for Northeast is only 16,000 and it's a few miles longer than the South, but since it is viewed as an extension of the South, that will help further its chance. Independence, no matter what transit mode, it will have a great chance of recieving funding as it is projected to have 27,000 riders. The remaining corridors all have under 10,000 riders and they will have a tougher competition.

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http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/new...al/12243636.htm

i'm really glad that CATS is doing what it can to reduce expensive components of the transit designs for the other corridor. I think if they rule out the expensive, but easier options, like a bridge over intersections, the engineers can still solve the problems with less expensive, more creative solutions.

It also looks like streetcars are still in the running for the west line, but light rail is out because of the cost. I think streetcars will still provide enough the benefits associated with light rail, so this is a smart decision. It will also make it easier to tie into the downtown area, as it will simply be an extension of another planned streetcar line.

I hope whatever they do to remove stations is rational and doesn't hurt the chances for redevelopment, as that would reduce the economic benefit of the transit lines, which is part of the point of doing them in the first place.

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Again, I want to suggest that they consider running the Southeast line extended down to the west corridor, but possibly running it as a streetcar like the Green Line in boston (subway->streetcar).

I think they will need the capacity, plus it cuts down on transfers. Overtime I would want them to upgrade to a true LRT. I love streetcars, but I wouldn't trust one to get me to the airport on time as they still are affected by traffic.

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if the west line is streetcar, wouldn't they just be able to make an extension of the central ave line, or one of the other spurs?

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The problem in my opinion with that is that you start getting too many trains going down trade....you have the southeast line to the Gateway Multi-modal, the Central Ave. line to Beatties Ford, the Central Ave. to the Airport, then the two Center city circulator lines.......

Also, I'm not sure how efficient it is to run two Central Ave. lines, though it is the most popular bus route in the system.

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Private contributors may be able to step in after the fact and build amenities at the stations cheaper, anyway.

I remember a situation once in a rural area, when a storm washed out a county bridge. The county said it would cost a huge sum of money to replace, and wanted to levy a massive assessment on the residents. The people got together and built the bridge themselves for substantially less. (Coarsegold California, around 1993) Then they drove around with bumper stickers that read: "I paid for the bridge" :P

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maybe this is too far out of the box... but maybe the SE line should get a streetcar line down monroe rd and just regular busses down independence.

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They studied that for LRT and BRT and determined that it would have an extremely severe impact on traffic because of the loss of two lanes.

With streetcars, you don't necessarily end up losing lanes, but that's an awfully long corridor with an awful lot of stoplights for running streetcars in mixed traffic.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Does Indenpendence need to be rail or busway?

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The transit comission is trying to not "shrift" the southeast, but I think in the end, money will force their hand-- and it will be a busway.

The northeast line is pretty dubious too beyond the 29/49 split, even based on CATs rideship projections. But it stands a better chance since it's an extension of the south line.

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